Lack of consideration to passengers with tight connections

[MikeWh]

Am I the only person remembering threads where a one or two minute change in the schedule for one train breaks a connection into another forcing a lengthy wait. If every 5-minute minimum connection was turned into a 10-minute one then I think the railway would lose custom faster than a bucket with a hole in it loses water.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Agreed. Changing connections times would achieve absolutely nothing and would most likely be counterproductive. The timetables wouldn’t be amended so it would just mean people would have a much longer wait at interchange stations. They wouldn’t know there was an earlier train until they reached the interchange and if they then noticed a train going to their destination upon arrival it would just involve a mad dash to try and catch it, followed by frustration if they missed it, and of course no Delay Repay which you get now if you miss a connection.

Ill thought out nonsense.

 

[WelshBluebird]

I think there should be a common sense approach though. Especially when you are talking about either last trains or services that are disrupted due to planned engineering works (my usual beef with GWR is that quite often they don't give enough time for the replacement bus part a disrupted journey, leaving an almost impossible connection which IMO should be held).

 

[ValleyLines142]

I was heading to Exeter a few weeks ago. A Cardiff to Paddington service was 25 minutes late. I tweeted CrossCountry to ask if they could hold the Plymouth train at Bristol Parkway and they said they couldn't. Anyway my train arrived in Bristol Parkway with two minutes to spare, but as it was an 800 there was a problem releasing the doors. Eventually they opened and after legging it across the footbridge, the Voyager for Plymouth disappeared into the distance. To say I was annoyed was an understatement!

 

[221129]

I was heading to Exeter a few weeks ago. A Cardiff to Paddington service was 25 minutes late. I tweeted CrossCountry to ask if they could hold the Plymouth train at Bristol Parkway and they said they couldn't. Anyway my train arrived in Bristol Parkway with two minutes to spare, but as it was an 800 there was a problem releasing the doors. Eventually they opened and after legging it across the footbridge, the Voyager for Plymouth disappeared into the distance. To say I was annoyed was an understatement!

I'm not sure why you were annoyed? Especially as you were told that they wouldn't hold it for you. XC are extremely unlikely to agree to a hold in the Bristol area regardless.

 

[ValleyLines142]

I'm not sure why you were annoyed? Especially as you were told that they wouldn't hold it for you. XC are extremely unlikely to agree to a hold in the Bristol area regardless.

Because if the doors were released in time I probably would have made it.

I bet if I was on an XC service connecting to an onward XC service it would have been a different story!

 

[221129]

Because if the doors were released in time I probably would have made it.

I bet if I was on an XC service connecting to an onward XC service it would have been a different story!

The train still would not have been held...

 

[yorkie]

The rail industry does not expect you to run; if it's a valid connection and your inbound train is delayed, you are entitled to catch the next train and entitled to delay compensation where applicable in accordance with the delayed operators delay compensation policy/scheme.

If you don't think the minimum interchange times are enough, there are websites that let you specify additional interchange time at any intermediate stations of your choice. No-one needs to enforce this on anyone who does not want that.

The status quo is far better than forcing everyone to have extended journey times.

 

[Adsy125]

The thing is when people say 5 minute connections aren't achievable it's just not true. I have made a 2 minute connection at Southampton Central (not cross platform) comfortably before. It also disadvantages the majority of people who, the majority of times can make the 5 minute connections. As mentioned above the effect on timetabling the whole of the network would be significant and most people would probably end up losing out when previously valid connections become invalid for delay repay, last journeys etc.

 

[ComUtoR]

So lets test that. You are in the middle Blackfriars platform 1 and need to get a 4-car train leaving in 3-5 minutes on platform 3. Do you think you could make that?

Yep. Totally possible.

 

[takno]

The connection times at New Street used to drive me nuts. I appreciate I'm reasonably fit and don't carry luggage, but I don't think there's a connection there I can't make in 3 minutes, and I'm generally on an open ticket so booked services aren't that important. Given that the actual connections I needed to make were invariably 7 or 8 minutes, and the worst case was that I would be delayed by an hour I really wanted to know about the not-particularly-tight connections, but I was permanently stuck working through the timetables and figuring them out manually because the journey planner is set up for a slow-moving unfamiliar user with luggage.

