Labour to offer free bus travel to Under 25’s

[njtruscott]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-voters-pledge-offer-25s-free-bus-travel.html

Labour will try and woo young voters and pledge to offer the under-25s free bus travel after using £1.4billion from Britain's roads fund

• The Labour leader will today launch another bid to entice young voters
• The Tories called the offer a 'bribe' and claimed it would cost up to £13billion
• Mr Corbyn will say: ‘Labour wants to help young people make the most out of life by investing in them'

Mr Corbyn will say that young people ‘deserve a break’ and the offer will allow them to ‘travel to work, to study and to visit friends’.

The policy also comes with strings attached. To qualify for cash to pay for free travel, councils will have to abolish privately run bus services in their area....

 

[overthewater]

How? IF there wont properly fund the current scheme, this is non starter..

 

[transmanche]

How? IF there wont properly fund the current scheme, this is non starter..

All is explained in the article...

 

[goldisgood]

"The policy also comes with strings attached. To qualify for cash to pay for free travel, councils will have to abolish privately run bus services in their area.
Instead, they will be forced to run the bus services themselves or impose franchise systems. Millions of young people could miss out if their town halls refuse to impose the Left wing doctrine."
And how much extra will this cost councils? Councils which are strapped for money to maintain roads?

"The money will initially come from the budget used to maintain Britain’s roads, which have been described as being in the worst condition for years and riddled with potholes after the winter storms and snow."
This may be more widespread, but in Oxfordshire drivers are having to swerve to avoid potholes on major roads, and there was an accident recently where a lorry hit a pothole and bounced off a flyover. The roads budget needs increasing, not reducing.

Also, would reimbursement rates be fair? This could potentially lead to even more cuts.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Millions of young people could miss out if their town halls refuse to impose the Left wing doctrine.

Franchising is a left wing doctrine now, is it?

The Mail really are a parody of themselves.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Also, would reimbursement rates be fair? This could potentially lead to even more cuts.

It appears to come hand in hand with Council revenue risk, so that doesn't really apply.

 

[overthewater]

All is explained in the article...

Very poorly it would seem since The £1.4bn policy would be paid for by cash from vehicle excise duty currently earmarked for road improvements. That's stupid....

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Very poorly it would seem since The £1.4bn policy would be paid for by cash from vehicle excise duty currently earmarked for road improvements. That's stupid....

Indeed. I want more people on buses but I get very nervous when politicians start getting involved in things they barely understand and for populist grandstanding.

 

[dgl]

I suppose the theory is that if u25's don't need cars then with less cars on the road they won't wear out as quickly meaning less money is needed to keep them in good condition.
Plus if it is properly funded might help the viability of some services.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I suppose the theory is that if u25's don't need cars then with less cars on the road they won't wear out as quickly meaning less money is needed to keep them in good condition.
Plus if it is properly funded might help the viability of some services.

But will hurt the railways.

I'd rather see an all-modes scheme within a restricted local area.

 

[overthewater]

You still need to fix the current awful roads...isn't they stories of gangs or youth just using buses as club houses..

 

[transmanche]

Also, would reimbursement rates be fair? This could potentially lead to even more cuts.

You answered your own question. The scheme will only be available with (TfL-style) route contracts, so no 'reimbursement' is required.

It's because of this system that children under 18 (and 18 year-olds still in full-time education) living in London travel free on TfL buses already.

 

[Dentonian]

Franchising is a left wing doctrine now, is it?

The Mail really are a parody of themselves.

Anything to stop the rich from profiting from making the poor poorer is "left wing" doctrine to the freeloaders in Fleet Street (or Canary Wharf) or whichever part of the M25 bubble they occupy nowadays.

 

[embers25]

This is literally the stupidest, least thought through and blatant vote grabbing idea Corbyn has had to date and is guaranteed to lead to less bus services and more revenue loss from councils. Another 'fully costed' idea like student loan cancellation....sigh. I appreciate he wants to buy back absolutely everything but when we go into a shop we all want everything on the shelf but we are clever enough to realise that's not possible so why isn't he?

 

[Dentonian]

Timely reminder for me as to why I will not be wasting a second of my life voting on 3rd May.

