Labour to offer free bus travel to Under 25’s

[Bletchleyite]

so let's get Mr Corbyn's latest idea straight shall we? he wants to scrap bus fares for under 25's free does he? for what purpose? to make society fairer? ok so a 24 yr old earning 35k a year can travel free.... but a 26 yr old on minimum wage will still have to pay... how is that fair?

also I wonder who costed this daft idea? Dianne Abbott?

The most likely answer is "to bribe younger millennials and post-millennials who are angry about what the boomers are getting".

Unfortunately, it's not the boomers who pay, it's the older millennials and younger Gen-X - i.e. me.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

The most likely answer is "to bribe younger millennials and post-millennials who are angry about what the boomers are getting".

Unfortunately, it's not the boomers who pay, it's the older millennials and younger Gen-X - i.e. me.

It's a strange world we live in.. I was born in 69 and was brought up to ask "what can I give" when did the world start asking "what can I get"?

Quite apart from the total nonsense of the idea, and the funding... has Mr Corbyn thought about the poor old bus driver in this? it's bloody well hard enough to tell the difference between a 15yr old and a 17 yr old... how the hell are bus drivers meant to tell the difference between a 24yr old and a 34 yr old? ask for a birth certificate?

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's a strange world we live in.. I was born in 69 and was brought up to ask "what can I give" when did the world start asking "what can I get"?

Quite apart from the total nonsense of the idea, and the funding... has Mr Corbyn thought about the poor old bus driver in this? it's bloody well hard enough to tell the difference between a 15yr old and a 17 yr old... how the hell are bus drivers meant to tell the difference between a 24yr old and a 34 yr old? ask for a birth certificate?

Most likely a version of the ENCTS card would be issued. No card? Fare please.

 

[Mwanesh]

Politicians think they know best. Corbyn has been an MP for 34 years and has never done a days work. He thinks money grows on trees.

People need to learn to save. If we are to give everything for free then we will tax the working class to death.

People keep talking of London; let's see how they fare now they don't get subsidy. It's the capital for Christ's sake. Look at most towns; some have decent services.

 

[Dentonian]

I wasn't saying full commercial operation was preferable, I was saying that Councils under a regulated system still need a *bit* of motivation based on fares income of what the passenger wants rather than fulfilling solely political goals.



Unreliability is not inherent in tram systems, they are inherently more reliable than buses because they are far less affected by traffic and ticket sales delays.

I don't agree with you on transfer and waiting environments. Metrolink now very much looks up to the standard of a proper German Stadtbahn, while Greater Manchester's bus stations are improving all the time. What do you want? Indoor, heated waiting rooms with deep sprung armchairs for you to wait an average of 6 minutes?

I'm not talking theoretical "inherent" I'm talking real world. All rail systems, but especially electric ones" seem to fail spectacularly and regularly. Then there is the regular scheduled weekend shut downs of lines; the driving of cars onto lines causing service suspension for hours etc. etc. Reliability on buses varies depending on the attitudes of Operators and different circumstances. I suspect you are confusing reliabiliity with punctuality. For all my other criticisms of Stagecoach, reliabiliity remains good with very few buses actually not running at all. The problem is punctuality for various reasons - and not just at peak times. In short, if you have a problem on a bus, you might get delayed 5, 10 or 15 minutes. On rail, the delay in proportion to the scheduled journey time is FAR worse, and no less rare. Interestingly, you mention 6 minutes wait - what I have noticed when travelling by Metrolink (invariably, Piccadilly to Shudehill off-peak) is bunching. Like heavy rail, RTI often underestimates the wait, and I usually wait in Undercroft for 8 to 10 minutes to catch a tram across the city centre, and then another will be a couple of minutes behind!

As regards transfer and waiting environments. Suburban tram stops are just raised platforms with poor sheltering, cluttered by fellow passengers (city centre) or gangs (elsewhere). Bus Stations are not improving. Apart from solid seating (at least they don't move, so less of a threat to weakened spines), they are unpoliced outside the morning peak. Thus they are often full of yobs, or infiltrated by smokers and illegal cyclists - notably, apart from schools peak, none of these "people" are bus passengers. Then there is the transfer. How far will you walk between bus stop and rail/tram station? How many major roads will you cross - these things are time consuming on top of the "average wait", and what about the weather and again, anti-social behaviour; by far of which the biggest incidence is illegal cycling? Remember, you are asking commuters to do these things up to 500 times a year.
Sorry, the whole concept is 30, 40, even 50 years too late.