As far as platform alterations go, you would never want to do them at a busy station like York to avoid a few passengers having to use the bridge - there's way too much chance of the whole situation spiralling out of control and hundreds of passengers ending up late. Network Rail deviate from the plan less and less now, which can be a little frustrating sometimes, but overall every time they do deviate it just seems to make everything worse.

 

[yorkie]

The connection times at New Street used to drive me nuts. I appreciate I'm reasonably fit and don't carry luggage, but I don't think there's a connection there I can't make in 3 minutes, and I'm generally on an open ticket so booked services aren't that important. Given that the actual connections I needed to make were invariably 7 or 8 minutes, and the worst case was that I would be delayed by an hour I really wanted to know about the not-particularly-tight connections, but I was permanently stuck working through the timetables and figuring them out manually because the journey planner is set up for a slow-moving unfamiliar user with luggage.

There is a way to do this automatically. Use www.fastjp.com and specify change at: BHM (or wherever), choose additional interchange time as a negative figure (which is then taken away from the minimum interchange time). It will generate invalid itineraries with reduced interchange times (these are labelled as such).

e.g. changing at BHM with a figure of -6 would give you connections of 6 minutes (12-6) or greater.

....you would never want to do them at a busy station like York to avoid a few passengers having to use the bridge ....

A few members of this forum know of a planner who tried his best to ensure passengers had the smoothest possible connections at York. Unfortunately his job went to Milton Keynes (and not many people are going to want to move there from York). Anyway he is very keen to tell us of occasions when his good work has since been undone by newer, less experienced planners; from my understanding there are quite a few of these.

 

[adrock1976]

New Street's 12 minutes, so not far off, York's 8 and Chester and Newton Abbot are both 5.

I remember Birmingham New Street originally had a minimum connection time of 15 minutes a long time ago.
Somewhere in recent years for some unknown reason, it was reduced to the present day 12 minutes.
As the concourse of Birmingham NS has recently been rebuilt and can sometimes be tricky to change platforms if arriving and departing from the London/Derby end (the "A" platforms), I feel that it should be put back to the original 15 minutes minimum connection time.

 

[takno]

There is a way to do this automatically. Use www.fastjp.com and specify change at: BHM (or wherever), choose additional interchange time as a negative figure (which is then taken away from the minimum interchange time). It will generate invalid itineraries with reduced interchange times (these are labelled as such).

e.g. changing at BHM with a figure of -6 would give you connections of 6 minutes (12-6) or greater.

A few members of this forum know of a planner who tried his best to ensure passengers had the smoothest possible connections at York. Unfortunately his job went to Milton Keynes (and not many people are going to want to move there from York). Anyway he is very keen to tell us of occasions when his good work has since been undone by newer, less experienced planners; from my understanding there are quite a few of these.

Thanks for the link. To be honest I've been around since the only journey planning option was flipping through the national timetable, so flipping between a couple of pages on traksy isn't too bad and has the advantage of having the live running there to look at as well.

I'm never sure in general whether the advance planning is getting worse or the East Coast is just too busy these days, but everything seems so tight now, so any unnecessary deviations are safest avoided.

 

[johntea]

East Coast were quite cruel at Edinburgh a few years ago, quite an important connection when 200 miles is involved!

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/glasgow-to-york-leeds-delayed-help.118403/

Having said that some bonus time to consume a few more pints in the station, a free taxi ride from Newcastle to Leeds and a full 100 quid rail ticket refund soon made up for things!

On the flip side I was actually thinking yesterday how journey planners don't really pay attention when it comes to platform information. For example yesterday I was travelling Castleford to Huddersfield, 15:43 comfortably into Leeds for 16:05ish at Platform 17 then a very short stroll to Platform 16 for the 16:11 to Liverpool, but the journey planner suggested I wait until the 16:36 Piccadilly service at Leeds as it presumably just assumes the 10 minute connection time.

 

[ValleyLines142]

The train still would not have been held...