1. Despite evidence that giving free transport to under 18s in London led to an immediate increase in ASB on buses, Andy Burnham followed suit here - with exactly the same results. Further, the message is that for all their protestations back in the 80s, Labour continually enforce Thatcher/Duchess of Westminster's diatribe that People aged 26-60 (or is it 64, or is it 68?) should not be using Buses.
2. They have deliberately stated that the money will come from the budget earmarked for Road maintenance. Corbyn knows that this will further antagonise the Motoring lobby and their allies in the Media (not just the Daily Mail), leading to further demonising of bus users (of all ages). Though, surely he also knows it will cost him Council seats in the Local Elections, as (apparently), Potholes are by far the most important issue at a Council level in the North West, at least.

OTOH, we have an own goal from Nusrat Ghani, who is supposed to be the BUS Minister, who claims subsidising fares for under 30s on RAIL is more balanced than free fares on Buses.

I don't know if its just a local saying, but herabouts its often said that if a Politician (of any party) was on fire, we wouldn't cross the road to p**s on them.

 

[transmanche]

This is literally the stupidest, least thought through and blatant vote grabbing idea Corbyn has had to date and is guaranteed to lead to less bus services and more revenue loss from councils.

How is it 'guaranteed' to mean fewer bus services? Bearing in mind it will only happen when route contracting schemes are in place, you might want to consider that bus mileage operated in London has increased by over 60% over the past 25 years.

 

[AJW12]

I couldn't agree more. This idea is ridiculous and as a young person I couldn't care less about this. As a recent graduate working in London; firstly - this wouldn't do anything for me anyway. The tube is already very expensive at peak to the extent that about £1,600 a year of my income goes on tube fares.

If anything this kind of nonsense I find incredibly patronising to young people like myself. I don't need to be given free bus travel, I'm perfectly happy paying back a tuition fee etc. It's a magic money tree that will just spiral, and result in us all needing to pay much higher taxes (since apparently anyone that's worked hard to get a good income is now deemed rich and ought to be taxed to the max). I don't need a christmas list of things offered me for free. Just leave me alone - I'll decide what to spend my own money on, since I'm working every day to earn it.

 

[Astradyne]

How is it 'guaranteed' to mean fewer bus services? Bearing in mind it will only happen when route contracting schemes are in place, you might want to consider that bus mileage operated in London has increased by over 60% over the past 25 years.

But since free travel for kids has been introduced revenues has fallen a mileage cuts have been taken place ... reportedly another 7% due. Increasing it to 25 will just make the financial situation of TfL even more dire than it currently is.

This cuts are on top of about a 7% cut to mileage over past 12-18 months and a lot larger cut to the night bus network.

 

[ChathillMan]

£1.4 Billion. Overall over the lifetime of the policy or every year?

 

[transmanche]

As a recent graduate working in London; firstly - this wouldn't do anything for me anyway. The tube is already very expensive at peak to the extent that about £1,600 a year of my income goes on tube fares.

If anything this kind of nonsense I find incredibly patronising to young people like myself. I don't need to be given free bus travel

It's great that you don't need to benefit from this (and assuming that you have a Travelcard, you wouldn't benefit from it anyway). But not everyone is in such a fortunate position.

Already these groups receive free or reduced fare bus travel in London:

• All children under 11
• All children under 16 with a Zip card
• All London-resident children under 18 with a Zip card
• All London-resident children aged 18 and in full-time education with a Zip card
  
• All London-resident first-year Apprentices with an Apprentice Oyster Card(30% discount on weekly/monthly tickets)
• All London-resident Students with an 18+ Student Oyster Card (30% discount on weekly/monthly tickets)
  
• All holders of a Jobcentre Plus Travel Discount Card (50% discount on PAYG and weekly/monthly tickets)
• All London-resident holders of a Bus & Tram Discount Card, available to those on certain benefits (50% discount on PAYG and weekly/monthly tickets)
  
• All London residents aged 60+ with a 60+ Oyster Card
• All ENCTS pass holders, at any time
• Certain London-resident military veterans with a Veterans Oyster Card
• All wheelchair users, at any time

Oh and everyone benefits from free bus travel for second and subsequent journeys within 60 minutes. All this is only possible because of the route contracting system used by TfL.