 

[goldisgood]

The problem with the concept of "poor seating" is that it's subjective. Many people prefer very hard seats shaped to their back. As I've said before I am quite a fan of the Fainsa "ironing board", whereas many on here hate it. It could just as easily be the case that Stagecoach specified a bus seat your back couldn't handle but Metrolink a seat that it could.

Agreed. My mum has a bad back and finds older train seats and car seats bad, but the Stagecoach Gold bus seats and new train seats completely fine!

 

[Dentonian]

Politicians think they know best.Corbyn has been an Mp for 34 years never done a days work.He thinks money grows on trees.People need to learn to save .If we are to give everything for free then we will tax the working class to death.People keep talking of London lets see how they fare now they dont get subsidy.Its the capital for Christs sake .Look at most towns some have decent services

Notwithstanding the point that people are happy for their taxes to go on Rail, but not on bus, I'm afraid the rest of your rant is a bit incoherent. I can only guess that you think London should be a "special case", and obviously your last point is a generalisation. Service levels, quality and fares vary greatly between relatively close catchment areas. Whilst London's flat fare of £1.50 might get you 4 or 5 miles from say, Swinton/Pendleton into and across Manchester, it won't get you 300 metres (one stop) in east Manchester or its neighbouring low car ownership boroughs such was NE Stockport or South Tameside. And yes, all services exemplified are Stagecoach.

 

[mmh]

I don't agree with you on transfer and waiting environments. Metrolink now very much looks up to the standard of a proper German Stadtbahn, while Greater Manchester's bus stations are improving all the time. What do you want? Indoor, heated waiting rooms with deep sprung armchairs for you to wait an average of 6 minutes?

I've no idea what a Stadtbahn is, but I do know what a Metrolink tram stop is - an elevated bus stop where you can quite easily be waiting 15 minutes.

 

[duncombec]

Oh dear, I am going to have to be be very disingenuous and disagree with you!

There would need to be an increase (sorry, there would need to be the very existance!) of policing to weedle out the 17 year olds using free transport to get to their drugs market or turf war without borrowing Daddy's BMW, from the decent hard working/studying teenager.

And they use their own cars when they turn 18? Quite aside from being insulting to teenagers, do you have any evidence to back this up, i.e. that free travel = an increase in anti-social behaviour?

The "funding" in terms of commercial (as against franchising) services won't catch on with Operators.

I'm not sure I follow your logic. In contrast to the "subsidy" of ENCTS passes, this is openly encouraging operators to self-promote: we're getting these new vehicles because we gave discounted travel to young people. A bit more catchy than "we're getting this money because the government makes us give the over 60's(ish) free travel."

 

[radamfi]

Isn't it actually now declining ?

Per capita usage is still way ahead of the other conurbations in the UK. More importantly, the proportion of trips by car continues to fall. If bus trips are replaced by tube or bike trips, that is not a worry.

 

[Dentonian]

I've no idea what a Stadtbahn is, but I do know what a Metrolink tram stop is - an elevated bus stop where you can quite easily be waiting 15 minutes.

S'not fair, I hate you ("Kevin and Perry"). I've spent 20 minutes on a detailed response, and you've succinctly put it in a short sentence.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

do you have any evidence to back this up, i.e. that free travel = an increase in anti-social behaviour?

er.... how about London as evidence that free travel for under 18's has caused an increase in anti-social behaviour on buses? ask any London bus driver or operator!

 

[Starmill]

people on below average wages pay nothing, people on above average wages pay a bit and people who make huge money pay much larger sums back.

While in general you're right, this last point is the opposite of the truth. Those who rise quickly though the ranks and earn much larger than average salaries can clear their debt quickly and avoid lots of interest payments. But this isn't the biggest thing. The key is that those from the wealthiest families will have much smaller loans or no loan at all in the first place. Their fees and living costs will be paid in part or in full up front. This became even worse after the removal of maintenance grants.

I paid more than 6% interest for a time on my almost £40,000 loan, while earning ~£0. Some commercial money lending is cheaper than that... I was also charged a penalty rate for a couple of months because they claimed that some documents I posted them never arrived. How convenient!

The key thing I want the government to do is what they promised originally, which is to increase the £21,000 repayment threshold in line with inflation. The same rate they charge the interest at (ideally CPI for both). They should also increase it now using the back dated inflation too, although even if they do that the higher payments some people have already made will still stand. This is very unlikely to happen!

 

[Dentonian]

Oh dear, I am going to have to be be very disingenuous and disagree with you!



And they use their own cars when they turn 18? Quite aside from being insulting to teenagers, do you have any evidence to back this up, i.e. that free travel = an increase in anti-social behaviour?



