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Lack of "complimentary" catering — any successful legal action?

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Muzer

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I'm just asking out of curiosity since I know a number of forum members were rather excited a few years back when the Consumer Rights Act was extended to cover rail travel. It was suggested at the time that this may be able to be used to receive compensation when, for instance, "complimentary" first class offerings weren't provided.

Has this actually happened in practice?
 
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hexagon789

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I'm just asking out of curiosity since I know a number of forum members were rather excited a few years back when the Consumer Rights Act was extended to cover rail travel. It was suggested at the time that this may be able to be used to receive compensation when, for instance, "complimentary" first class offerings weren't provided.

Has this actually happened in practice?

Surely because it is "complimentary", then if it isn't provided there's nothing to claim on because it wasn't specifically paid for?
 

Merle Haggard

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Travelling on TPE when there was no trolley the conductor gave out £10 vouchers. Quite a bargain as all that was lost was coffee and biscuits/slice of cake.
Never seen it offered directly on VWC/Avanti, LNER or EMT/R even when there is none at all (i.e., both at seat and café bar not provided)
 

Bletchleyite

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Surely because it is "complimentary", then if it isn't provided there's nothing to claim on because it wasn't specifically paid for?

That's what the TOCs like to think, but at least some of us feel that is rather contrary to the spirit of consumer rights given that it is an advertised part of the sale, and it is somewhat "bait and switch" to use it as a selling point then not deliver it without compensation.

Personally I'd like the law to only permit a product or service to be seen as complimentary if it is available to anyone who requests it regardless of if they have purchased another product or service or not. With regard to the not dissimilar concept of BOGOFs, I'd simply ban those as they promote waste.
 

tom73

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OP appears unaware of the meaning of "complimentary". Your seat on a train is "complimentary" as the contract with the operator is for him to get you from A to B with availability of a seat possible but not guaranteed. Unless pre-reserved of course.
 

Merle Haggard

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Surely because it is "complimentary", then if it isn't provided there's nothing to claim on because it wasn't specifically paid for?
That would sound logical but VWC paid the Inland Revenue VAT on an agreed valuation of the complimentary meals. I have an idea that, if you received that amount as a refund, it would possibly disappoint...
 

Muzer

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Yes, I put "complimentary" in quotes because it's clearly being used to advertise the service and therefore it could be argued (though I don't know if it has or not, successfully) that it's a significant reason people would spend extra.

I'm curious because on the train I'm sat on now, LNER apparently loaded exactly the number of meals as the number of seat reservations. First class was unusually highly loaded with walk-up passengers today (at least that's the story the catering staff have told us), so I'm without dessert but the poor sods in Coach M are without a main course! (They just got nibbles and dessert).

I didn't actually pay for my ticket on this train, so it's a moot point for me, but I'm curious if the other passengers on the train would legitimately have a claim or not.
 

hexagon789

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That's what the TOCs like to think, but at least some of us feel that is rather contrary to the spirit of consumer rights given that it is an advertised part of the sale, and it is somewhat "bait and switch" to use it as a selling point then not deliver it without compensation.

Personally I'd like the law to only permit a product or service to be seen as complimentary if it is available to anyone who requests it regardless of if they have purchased another product or service or not. With regard to the not dissimilar concept of BOGOFs, I'd simply ban those as they promote waste.

A gesture would be nice and would be good customer service to boot, but I can't help feeling that legally there's no obligation so long as it's technically complimentary. A test case would prove it either way.
 

hexagon789

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That would sound logical but VWC paid the Inland Revenue VAT on an agreed valuation of the complimentary meals. I have an idea that, if you received that amount as a refund, it would possibly disappoint...

In the sense that it's dirt cheap?
 

Bletchleyite

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A gesture would be nice and would be good customer service to boot, but I can't help feeling that legally there's no obligation so long as it's technically complimentary. A test case would prove it either way.