Young people under 21 aren't entitled to the National Living Wage, so discounted or free bus fares seems quite a reasonable proposition.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Another 'fully costed' idea like student loan cancellation....sigh.

Straying way off topic here, but student funding is a long-time professional expertise of mine.

Students are charged interest at RPI+3% from the day they start studying, but they cannot repay until the April following their leaving the course. That can be three years of above-inflation interest charges. After that, interest is charged at RPI.

Repayments are set as a percentage based on your income, not on your loan amount. Interest is compounded. Student loans are cancelled after 30 years, with any outstanding balance written off.

There is a bell curve of repayment levels. Those who earn little will repay little, and will have barely make a dent on the capital, never mind the interest, before the 30 years are up. Those who earn megabucks, or have substantial wealth behind them, will clear the loan within a few years, saving themselves a fortune in interest. There is, however, a really toxic spot for people earning about £40,000-50,000/year (current wages) where they will repay all the capital AND 30 years of compound interest just before the 30 years are up. These upper-middle earners are getting absolutely rinsed under the current scheme.

Martin Lewis' calculator makes the point very clearly. With a starting wage of £25,000 (and with assumptions about inflation, promotion, etc) you'll repay about £20,000 before the 30 years are up. Do well for yourself, start with a wage of £40,000, and you'll repay £110,000. Earn £47,000 and you'll repay £151,000. But earn £60,000 and you'll repay £100,000. It drops off quickly from there.

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/students/student-finance-calculator

I continue to be astounded and amazed that the people who are the ones getting absolutely and shamelessly rinsed under this mess of a scheme are the ones who are most loudly shouting down Corbyn for the suggestion. It won't make much difference to the poor- they either don't repay at all, or are paying £20 a month back. It's neither here nor there. But for those on 40-50 grand a year, it will literally save them a hundred grand in today's money. Corbyn is offering them the money to literally buy a house, yet they shout him down as a rich-hating Trot Commie *******.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's great that you don't need to benefit from this (and assuming that you have a Travelcard, you wouldn't benefit from it anyway). But not everyone is in such a fortunate position.

Already these groups receive free or reduced fare bus travel in London:

• All children under 11
• All children under 16 with a Zip card
• All London-resident children under 18 with a Zip card
• All London-resident children aged 18 and in full-time education with a Zip card
  
• All London-resident first-year Apprentices with an Apprentice Oyster Card(30% discount on weekly/monthly tickets)
• All London-resident Students with an 18+ Student Oyster Card (30% discount on weekly/monthly tickets)
  
• All holders of a Jobcentre Plus Travel Discount Card (50% discount on PAYG and weekly/monthly tickets)
• All London-resident holders of a Bus & Tram Discount Card, available to those on certain benefits (50% discount on PAYG and weekly/monthly tickets)
  
• All London residents aged 60+ with a 60+ Oyster Card
• All ENCTS pass holders, at any time
• Certain London-resident military veterans with a Veterans Oyster Card
• All wheelchair users, at any time

Oh and everyone benefits from free bus travel for second and subsequent journeys within 60 minutes. All this is only possible because of the route contracting system used by TfL.

Young people under 21 aren't entitled to the National Living Wage, so discounted or free bus fares seems quite a reasonable proposition.

I wonder how many more you'd need to add before it was worth simply making London bus travel free for everyone.

 

[transmanche]

I wonder how many more you'd need to add before it was worth simply making London bus travel free for everyone.

That was the ultimate aim of the GLC's Fares Fair programme back in the 1980s. More people using public transport meant fewer people using cars. Result = less congestion, less pollution, fewer deaths/serious injuries on the roads.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I'm perfectly happy paying back a tuition fee etc

I don't think you would be if you truly knew how much it cost. You could buy a three-bed semi up here for how much it'll cost someone on £50,000 a year.

Corbyn hates the middle class

 

[tbtc]

As far as headlines go, this is one of the more sensible Corbyn policies.