Debatable....

 

[AlterEgo]

My complaint was primarily about inconsiderate platforming

But the problem stems from the fact you were late. This is the core issue.

 

[AlterEgo]

The real problem is that the published minmum connection times are absurdly short and are basically invented to make journeys seem faster than they really are.

Even when everything's running "on time" a "5 minute" connection is realistically more like 3 minutes (train doors don't open immediately as the train stops and often close up to a minute before published departure times, delays of less than ~2 minutes are usually still counted as "on time"). Basically impossible unless it's a cross-platform (or same platform) interchange for anyone except a fully able passenger with no luggage who's familiar with the station and willing to run.

Ideally, minimum connection times at any staiton with more than a single (island) platform would be at least 10 minutes and timetables would be designed accordingly to ensure good connections. In reality, different TOCs rarely collaborate on timetables and being able to quote fast journey times in marketing matters far more than actually making things convinient for passengers.

There is almost no marketing whatsoever relating to connecting services. Almost all marketing I see is to do with direct, headline services, like Euston to Manchester in 2 hours 7 minutes.

The majority of complaints on this forum are that the connections are too long.

 

[tiptoptaff]

Debatable....

Not really. XC very rarely hold, if at all. I have never known our hold requests to be upheld. The most they've done is SSOs during major disruption. But even that's rare

 

[robbeech]

but the journey planner suggested I wait until the 16:36 Piccadilly service at Leeds as it presumably just assumes the 10 minute connection time.

Journey planners are programmed to take the minimum connection time into account. If it were to give you an itinerary with the 1611 and your first train was late you would not have been entitled to delay repay, nor would you be entitled to catch the next service if you had a ticket for your booked train only.

 

[otomous]

Everyone appears to be ignoring the fact the railway in the UK is not a single entity anymore. It doesn’t matter what Switzerland or Germany do, they have a different approach to transport provision. In the UK rail is a relatively poor relation in the eyes of the powers that be, and this is surely reflected in our deliberate folly of trying to set up completion within the system. When East Coast and Cross Country and Network Rail all have their own agenda and no interest or prizes for co-operating, why would they attempt to hold connections or platform in a connection friendly manner?

 

[DanTrain]

Once I came into Sheffield on a Liverpool to Norwich train (which reverses to go back out the South end of the station). We were hoping to connect with the Man Picc train (not a logical connection so no reason why it should have been very do-able). As we pulled in, we could see the Pacer in 2C as always, and thought it might be just about possible. However, for some truly bizzare reason our train trundled at 15mph all the way to the far North of platform 1, even the the southern half of the platform was completely clear. To have got on the pacer would have required a long dash down platform 1, a trip over the bridge and the an even loner dash down platform 2 (2C seemingly being miles from anywhere else). Whilst I appreciate only a few people would ever need this connection (it doubles back on the same line), the fact that the train which came into and left from the South had to travel all the way to the Northern end, delaying everyone, seems a bit odd?

 

[AlterEgo]

My complaint was primarily about inconsiderate platforming

It’s about platforming inconsiderate to what you consider to be your needs. In the York example, which platform should they use? Was every single passenger connecting to Liverpool, for example?

 

[otomous]

Once I came into Sheffield on a Liverpool to Norwich train (which reverses to go back out the South end of the station). We were hoping to connect with the Man Picc train (not a logical connection so no reason why it should have been very do-able). As we pulled in, we could see the Pacer in 2C as always, and thought it might be just about possible. However, for some truly bizzare reason our train trundled at 15mph all the way to the far North of platform 1, even the the southern half of the platform was completely clear. To have got on the pacer would have required a long dash down platform 1, a trip over the bridge and the an even loner dash down platform 2 (2C seemingly being miles from anywhere else). Whilst I appreciate only a few people would ever need this connection (it doubles back on the same line), the fact that the train which came into and left from the South had to travel all the way to the Northern end, delaying everyone, seems a bit odd?

Various possibilities.

No stop car marks for trains reversing and these days drivers can’t use their own judgement or experience without being accused of a stop short.