I'm not sure I follow your logic. In contrast to the "subsidy" of ENCTS passes, this is openly encouraging operators to self-promote: we're getting these new vehicles because we gave discounted travel to young people. A bit more catchy than "we're getting this money because the government makes us give the over 60's(ish) free travel."

When free travel for under 16s was introduced in London, there was a reported 16% increase in the first year. We've only had it in Gtr. Manchester for a few months, but the circumstantial evidence is mounting, with a resurrection of brick attacks and driver/passenger assualts/intimidation in a number of areas. I did make it clear in another response that it doesn't apply to all teenagers. What I suspect is happening is that individual yobs and gangs are committing far more crimes. I also accept, that the principle probably reduces into the 20s, but it is amazing how many reports of (non pecuniary) crimes in the media refer to "teenagers" and then weeks later, follow up reports say "Police arrested three people, aged 28, 27 and 14" or similar.

 

[mmh]

er.... how about London as evidence that free travel for under 18's has caused an increase in anti-social behaviour on buses? ask any London bus driver or operator!

It also means buses are often (genuinely) full with under 18s taking 200 yard journeys which just wouldn't happen otherwise, especially around school leaving time. (A problem not helped by the London practice of sending your child to a school miles away rather than the one around the corner)

I'm not against subsidising travel for children, I think it's a good idea, just making it free has potential issues. Keep it paid but with a very reduced child fare and a lot of the pointless journeys and anti-social behaviour would probably disappear.

 

[radamfi]

As regards standing up - which I do on Metrolink, given that I only ever use it in the city centre - how long is an acceptable period for standing on public transport?

I don't think there is an any particular length of time that is acceptable, but standing up is a normal thing that happens on city transport systems outside of the UK. People disembark along the way so whilst there may be standees along much of the route, an individual passenger may not be standing up for that long.

 

[duncombec]

It also means buses are often (genuinely) full with under 18s taking 200 yard journeys which just wouldn't happen otherwise, especially around school leaving time. (A problem not helped by the London practice of sending your child to a school miles away rather than the one around the corner)

As opposed to the hoardes of free-paying pensioners who travel one stop from the Bingo Hall (at one end of the High Street) to the Bus Station (at the other)? Free travel generally seems to encourage short distance travel: after all, why wouldn't you?

I'm not against subsidising travel for children, I think it's a good idea, just making it free has potential issues. Keep it paid but with a very reduced child fare and a lot of the pointless journeys and anti-social behaviour would probably disappear.

Exactly. I'd be very interested to know whether the number of concessionary passholders taking the bus two or three stops in my area increased when the ENCTS pass was increased as supposed to when they had to pay 20p a journey.

 

[radamfi]

But what are incomes like, and general costing of transport?

Certainly fares are not as high as the UK when cost of living is taken into account, especially when comparing trips involving transfers. But transport in Switzerland and Germany is generally higher quality than neighbouring countries which have very low fares.

Children generally start paying adult fare at age 12 in most European countries and free travel for the elderly only exists in certain cities and countries.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Certainly fares are not as high as the UK when cost of living is taken into account, especially when comparing trips involving transfers. But transport in Switzerland and Germany is generally higher quality than neighbouring countries which have very low fares.

Swiss fares are quite low if you have a half-fare card. The near ubiquity of this is essentially a tourist tax, not dissimilar to the way you have to buy a year's worth of motorway use even if you want only a day.

(FWIW I'd be very much in support of copying the Swiss motorway vignette system here too - as well as the Halbtax!)

 

[duncombec]

When free travel for under 16s was introduced in London, there was a reported 16% increase in the first year. We've only had it in Gtr. Manchester for a few months, but the circumstantial evidence is mounting, with a resurrection of brick attacks and driver/passenger assualts/intimidation in a number of areas. I did make it clear in another response that it doesn't apply to all teenagers. What I suspect is happening is that individual yobs and gangs are committing far more crimes. I also accept, that the principle probably reduces into the 20s, but it is amazing how many reports of (non pecuniary) crimes in the media refer to "teenagers" and then weeks later, follow up reports say "Police arrested three people, aged 28, 27 and 14" or similar.

I'll take that (in any case more than "ask a bus driver"). Although as with all things, I suppose it depends on how many more incidents were reported knowing they could blame teenagers as supposed to how many more actually happened. If my area is anything to go by, there is an uptick in "external" (i.e. brick throwing) incidents just after the clocks go back every year, which soon fizzles out once they get their "kick". In any case, we are meant to have intelligence-led policing these days, which would suggest focusing on those individuals.

 

[WelshBluebird]

The problem with under 18s getting free/subsidised travel is the increase in anti Social behaviour, whether on the bus itself or easier access to gang inspired targets (eg. turf wars)

So you revoke the free travel in that case.
(I don't actually support the policy btw, but ASB really isn't a reason against it).