If you are interested in redistribution (both in terms of social classes and generations) and improving access to employment and some well meaning stuff about "social justice" then this makes a lot more sense than the usual Corbyn obsession with rail nationalisation/ freezing train prices (which predominantly benefit older/ richer people). Buses aren't as "sexy", they won't get so many headlines, but they are the first tool I'd reach for if I was serious about trying to bring about the kind of transport improvements (and changing other things through society) that Corbyn claims that he wants to bring about. Simple local improvements.

If you are interested in redistribution and the likes then you'd probably leave Student Loans alone for the short/medium term too - they are actually a fairly progressive tax (despite the left wing hatred for them) - people on below average wages pay nothing, people on above average wages pay a bit and people who make huge money pay much larger sums back. It's easy to trumpet headlines about Students being "£100,000 in debt", but looking at the actual detail shows that very few people will have to pay back the lion's share of that sum - and only the students who've gone on to earn the most.

The problem I have with the Corbyn proposal is that it falls apart after only a cursory glance. We have cash strapped councils that don't have resources for libraries/ Sure Starts/ weekly bin collections etc (with most of their money going no further than covering the Social Care budget) but we're going to trust them to run bus companies - and make any council that refuses to take on this issue look like they are against under-25s?

And he's going to do this by making motorists hate bus passengers even more than they already do? Taking money from what is seen as a "road repairs" budget is going to go down very badly politically.

I can sympathise with the idea. I think that there are certainly some areas where fares for school aged kids have gone up disproportionately now that they aren't linked to OAP fares (post ENCTS etc). School aged kids can be cash strapped compared to Baby Boomers who have had decades to save money (but who get free bus fares). I'm all in favour of helping younger people access jobs/ education/ healthcare etc through public transport. It sounds good. But there has to be a better way of doing it than this. And also, whilst this may sound petty, I don't think that public transport should necessarily be "free" - it's a quality product, it should sometimes compete on quality - giving it away for free makes it look downmarket and otherwise undesirable.

 

[goldisgood]

It's great that you don't need to benefit from this (and assuming that you have a Travelcard, you wouldn't benefit from it anyway). But not everyone is in such a fortunate position.

Already these groups receive free or reduced fare bus travel in London:

• All children under 11
• All children under 16 with a Zip card
• All London-resident children under 18 with a Zip card
• All London-resident children aged 18 and in full-time education with a Zip card
  
• All London-resident first-year Apprentices with an Apprentice Oyster Card(30% discount on weekly/monthly tickets)
• All London-resident Students with an 18+ Student Oyster Card (30% discount on weekly/monthly tickets)
  
• All holders of a Jobcentre Plus Travel Discount Card (50% discount on PAYG and weekly/monthly tickets)
• All London-resident holders of a Bus & Tram Discount Card, available to those on certain benefits (50% discount on PAYG and weekly/monthly tickets)
  
• All London residents aged 60+ with a 60+ Oyster Card
• All ENCTS pass holders, at any time
• Certain London-resident military veterans with a Veterans Oyster Card
• All wheelchair users, at any time

Oh and everyone benefits from free bus travel for second and subsequent journeys within 60 minutes. All this is only possible because of the route contracting system used by TfL.

Young people under 21 aren't entitled to the National Living Wage, so discounted or free bus fares seems quite a reasonable proposition.

The route contracting system which has more subsidy than all other bus subsidies in the UK put together?

 

[Robertj21a]

Always easy for any politician in opposition to promise the world when there's little likelihood of ever being in a position to deliver.

 

[transmanche]

The route contracting system which has more subsidy than all other bus subsidies in the UK put together?

And results in way more passengers than all other buses in the UK put together, thus meaning the net subsidy per passenger journey is about 2/3 the level of other metropolitan areas in England. And a fair chunk of that subsidy comes from the Congestion Charge, none now comes from Central Government.

It all depends on whether you consider local bus transport to be a socially beneficial public service or not.

 

[Dentonian]

But will hurt the railways.

.

Oh! Dear. Can't have that, what a reversal of 30 years Transport policy that would be.

 

[Mikey C]

A nice sounding headline BUT this will only happen if council effectively either run the buses themselves or have a London style tendering system. Both MASSIVE changes and far more complicated than the headline grabbing act of free travel for under 25s.

Even if a council wanted to do this, how long would it take to implement?