KX Thameslink Old tunnel

Discussion in 'Infrastructure & Stations' started by ole man, 26 Sep 2011.

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  1. ole man

    ole man Member

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    P1000718 - Copy.jpg This one of the old tunnels from Kings Cross to Moorgate,you can access these tunnels off York way, when were they closed?.
    And they would come in useful now, as they would be doing to same thing as the new Canal Tunnels at St Pancras International
     
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  3. nlogax

    nlogax Established Member

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    That looks to me like the entrance to the York Road curve just beyond the platforms of what used to be Kings Cross Thameslink. This and Hotel Curve were closed in 1977.

    Sincerely doubt either tunnel could be used now with all the reconstruction in the area. I read somewhere - possibly Clive Feather's site - that Hotel Curve now contains a gas main.
     
  4. jopsuk

    jopsuk Veteran Member

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    the surface portal is clearly visible from trains arriving/departing at Kings Cross.
     
  5. ole man

    ole man Member

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    You are right, there is a tunnel that splits half way down,that was the first one the other is just off the platform edge at kx thameslink.
    Where is hotel curve? i work down there every week and would have a look
     
  6. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

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    The various utilities in the rump of the Hotel Curve aren't strictly the biggest problem, as you point out the various levels of the LU Northern Ticket Hall and the new development alongside the suburban shed would be a bit harder to resolve.

    But in any case even if the tunnels had been useable, they would incur the flat crossing penalties that the new diveunder north of St Pancras LL removes. Also, 12 car trains off the GN wouldn't have had a station to stop at between Finsbury Park and Farringdon, as it was decided KX Thameslink couldn't ever be upgraded to modern standards on its existing site.
     
  7. A0wen

    A0wen Established Member

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    Have to say if you look at the video of the railtour going into the tunnel at York Road that the clearance looks pretty tight - I doubt OHL would have been possible there without some pretty serious re-engineering.

    Not sure where the site of the old northbound tunnel is now - seems to have disappeared under many years of development in the KX area.
     
  8. ole man

    ole man Member

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    There is one tunnel as the video pionts out,that splits into two further down, my picture is the one that splits off, the other tunnel comes out just north off KX Thameslink platforms.
    Was there another tunnel the other side somewhere? that came out the opposite side at Kings Cross?
     
  9. hairyhandedfool

    hairyhandedfool Established Member

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    The lines between Finsbury Park and Farringdon ran either side of Kings Cross. The southbound line went through Kings cross York Road on the eastern side of Kings Cross. The northbound line ran down the western side of Kings Cross.
     
  10. ole man

    ole man Member

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    In that case i have never seen the northbound tunnel,where did it come out? KX Thameslink like the southbound?
    I'm down there next weekend i will have a proper look
     
  11. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

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    You won't find any traces of the northern part anymore, as I mentioned earlier (in post #6) the LU northern ticket hall, and the commercial development (Kings Cross Central) immediately west of the suburban shed have obliterated the vast majority of the Hotel Curve tunnel, and the site of its portal, ramp and platform. When it closed, northbound trains used platform 14 - significantly outside the current station footprint...

    The southern end of the Hotel Curve made another east facing flat junction with the Midland lines, just east of the present Circle Line station - but I've never seen any sign of it recently, at least from passing Thameslink trains. It's possible it has been blocked up during the many changes in the area since the various phases of LU improvements have been underway. Is your photo in post #1 the southern end of the Hotel Curve? If not it must be the other one (York Rd curve) which is immediately off the end of the up platform at the closed KX Thameslink...
     
    Last edited: 1 Oct 2011
  12. Oracle

    Oracle Established Member

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    Am I right in thinking that that blocked-off tunnel is in fact Hotel Curve, which lead up, via a steep gradient, to the old P14 Suburban platform?

    http://www.harsig.org/PDF/CircleWidened.pdf

    shows you the old arrangement.
     
  13. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

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    I now think it is, based on ole man's info at post#8.

    When he refers to a tunnel that 'splits off', I think he's heading south (in the up direction) along the York Road curve towards KX Thameslink. As built, this did have a split, with another curve (the Maiden Lane Curve or Western Branch) that joined the Met/Circle line heading west - but according to my old Railway Magazine articles from 1962, it is believed this was never used, and had been filled in by 1868, when the Midland link tunnels were opened.
     
  14. hairyhandedfool

    hairyhandedfool Established Member

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    The web page in Yorkie's first link has a map that shows roughly where the old lines went.
     
    Last edited: 1 Oct 2011
  15. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

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    I've attached a scanned picture from 1962, might help with the overall layout:
     

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  16. hairyhandedfool

    hairyhandedfool Established Member

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    Okay so, is the op's picture taken further into the tunnel than I first thought. I reckoned it was at KX T/link but if not then that is the Northbound tunnel in the picture.
     
  17. jon0844

    jon0844 Veteran Member

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    Fascinating, and rather surreal to see all those 313s and think that I am probably using all of them regularly to this day! They must have seemed so modern at the time.
     
  18. Peter Mugridge

    Peter Mugridge Established Member

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    I spotted someone I was at school with in there! At 00:31. Not 100% sure it is who I think it is, but I can't see it being anyone else!:)


    Edited to add: Ask around amongst some old pupils of the same school year, they don't think it is him although they do agree he does look very much like him in all respects. Doppelganger!
     