Local instructions that all trains must go to the stops. On my network I would certainly go to the stops if it was a dead end platform regardless.

The need to avoid the unit being over the TPWS grids when the cab at the other end is keyed on.

 

[All Line Rover]

The real problem is that the published minmum connection times are absurdly short and are basically invented to make journeys seem faster than they really are.

Ideally, minimum connection times at any staiton with more than a single (island) platform would be at least 10 minutes...

Nonsense. For the regular traveller, 5 minutes is achieveable at almost any moderately sized station, 7 at large and complex stations such as Manchester Piccadilly, Leeds, Euston, Birmingham New Street*, etc (*providing the old concourse is used rather than exiting and re-entering the ticket barriers).

With an hourly service (or worse) still common on many lines, what reaction would you expect to receive from commuters told to wait 1h 9m instead of 9m when changing trains?

As others have said on this thread, passengers requiring longer connection times because of infirmity or heavy luggage can request them. The fact that, in general, only ticket offices and certain websites can accommodate these requests at present is not a justification for lengthening minimum connection times for all passengers, which would make rail travel less attractive and competitive against car travel.

 

[All Line Rover]

The rail industry does not expect you to run; if it's a valid connection and your inbound train is delayed, you are entitled to catch the next train and entitled to delay compensation where applicable in accordance with the delayed operators delay compensation policy/scheme...

Passengers aren't 'officially' expected to run. In practice the opposite can be true. On multiple occasions I've witnessed platform staff and/or announcers at Virgin-operated Crewe 'encourage' passengers travelling from London to Chester to make a 3-4 minute connection at Crewe (where the minimum connection time is 10 minutes) between a late-running Virgin London to Manchester 11-car Pendolino arriving on platform 1 and an on-time Arriva Crewe to Chester train departing platform 9. The distance between the rear of platform 1 and platform 9 is the greatest distance that can traversed by any connection at Crewe station (platforms 11 and 12 are further west from platform 1 than platform 9, but being through platforms trains calling on them are not situated as far north - platform 9 is an obscure bay platform at the northern extremity of Crewe station). This happens with such frequency that I can't believe no pressure is being applied by certain managers. Nonetheless, Virgin will still - and must - honour Delay Repay if a passenger refuses to run and, as a result, is delayed.

 

[Dren Ahmeti]

Two tight connections I've made:
Reading Platform 9 to 1, new station layout, so up the escalators, full sprint across the concourse, run down the escalator, and down platform 7, in 2-3 minutes, wouldn't have made it if I hadn't known which coach stops right by the escalators!
Wembley Central Platform 1 to 5, 1-2 minutes, now that was fun, thank you Southern for actually being early for once and giving me a fright whilst sat on the Bakerloo making my way up!

 

[Bald Rick]

So lets test that. You are in the middle Blackfriars platform 1 and need to get a 4-car train leaving in 3-5 minutes on platform 3. Do you think you could make that?

5 mins easy. 3 mins doable. Particularly if make sure that you are at the back of the train arriving on Platform 1. Which if you only have a 3 minute connection, would be a priority.

 

[Old Yard Dog]

DB is hardly a less complicated system and it manages to plan more sensibly.

Before I retired, I remember at Karlsruhe I regularly had just 6 mins to get from an ICE train from Frankfurt Airport to a bay platform at the very edge of the station (102) for the hourly Landau train, some 100-200 yards away. The DB planner suggests connection times have improved since but the platforming hasn't (and probably can't).

 

[Old Yard Dog]

It’s about platforming inconsiderate to what you consider to be your needs. In the York example, which platform should they use? Was every single passenger connecting to Liverpool, for example?

No - but many were going to Leeds and Manchester. And while there were later trains to these destinations, they would have been worried about their Advance tickets being refused - or having to prove without reasonable doubt to a overzealous conductor that their connecting train was late. And they would also have been worried about losing their reserved sears on a day when TPE services were more overcrowded than usual due to engineering work cancellations.

And I'm sorry you consider me selfish for wanting to make a connection listed on the NR journey planner without having to run. I am an overweight 66 year old not Usain Bolt.