Labour to offer free bus travel to Under 25’s

[Dai Corner]

50% of income? That's highly disciplined (but will give you an early and luxurious retirement!)

Not 50% of gross income throughout my working life, but enough to live modestly. Avoiding expensive things like children and divorces by not marrying helped! A heart attack due to stress at work a couple of years ago made my mind up that health was more important wealth so I retired. Sadly I wasn't granted an enhanced pension.

 

[JohnR]

State control. Two words that guarantee shoddy goods and service.

I've seen this comment (and similar) several times in this thread. Would anyone who believes this care to show evidence that this has happened in London, Edinburgh, Cardiff or Nottingham?

 

[radamfi]

State control. Two words that guarantee shoddy goods and service.

That's why all buses in the world outside London are deregulated and London has the worst buses in the world.

 

[PeterC]

That's why all buses in the world outside London are deregulated and London has the worst buses in the world.

Terrible service, every few minutes during the day and last buses after midnight. Not like the proper free enterprise bus service we get running hourly with last bus at tea time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

London, of course, has a very high bus demand due to using a car being rather close to purgatory.

It would genuinely be interesting to see what we would have had in London had it been privatised rather than deregulated. Perhaps something akin to Birmingham, being another very large city?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Terrible service, every few minutes during the day and last buses after midnight. Not like the proper free enterprise bus service we get running hourly with last bus at tea time.

Yes, and all for the same price with no vote winning promises of additional taxation.

 

[Tetchytyke]

It would genuinely be interesting to see what we would have had in London had it been privatised rather than deregulated. Perhaps something akin to Birmingham, being another very large city?

It would have been interesting, that's for sure. It would have depended on how it was privatised. Manchester's buses were split into different businesses, Birmingham's weren't.

Given how big London is, and given the depots were hived off into different companies, I'd have more expected a Manchester-style bus war, if I'm honest. And I think they did too, which is why they kept London buses regulated.

I'm sure people said the same thing about the over-60s bus pass....

There is truly nothing like the staggering hypocrisy of Baby Boomers. We can't afford free bus passes for the young and poor, it'll cost too much, Corbyn is a bloody Communist and controlling buses is Communism, the young want everything on a plate and for free. But woe betide anyone who tries to take the Baby Boomers' bus passes off them...

 

[Dai Corner]

There is truly nothing like the staggering hypocrisy of Baby Boomers. We can't afford free bus passes for the young and poor, it'll cost too much, Corbyn is a bloody Communist and controlling buses is Communism, the young want everything on a plate and for free. But woe betide anyone who tries to take the Baby Boomers' bus passes off them...

Speaking as a baby-boomer (? - born 1960), I will feel a little guilty at receiving a free 'perk' which if I use it every day will cost my Council more than I pay them in tax. I can well afford to run a car or pay three or four quid for a day ticket if I want to go into town.

Who said anything about free bus passes for the poor? The current and proposed entitlements are based entirely on age or disability.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

State control. Two words that guarantee shoddy goods and service.

One thing I should add about the possibility of state control of the buses, this is what I can see in theory happening.

Lets say Labour won the 2022 GE and rolled out this unworkable project. After around a year after the scheme is introduced various operators start to throw in the towel and regretfully hand over control to the council to run the services instead.

To keep costs down all early morning, evening and Sunday services are scrapped to save money and with no evening or Sunday services to worry about the very same people who voted for this would feel hard done by as they can't go out to enjoy themselves on Friday or Saturday nights because there's no buses to take them to town. This would then lead to university students lobbying their local council for late night buses, but as no money will be entering the farebox to pay for them (as the U25's will be wielding their U25 freebie pass) the council would simply not run them as it wouldn't be economical to do so.

The tourism trade, especially in rural areas, would be hurt badly as not everyone drives and to get there the only option is by bus.

 

[158756]

I have a question related to franchising. How much profit do the bus companies make in London? Is it much less than they make in deregulated areas? Presumably if the idea is that franchising will improve services, either the operators must take less or the council must spend more money.

 

[matt_world2004]

I have a question related to franchising. How much profit do the bus companies make in London? Is it much less than they make in deregulated areas? Presumably if the idea is that franchising will improve services, either the operators must take less or the council must spend more money.

Ive seen the margin of 9% in london compared to 15% outside

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Competition is already largely absent with the vast majority of routes served by just one company with most towns being overwhelmingly dominated by one operator.

I'll use Harrogate as an example what with with Connextions and Transdev battling with each other. If this was done in other areas, then the incumbant operator would be bricking it as parts of their business are under attack from a rival which in turn leads to them either abandoning all hope or pulling their finger out and try to compete.

It doesn't help that West Yorkshire is dominated by First who are the only operator on certain routes but if Stagecoach enroached back into Kirklees from Barnsley and rivaled First on the Holme Valley corridor it would give First a run for their money especially if Stagecoach offered a lower fare than First. The same could be said if Rosso decided to run a service between Rawtenstall and Halifax.