    Last edited: 2 Oct 2011
  19. westcoaster

    westcoaster Established Member

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    The op's picture is actually the north bound portal, the southbound one is just of the end of kings cross st pancras platform. The southbound portal has a lot of work in it recently, infect last week while heading north there was a BCM transit van in it, so it is still accessible.
     
  20. ole man

    ole man Member

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    You can drive down the tunnels,they haven't been touched,the cabling routes are still there,i go down there every week.
    The picture is a said above,drive down towards KX Thameslink the tunnel splits off to the right that is what the picture is of, but form the other side.
    The tunnel carries on to KX Thameslink station which is the one westcoaster seen the BCM van who are putting up the new signals for phase 1.
    Let me get this straight then the one that you can see from KX Thamelink is the southern tunnel? and the one the picture is of is the northern tunnel?.
    Somebody said above that the northern tunnel was on the opposite side of Kings Cross station
     
  21. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

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    It came out on the opposite (west) side of Kings Cross suburban station - but I'd estimate the disused junction is under Euston Rd, and probably just about in line with York Way. The route followed a smooth curve completely outside the footprint of the main station - it would have run between the SW corner of the station and the Great Northern hotel.

    When you say you can drive down 'the tunnels' (ie more than one) can you explain where the second one is on that diagram I posted earlier? Is there now access to the Maiden Lane curve, which is shown as a stub with no track off the York Rd curve because it was filled in at that time. From what you are describing perhaps it has been opened up again recently - but it was never part of the operational connection between the GN and the lines towards Moorgate.

    I found another picture, of a 3D model. The Thameslink lines are Green, and you can clearly see the widened section with the Hotel Curve in white heading off round the corner of the station. The disused tunnel that comes down York Way is the Maiden Lane curve, previously filled in, and the southbound York Rd curve would be off the picture at the bottom right corner. Hope this helps...
     

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    Last edited: 1 Oct 2011
  22. ole man

    ole man Member

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    Your map makes sense to me looking at it, but it is missing the split, i going to agree with you that the split must be the maiden lane curve.
    You can walk or even drive down there until you hit the metal sheeting you can see in my picture(taken from other side).
    Network rail have put up new OLE structures and new LOC boxes so they might of used it for access.
    I'm down there this weekend and will get proper pictures of the split from york road tunnel.
    If it is maiden lane curve, where is the northbound tunnel, i'm assuming it would be further north towards St Pancras.
     
  23. Bedpan

    Bedpan Member

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    The layout in SWT Passenger's map is virtually the same now, except that of course there's no track in the York Road curve and Hotel Curve tunnels, and the centre track in the Circle Line platforms at Kings Cross St Pancras underground station has now been filled in. I remember looking across to York Road station when I spotted at Kings Cross as a kid, and also seeing trains emerging from the Hotel Curve tunnel on the other side of the station. Both of the tunnels are quite easily seen when travelling between Kings Cross Thameslink and St Pancras.

    I've never heard of the Maiden Lane curve though. From the map, it looks as though it diverged from the York Road curve just inside the tunnel ie just after leaving York Road station, but where did it end up. on what is now the Thameslink line, or did it connect up to the Circle/Metropolitan line? And if so, how did it cross the Thameslink line?

    Off at a tangent a bit, but in the same area - about 7 or 8 years ago (it would have been not long before the line was severed for the building of St Pancras Low Level box) I remember the tunnel being illuminated for some way beyond Kings Cross Thameslink, as far as a recess with what looked like a spiral staircase rising up from it. Does anybody know about the existance of this staircase, and where it led to? I assume that it would have come out in St Pancras station somewhere.
     
  24. ole man

    ole man Member

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    This might intrest you, there is a site that has pictures of St Pancras tunnel signal box, in it they mention a illuminated spiral staircase, which they did before all traces of was removed.


    THE SIGNAL BOX • View topic - St Pancras Tunnel


    www.signalbox.org › ... › Signalling discussion › Signalling - historical



    15 posts - 6 authors - Last post: 17 Jun 2010
    Situated in the tunnel between St Pauls Road Junction and the junction with the ... on a single-stroke bell seen to the right of the illuminated diagram. .... Cross York Road platform, at the entrance to that tunnel down to 'the Met
     
  25. ess

    ess Member

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    i never knew about the hotel curve despite using kings cross for years. i always hoped the kings cross redevelopment would move platforms 9-11 further south so it wasn't such a walk. where did the hotel curve emerge?
     
  26. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

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    I've explained this earlier in the thread (post #21). The Hotel Curve appeared alongside the long gone platform 14 (at closure) which was parallel to the remaining suburban platforms but significantly further west. Shown in this attachment:
     

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    Last edited: 3 Oct 2011
  27. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

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    The only remaining part of the northbound tunnel is shown on this map extract, from the Kings Cross planning drawings. It is the wider, and more curved, of the two tunnels marked - the other is the culverted Fleet sewer.

    As I posted earlier you won't see anything on the ground north of the SW corner of the train shed.
     

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  28. ole man

    ole man Member

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    Can you send me all the maps, diagrams you have on this section?
    I love old disused tunnels, and want to try and trace and get to the bottom of the tunnels' this weekend
     
  29. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

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    As built (1863) it crossed the Hotel Curve just before making a flat junction with the west bound Met/Circle line - the Midland lines were not yet built at the time, and once they were, only a few years later in 1868, the Maiden Lane curve was reported to be filled in. A sketch of the time:
     

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    Last edited: 3 Oct 2011
  30. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

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    PM sent...
     
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