 

[mmh]

So you revoke the free travel in that case.
(I don't actually support the policy btw, but ASB really isn't a reason against it).

Revoking free travel wouldn't work well, or at least doesn't look like it would in London. What happens is drivers are so conditioned / browbreaten into letting kids on without their passes to avoid the inevitable argument and grief that very few will stand their ground, and those that do might even get abuse from the adults for doing the correct thing and delaying the bus rather than letting them on.

I appreciate not everywhere is as horrendously mannered as London, though.

 

[Dentonian]

It also means buses are often (genuinely) full with under 18s taking 200 yard journeys which just wouldn't happen otherwise, especially around school leaving time. (A problem not helped by the London practice of sending your child to a school miles away rather than the one around the corner)

And not just London. This is increasingly happening in GM - certainly Tameside - with schools being closed to make way for houses and other "inapproriate" buildings based on the local demographics. Also, the crazy hours which means schools finishing at 1415-1430 causing heavy traffic, increased anti-social behaviour (kids hanging round for 3 hours instead of 1) and major poverty problems for single parents who don't want their kids hanging around (or are just too young).

 

[Bletchleyite]

I appreciate not everywhere is as horrendously mannered as London, though.

Very much not. In London people very much fear challenging kids, in smaller towns much less so.

 

[Dentonian]

I'll take that (in any case more than "ask a bus driver"). Although as with all things, I suppose it depends on how many more incidents were reported knowing they could blame teenagers as supposed to how many more actually happened. If my area is anything to go by, there is an uptick in "external" (i.e. brick throwing) incidents just after the clocks go back every year, which soon fizzles out once they get their "kick". In any case, we are meant to have intelligence-led policing these days, which would suggest focusing on those individuals.

I think it started with attacks on Metrolink (ironically in areas where Metrolink has seen off buses), but has now spread back to buses because Metrolink is politically higher profile, so they have more policing through "Travelsafe". Totally agree with the brick throwing season starting when the clocks go back, but it lasts throughout the Winter. It seems to be more a late(r) evening thing now and less predictable. For some weird reason when I worked closer with Operators, and travelled by bus much more in the evening, Thursdays were always worst, anytime between 1500 & 2100. Although, buses have been increasingly targetted, there is indeed a more general crime problem attributed to two extended families a few miles from me, but GMP seem powerless to do anything. Its a case of catch 'em, nick 'em, send 'em to magistrates and back out on the streets with a badge of honour and a small fine that will never get paid. And of course, bringing it back to the political aspect of this free fares offer 3 weeks before local elections; 10 years ago, such rises in crime would mean people turning to the Tories. Not any more. The party of "Law and Order" has slashed Police numbers by 30+% and given us a Justice system that is no longer "fit for purpose".

 

[Dentonian]

Very much not. In London people very much fear challenging kids, in smaller towns much less so.

Same in Greater Manchester......and not just the inner city either.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Same in Greater Manchester......and not just the inner city either.

Does seem very much a big city thing. Even in MK, which these days isn't small, there isn't this abject fear of kids there is in the bigger cities.

 

[Dentonian]

Does seem very much a big city thing. Even in MK, which these days isn't small, there isn't this abject fear of kids there is in the bigger cities.

No, my point is it isn't confined to the "city", it is the unpoliced suburbs, 6, 7, 8, and 10 miles from city centres.

 

[HSTEd]

Total bus revenue, including subsidies, in England, outside London is only £3.4bn/yr

Only £1990m of that was farebox income.

So essentially, for £2bn/yr we could abolish all bus fares in England, outside London.
The ASB argument is a read herring that verges on collective punishment - young people are to be penalised because it is believed that some of their number will behave "antisocially".

The economic and environmental benefits of removing bus fares are enormous.
It is the only way to reshape a car based economy.

This ofcourse ignores that bus operating efficiency would be improved as there would be no need to retain single door buses any longer.
All buses could have two or more sets of doors as required, there would also not need to be the enormous payment infrastructure that currently has to be maintained.

I wonder how much it costs to continuously issue huge numbers of ENTCS passings, and maintain all the readers and other equipment.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No, my point is it isn't confined to the "city", it is the unpoliced suburbs, 6, 7, 8, and 10 miles from city centres.

Yes, but they are part of the big city. In my experience it is much less of an issue in small to medium sized towns that are not joined to a big city, quite possibly for cultural reasons relating to the extent to which young people travel around and experience the big city and pick up attitudes from it.

Kids from MK don't get to go to London on their own by and large, for example. Kids from Croydon (say) quite possibly do (or do it anyway due to free bus travel).