A test case would be good, but if it did come down on the side of the TOC I'd like to see that followed by beefing up consumer legislation to ban this, as it's "bait and switch" in any moral sense - advertising a service with food provided then not providing it and not compensating in accordance with its component of the value proposition (not some artificially low value used for VAT purposes). Complimentaries could still be offered but would not be able to form any part of the advertising of the product, you'd just be pleasantly surprised by their provision, just as you are by complimentary items being given out at stations for promotional reasons, say.
 

hexagon789

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A test case would be good, but if it did come down on the side of the TOC I'd like to see that followed by beefing up consumer legislation to ban this, as it's "bait and switch" in any moral sense - advertising a service with food provided then not providing it and not compensating in accordance with its component of the value proposition (not some artificially low value used for VAT purposes). Complimentaries could still be offered but would not be able to form any part of the advertising of the product, you'd just be pleasantly surprised by their provision, just as you are by complimentary items being given out at stations for promotional reasons, say.

That's what I imagine will happen that TOCs will legally be forced into making the inclusive provision of food much clearer in the sense of offering guarantees of it on writing with some form of recompense for times when it isn't provided for whatever reason
 

ForTheLoveOf

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I'm just asking out of curiosity since I know a number of forum members were rather excited a few years back when the Consumer Rights Act was extended to cover rail travel. It was suggested at the time that this may be able to be used to receive compensation when, for instance, "complimentary" first class offerings weren't provided.

Has this actually happened in practice?
I've not read of any such case. I suspect that no such case has been brought to a contested hearing, or if it has, then the TOC has agreed to pay the claimant enough to keep them quiet. With the frequency that promised First Class catering fails to materialise nowadays, the TOCs might be paying out quite a lot if it became public knowledge that there was a decided case in the favour of passengers.

That shouldn't in any way put off someone like yourself who has not been provided with the advertised catering - the Small Claims Track process for money claims is quite approachable for the layperson and doesn't attract substantial costs or potential liabilities.

As to whether or not compensation is due when catering is not provided, there is a series of tests to be undertaken to determine this.

First of all, does the contract explicitly define any compensation? The answer to that is no - neither the NRCoT nor any operator's Passenger Charter promises any compensation in that circumstance.

So, is the catering an entirely discretionary matter or is it something that is part of the contract? Again, the NRCoT doesn't make any mention of catering. However, Section 50(1) of the Consumer Rights Act 2015 implies any statement made by (or on behalf of) a trader into the contract, if it affects the consumer's purchasing decision or any post-purchase decision.

This has extremely wide-ranging implications; almost all timetables of trains which have first class catering include a reference to such catering being available (whether that's in paper timetables or online). Operators with First Class catering usually have pages that detail what catering is offered and on which services.

It's not at all unreasonable to consider that a prospective First Class passenger looks at, and considers, these documents (and the statements made therein) before deciding whether to travel by rail at all, whether to travel in First or Standard Class, whether to upgrade to First Class once they already have a ticket, and so on. Any statements made in them thereby become a term of the contract, whether the TOCs like it or not - and so failure to provide the catering could be a breach of contract.

It's true that many of these statements contain provisos along the lines of "subject to availability". However, not all do (e.g. abbreviated timetables), and proviso are usually in much smaller font than the main text detailing the catering, and in an entirely separate part of the page that you might not even read at all.

Very few operators give sufficient notice that catering may not be provided as advertised and that the operators consider it a discretionary matter - e.g. saying something like "The following catering may be provided if available:"

The fact that some First Class catering is complimentary only really means you can't point to a receipt saying you've paid £X for [food item]. It doesn't mean that it's an entirely discretionary service when it has been promised in such a way as the TOCs do it.

If a breach of consumer contract happens, the CRA sets out some of the remedies available. In brief, the most appropriate would probably be a "price reduction" (a partial refund in non-legalese) of an "appropriate amount".

@Merle Haggard suggests that Virgin ascribed a very insignificant value to their First Class catering items for VAT purposes. I'm not at all surprised, since it's in their interests to minimise their VAT and First Class catering bills (whilst maximising the cost of an upgrade)! But the cost of "raw materials" doesn't really bear any relation on the damages available if something isn't provided.

If a given TOC would normally charge you £10 on the trolley for the same amount of food and drink you would get for free on a certain service, it's not at all unreasonable to expect a price reduction of £10. Alternatively, if it's difficult to ascribe a financial cost, then perhaps a percentage of any upgrade/difference to the Standard fare would be appropriate - say anywhere between 20 and 50% to account for the fact that First Class is also about space and comfort (depending on exactly how much catering was promised).

All of the above is probably irrelevant to most people in practice, unfortunately. Most people are afraid of taking companies to Court when they refuse to pay what they owe, because they perceive it as being more of a hassle than it really is, or they think it's more expensive than it is, or they think they need a solicitor when they don't actually necessarily. I suspect the majority of people who do do it, come out prepared to do it again more readily.