 

[radamfi]

I'll use Harrogate as an example what with with Connextions and Transdev battling with each other. If this was done in other areas, then the incumbant operator would be bricking it as parts of their business are under attack from a rival which in turn leads to them either abandoning all hope or pulling their finger out and try to compete.

But how do you force a new company to compete against an incumbent? The barrier to entry is too high. In most areas, there is no market for two or more companies. In any case, don't you remember what happened in the first 10 or so years of bus deregulation in most northern cities? On road competition was mostly detrimental in the long run and is largely seen as one of the factors in the dramatic drop in patronage during that period. Even many die hard deregulationists wouldn't want to go back to those times of high competition. They prefer the big group monopolies that we have now.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

But how do you force a new company to compete against an incumbent?

From a passenger perspective, you fabricate some story that the current operator is performing badly and their fares are too high so you ask a rival to see if they'd be interested in operating a rival service which would do better as you'd "deffinately use it". In some cases they'd look at it from a business point of view to see if it could make any money.

I've looked at gaps in Yorkshire's bus network and have on various occations asked operators, both independant and national, if they would be willing to go in for xyz tender to give some competition and choice. Usually around six to eighteen months later I have seen some operators actually act upon what I suggested.

In any case, don't you remember what happened in the first 10 or so years of bus deregulation in most northern cities?

I was born in the late 1980's so I can't recall anything before mid 1989.

All I do remember was from around 1995/96 some routes around Bradford and Huddersfield were rationalised along certain corridors and then in the late 90's First introduced their Overground network, which at the time was a step up from where Bradford Traveller and Huddersfield Kingfisher left off.

 

[Cesarcollie]

I've seen this comment (and similar) several times in this thread. Would anyone who believes this care to show evidence that this has happened in London, Edinburgh, Cardiff or Nottingham?

We're confusing two types of operation here. Edinburgh, Cardiff, Nottingham are companies operating in a deregulated market. They are stand-alone and are generally regarded as high quality operators. They happen to be municipally-owned.However there are also high quality 'private' operators, and some pretty dismal municipals....

What has to be remembered is that if 'franchising' is introduced in (say) Nottingham, it would be the local authority planning routes, setting fares, and (probably) taking revenue risk. NCT as an operator would have to tender for the work alongside any other operator who may choose to bid. So franchising could equally well see the end of some municipals as it might private independents.

 

[londonbridge]

I've posted my thoughts on this before but I've never understood why schoolkids should be considered worthy of having free bus travel. We always had to pay when I was at school. When free bus travel for London kids was first introduced I wrote to TFL objecting to it with the folowing points:

:It would do nothing to help kids learn the value of money and to pay their way in society.

:It would contribute towards childhood obesity as kids would not be encouraged to walk and/or get any exercise when they could hop on a bus for two stops. This proved to be true in one of my previous jobs when I would regularly see at least twenty kids pile on to the bus, go two stops round the corner and then pile off again. They could have walked it in the time they spent waiting for the bus to arrive and getting on.

The reply I got said that the object was to get kids into the habit of using public transport and to reduce pollution by reducing the number of cars on the school run. That's fair enough but there is no school run in the evenings and at weekends, in my book free travel should have been limited to weekdays from say 7.00 or 7.30am to 5.00pm (or, at a stretch, 6.00pm). Why should kids be allowed to travel free at weekends to the shops/cinema etc? As to encouraging them to use public transport, if that's the case then why, less than a year after the scheme was introduced, was there a massive advertising campaign encouraging kids to walk to school??

 

[Tetchytyke]

Why should kids be allowed to travel free at weekends to the shops/cinema etc?

Same reason why the old folks get to travel for free to the bingo and the working men's club.

 

[WelshBluebird]

It would do nothing to help kids learn the value of money and to pay their way in society.

What, the value of their parents money?
Lets be honest, free bus travel for kids is usually a benefit to the parents, not to the child!

Same reason why the old folks get to travel for free to the bingo and the working men's club.

Or even more apt, why should my dad, who is still of working age and earning a decent wage, now be able to get a free bus to and from work every day, saving himself over £400 a year on train fare? Where as people who do the same commute, but may earn less, have to pay the bus / train fare?

 

[Dentonian]

I've posted my thoughts on this before but I've never understood why schoolkids should be considered worthy of having free bus travel. We always had to pay when I was at school. When free bus travel for London kids was first introduced I wrote to TFL objecting to it with the folowing points:

:It would do nothing to help kids learn the value of money and to pay their way in society.

:It would contribute towards childhood obesity as kids would not be encouraged to walk and/or get any exercise when they could hop on a bus for two stops. This proved to be true in one of my previous jobs when I would regularly see at least twenty kids pile on to the bus, go two stops round the corner and then pile off again. They could have walked it in the time they spent waiting for the bus to arrive and getting on.