For the few who are prepared to escalate first or second line refusals from Customer Services to pay appropriate compensation (probably on the purported basis that "it's complimentary" or "it's subject to availability") a higher-level review of their case could see them being given some fob-off compensation. Or even better for the company, a free ticket. But the number of people who will ever take this to Court - and a contested hearing - is going to remain miniscule for as long as the current illogical attitude to customer service, and adhering to contracts, remains within the rail industry.
 

yorkie

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Surely because it is "complimentary", then if it isn't provided there's nothing to claim on because it wasn't specifically paid for?
This is incorrect. See https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/consumer-law-and-complimentary-items.171826/

OP appears unaware of the meaning of "complimentary". Your seat on a train is "complimentary" as the contract with the operator is for him to get you from A to B with availability of a seat possible but not guaranteed. Unless pre-reserved of course.
The OP is not confused, but you do appear to be.
...I'm curious if the other passengers on the train would legitimately have a claim or not.
If it was me, I'd go to the shop/foodbar/buffet and ask if equivalent items were available. I'd ask if I had to pay for them; if I was told that I did, I would obtain a receipt and I would submit the receipt for a refund.

If equivalent items are not available, then compensation may still be due, though calculating the amount may be problematical and it may be difficult for both sides to come to an amicable agreement.
That's what I imagine will happen that TOCs will legally be forced into making the inclusive provision of food much clearer in the sense of offering guarantees of it on writing with some form of recompense for times when it isn't provided for whatever reason
I don't thing anything really needs to change; the situation is already clear enough.

The tricky part is putting an exact value on specific items, which is probably best dealt with on a case-by-case basis (otherwise you risk overpaying in some cases and underpaying in others).

The only train company that I know of that has done this so far is Caledonian Sleeper, though forum members report that hasn't been exactly successful (@Starmill may want to comment at this point?)
I'm just asking out of curiosity since I know a number of forum members were rather excited a few years back when the Consumer Rights Act was extended to cover rail travel. It was suggested at the time that this may be able to be used to receive compensation when, for instance, "complimentary" first class offerings weren't provided.

Has this actually happened in practice?
Off the top of my head, I cannot recall any instances of a train company refusing to pay compensation, and therefore I am not aware of any cases where passengers had to resort to legal action.

In all cases I can recall, compensation has been paid out.
 
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Failed Unit

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I must admit I am with Yorkie. I used Seatfrog to upgrade this evening and bid on the price I would pay for the food. There was no food as it had all being eaten going Northbound. Had I known this I would not have bid. Once I found it out. (About 5 mins after leaving Lincoln) I couldn’t cancel said bid and go back k to Standard.

some you win some you lose.

but it was frustrating that I couldn’t walk away from the bid, once I knew the main criteria of the bid wasn’t available. If this was a standard auction- I could, or take action against the seller.
 

Merle Haggard

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This is incorrect. See https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/consumer-law-and-complimentary-items.171826/


If it was me, I'd go to the shop/foodbar/buffet and ask if equivalent items were available. I'd ask if I had to pay for them; if I was told that I did, I would obtain a receipt and I would submit the receipt for a refund.

On VWC, there was sometimes no at-seat at weekends (due to 'staff shortage') but there was always the offer to collect the 'snack-box' and free drinks from the buffet, which seems to be always staffed. They did try hard - I've been on a Sunday evening train when at-seat on an up Birmingham was carried out by the TM between closing doors/RA and making announcements - he was quite busy between New St and Rugby.
Also on VWC, sometimes no hot food (power problem, presumably) but generous cold food.
I know it's Avanti now, but too soon to have any first hand experience apart from no catering staff at all on the well-used 0641 Northampton Euston the other morning. No offer of recompense even though we had to survive for 32 minutes without food...
 

freddie1729

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I have had experience making complaints about lack of catering, once with ScotRail and once with GWR. Both times, they insisted with a lot of back and forth that because it's "subject to availability" or "not a guaranteed part of the service", they don't need to compensate me.

I have then escalated to the Rail Ombudsman (and previously Transport Focus) and the TOC has then agreed to refund the difference between the Standard and First Class fares. A great result in the end and more than I was expecting! I just wish it hadn't taken months of email back and forth.
 
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GadgetMan

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I'm just asking out of curiosity since I know a number of forum members were rather excited a few years back when the Consumer Rights Act was extended to cover rail travel. It was suggested at the time that this may be able to be used to receive compensation when, for instance, "complimentary" first class offerings weren't provided.

Has this actually happened in practice?
Perhaps they should send a tea bag and some biscuits through the post as compensation :p
 

Master29

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Surely because it is "complimentary", then if it isn't provided there's nothing to claim on because it wasn't specifically paid for?
I see your point as the definition of complimentary is key but surely if it's stated on their website it must be deemed as advertised and as Bletchleyite points out, therefore is contrary to the spirit of the consumer act.
 

glenbogle

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I complained to Virgin after a first class trip from Chester to Holyhead didn’t have any first class offerings due to staff shortages.
Like it’s been said in a previous post it was not a guaranteed part of the service amongst other things but they did offer me 2 tickets at a 50% discount on the WCML network so I was more than happy with the outcome.
 

boxy321

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Chiltern reduce the cost of their 'Business Zone' if the small wooden crates of apple juice and pet food bars are not available, from £27 to £10 if I recall.

If Avanti run out of The Times papers in the morning, tough (not a complaint, sometimes there are dozens left!). However, I am thinking of taking a flask aboard in the morning given recent tea and coffee service.

Those that pick up a menu on boarding and taking a seat are clearly new to the 1st class experience! Most regular passengers understand that things go wrong, but a one-off tourist paying the upgrade and then getting FA would be peeved of course.
 

WesternLancer

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some interesting points on here - it's annoying because if you think you are going to get a meal and then it's not offered, if you are on a long journey and hungry what are you supposed to do? Always take your own sandwich before you board 'just in case'?

Heading south on LNER on sunday evening I asked if any sandwiches available when I got on in 1st, but the host said they had run out and new stock not been loaded as per her request at York (train started in Edinboro, I got on south of York), but she would check.

She came back with a sandwich which was from the priced range (presumably the for sale offer for Standard Class) to give me. I noted it was use by that same day, so she probably reckoned it might not get sold and thus thrown away later that evening, so gave it to me. Common sense customer service at work!
 

yorkie

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some interesting points on here - it's annoying because if you think you are going to get a meal and then it's not offered, if you are on a long journey and hungry what are you supposed to do? Always take your own sandwich before you board 'just in case'?

Heading south on LNER on sunday evening I asked if any sandwiches available when I got on in 1st, but the host said they had run out and new stock not been loaded as per her request at York (train started in Edinboro, I got on south of York), but she would check.

She came back with a sandwich which was from the priced range (presumably the for sale offer for Standard Class) to give me. I noted it was use by that same day, so she probably reckoned it might not get sold and thus thrown away later that evening, so gave it to me. Common sense customer service at work!
Agreed. As mentioned above, if there is anything that is chargeable that they do charge for, the best advice I can give is to pay it and obtain a refund, as then it's a material amount which is easy to deal with.

But of course if you are expecting a meal, a replacement will never be quite as good; in this case I'd hope the company also add some compensation on top. As others have said, I'd be happy if this was in the form of a discount or complimentary travel ticket, which would be worth more to me than the value in cash, as well as costing the company less.
 

Haywain

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in this case I'd hope the company also add some compensation on top.
Why? Meals are not provided at weekends. A sandwich is about as much as can be expected on a Sunday evening.
 

yorkie

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The mention of a meal was in a separate paragraph so I assumed it was a separate point. I agree there would be no meal meal at weekends.
 

hexagon789

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I see your point as the definition of complimentary is key but surely if it's stated on their website it must be deemed as advertised and as Bletchleyite points out, therefore is contrary to the spirit of the consumer act.

What if they make it clear - "when available"?
 

Bletchleyite

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What if they make it clear - "when available"?

I think if it was very clear they could just about get away with it[1], but it's still morally questionable to include it in any way in the advertising if non-provision does not result in a partial refund to reflect the "bait and switch" that has occurred, even if not intentional.

[1] Something like "A food and drinks service is provided on some trains subject to availability; this service may differ from day to day so please ask your traincrew what is available on the train you are on". That won't, however, sell First Class tickets, it's more likely to increase the takings at M&S Food and Upper Crust.
 
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