The reply I got said that the object was to get kids into the habit of using public transport and to reduce pollution by reducing the number of cars on the school run. That's fair enough but there is no school run in the evenings and at weekends, in my book free travel should have been limited to weekdays from say 7.00 or 7.30am to 5.00pm (or, at a stretch, 6.00pm). Why should kids be allowed to travel free at weekends to the shops/cinema etc? As to encouraging them to use public transport, if that's the case then why, less than a year after the scheme was introduced, was there a massive advertising campaign encouraging kids to walk to school??

This seems another case of assuming London circumstances extend outside the M25! Schoolkids generally have reduced fares (half price in GM), rather than free travel. Free travel only applies for journeys above three miles - albeit I suspect that is increasingly common. Here in GM, (decent) schools are closing and kids are being sent further afield. Very few secondary school kids live "two stops" from school. It looks like school hours are considerably different, at least afternoon finishing time. "Oop here" kids are finishing as early as 2.15pm so very few need to be travelling into the traditional evening peak of 4pm. These crazy hours have other consequences such as either big Childcare bills and/or increased ASB, but that's outside the remit of this discussion.

 

[Typhoon]

This seems another case of assuming London circumstances extend outside the M25! Schoolkids generally have reduced fares (half price in GM), rather than free travel. Free travel only applies for journeys above three miles - albeit I suspect that is increasingly common. Here in GM, (decent) schools are closing and kids are being sent further afield. Very few secondary school kids live "two stops" from school. It looks like school hours are considerably different, at least afternoon finishing time. "Oop here" kids are finishing as early as 2.15pm so very few need to be travelling into the traditional evening peak of 4pm. These crazy hours have other consequences such as either big Childcare bills and/or increased ASB, but that's outside the remit of this discussion.

Kent - if they don't qualify under the three mile rule* 11 to 18s get free travel provided they have purchased a Young Person's Travel Pass (£280 pa/ £100 on free school meals).
County is largely rural or small towns, and has selection so bus travel a way of life for lots (but does have parts - even rural parts - inside the M25). Certainly there are many pupils who are travelling well over half an hour to school - and not necessarily through choice. I think other counties have similar pay schemes, as well.

So it is not just here where schools have odd finishing times, some have different times on different days (mad - and difficult to schedule!)

* - no allowance is made for type of secondary/ primary school, it is the nearest they measure!

 

[PeterC]

Or even more apt, why should my dad, who is still of working age and earning a decent wage, now be able to get a free bus to and from work every day, saving himself over £400 a year on train fare? Where as people who do the same commute, but may earn less, have to pay the bus / train fare?

Not under ENCTS rules unless he does a late start. Also higher age qualifictations for ENCTS are being phased in so that "working age" males will soon cease to qualify.

 

[Typhoon]

Not under ENCTS rules unless he does a late start. Also higher age qualifictations for ENCTS are being phased in so that "working age" males will soon cease to qualify.

Current minimum age for free bus pass in Wales is 60 (I am assuming 'WelshBluebird' is a clue). Concessionary travel is devolved (also some local authorities did - and may still do - offer free bus travel from 09:00).

 

[Dai Corner]

Current minimum age for free bus pass in Wales is 60 (I am assuming 'WelshBluebird' is a clue). Concessionary travel is devolved (also some local authorities did - and may still do - offer free bus travel from 09:00).

I don't think there are any time restrictions in Wales.

 

[Typhoon]

I don't think there are any time restrictions in Wales.

Sorry, my last point was not clear. I meant that some authorities, country wide but particularly in England, offer(ed) free travel from 9:00, because they were permitted to.

I do know that those eligible can use trains in Wales as well (https://www.arrivatrainswales.co.uk/ConcessionaryTravel/).

 

[Dai Corner]

Sorry, my last point was not clear. I meant that some authorities, country wide but particularly in England, offer(ed) free travel from 9:00, because they were permitted to.

I do know that those eligible can use trains in Wales as well (https://www.arrivatrainswales.co.uk/ConcessionaryTravel/).

Ah I see what you meant now.

I wasn't aware of the 1/3 off-peak discount on the Valleys Lines for Welsh pass holders. Shame it's only there and not everywhere in Wales. I'll probably be getting a Senior Railcard though.

 

[Typhoon]

Ah I see what you meant now.

I wasn't aware of the 1/3 off-peak discount on the Valleys Lines for Welsh pass holders. Shame it's only there and not everywhere in Wales. I'll probably be getting a Senior Railcard though.

I guess it includes the least well used lines. I haven't a clue about Wrexham to Hawarden Bridge but I would have thought that for anyone living in the area, the Conwy Valley line was worth using - I took a trip once but years ago. Some other lines appear to have been 'winter only' in the past but I can't find anything on-going.

Still, I don't think Labour is promising free rail travel.