Lack of fast trains from Crewe-Milton Keynes in the morning peak

[MalaiseForever]

At £708 / month I don't think it would ever be considered. I also don't think it would ever be considered at the restrictive ticket rate of £495 / month.

abcde

 

[Bletchleyite]

Unfortunately, some people (however few they are in number) don’t have much of a choice. Either the very poor train service offered in the morning or drive. Neither of these work for me, so looks like I will have to turn down the role, or ask Network Rail to kindly base me in Manchester instead.

Have you considered relocating temporarily to MK? I thought Network Rail had a "green office policy" or somesuch that mandated those working there to live within a certain distance?

You might find you can rent a room over the summer for quite a bit less than the cost of that outrageously expensive monthly season ticket.

Failing that, get a cheaper LNR/WMT season, get up earlier and get this one:
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/P45217/2019/06/10/advanced
...just about a perfect arrival time if an early start?

 

[MalaiseForever]

Have you considered relocating temporarily to MK? I thought Network Rail had a "green office policy" or somesuch that mandated those working there to live within a certain distance?

You might find you can rent a room over the summer for quite a bit less than the cost of that outrageously expensive monthly season ticket.

Failing that, get a cheaper LNR/WMT season, get up earlier and get this one:
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/P45217/2019/06/10/advanced
...just about a perfect arrival time if an early start?

I will be speaking to them more about tomorrow. You’re right, perhaps I could relocate temporarily but this is not something I want to do (I have never heard of Network Rail’s green office policy). I was expecting to be able to get the hour long VT service there and back each day (hence my surprise upon checking the timetable today), which would be a reasonable and acceptable commute. Getting up at 5am, for a near 3 hour train journey to get into the office for 9 is just ridiculous in my eyes, especially when we know it can be done in an hour!

I think my best bet is to ask that I do the role in Manchester as opposed to MK, which would be a very easy commute.

The cost of the season ticket is not a concern as it will be subsidised to the tune of 75%, its the timetable that’s the issue!

 

[Ianno87]

I would say that this illustrates perfectly the apparent determination to wipe Crewe off the railway map - and especially to disadvantage the railway employees who still insist on living there (here.)
Why should someone living in Crewe be expected to drive to Stoke to commute to MK? Hasn't Stoke got its own congestion and pollution problems?
It's even more surprising that a couple of potential commuting trains don't call there (MK), even though the rest of them do!
Real dog-in-a-manger timetabling, and bears out what a Post Office senior manager friend said to me about 20 years ago, they were determined to eliminate employment in Crewe (and Liverpool too) because the staff were seen as "bolshie!"

Wow, "dog in a manger timetabling". What a statement. You do realise you can't just stick in stops on the WCML wherever you feel like it and expect to still run the same number of trains, right?

It is galling though. You take a job in a railway town and buy a house within cycling distance of your employment location... and then 10 or 20 years later you are made redundant - but to travel to your new location involves 60 to 80 minutes extra commuting - and that's if you can find a direct train.

Ideal connection??? You live at a major railway node, you want to commute to another major centre of National Rail employment (on the very same trunk route - the WCML, no less) but there are no direct trains at commuting times? (but there are at other times of the day)
And it's not even as though the house you bought is particularly saleable either...
https://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-79739144.html Any takers? (Guide price £25k, and that's not a mistake!)

It is not "The Railway's" job to design its timetables around the needs of railway employees and historic connections. The DfT paid a heck of a lot for the West Coast Route Modernisation over a decade ago, and how it's capacity is specified to support the investment of UK plc. Just look at the passenger numbers over the last 10 years to see how successful the connectivity provided by the VHF timetable has been.

It'll be interesting to see how Crewe-MK commuting demand trends over time...I suspect as those fortunate enough to get free travel gradually retire it might tail off or flatline. If you're a millennial or Generation Z getting a job in MK, and paying the full cost of a season ticket, Crewe won't seem all that attractive when compared to say the Trent Valley or West Midlands - maybe slightly higher house prices but much better work-life balance.

Anyway It's not as if Crewe isn't easily commutable to London, Birmingham, Chester, Liverpool or Manchester for jobs aplenty for the more typical Crewe resident.... Has it ever had a good MK commute option (pre-2008)?!

 

[Starmill]

Would you pay £500 a month for a one way journey that takes 2 and a half hours to get you to work? You'd quickly become exhausted.

 

[MalaiseForever]

Would you pay £500 a month for a one way journey that takes 2 and a half hours to get you to work? You'd quickly become exhausted.

Definitely not!

 

[Starmill]

Crewe won't seem all that attractive when compared to say the Trent Valley or West Midlands - maybe slightly higher house prices but much better work-life balance.

Why wouldn't younger people working in Milton Keynes town centre live in the surrounding urban areas, or nearby towns such as Northampton? If you are free to choose, why would you choose the West Midlands??

 

[Bletchleyite]

I will be speaking to them more about tomorrow. You’re right, perhaps I could relocate temporarily but this is not something I want to do (I have never heard of Network Rail’s green office policy). I was expecting to be able to get the hour long VT service there and back each day (hence my surprise upon checking the timetable today), which would be a reasonable and acceptable commute. Getting up at 5am, for a near 3 hour train journey to get into the office for 9 is just ridiculous in my eyes, especially when we know it can be done in an hour!

I think my best bet is to ask that I do the role in Manchester as opposed to MK, which would be a very easy commute.

The cost of the season ticket is not a concern as it will be subsidised to the tune of 75%, its the timetable that’s the issue!

If you got the LNR arriving at 0855 you would be at your desk by about 0910, it's just over the road from the station. Can they accommodate that instead?

 

[Class 170101]

When I've been to the Quadrant an evening out seems to start with who is drinking and who is driving and who is giving who a lift and returning them the next day to their car.

However I do feel there is a weakness with the WCML timetable with only one service (broadly) hourly between Crewe and Wigan North Western throughout the day. It effectively splits the WCML in two north to south.

 

[causton]

However I do feel there is a weakness with the WCML timetable with only one service (broadly) hourly between Crewe and Wigan North Western throughout the day. It effectively splits the WCML in two north to south.

That definitely is the weak link. That is definitely how it feels from down here in MK, there are the "south side" services that go to Manchester or Liverpool furthest, then the "north side" ones come in at Wigan and Warrington and pretty much nothing to connect the two apart from the VT Euston-Birmingham-Scotland service!

 

[AndrewE]

Wow, "dog in a manger timetabling". What a statement. You do realise you can't just stick in stops on the WCML wherever you feel like it and expect to still run the same number of trains, right?

Yes, but this example is an indictment of the current timetable (and those who specified it.)

It is not "The Railway's" job to design its timetables around the needs of railway employees and historic connections.

No, but there are a lot of non railway-people who commute from Crewe, and I guess more might commute to MK if the timetable was better. I am just aware of the extra injustice (or irony if you don't feel any sympathy) of railway staff being relocated to somewhere with an almost unusable service.

The DfT paid a heck of a lot for the West Coast Route Modernisation over a decade ago, and how it's capacity is specified to support the investment of UK plc. Just look at the passenger numbers over the last 10 years to see how successful the connectivity provided by the VHF timetable has been.

just as long as they want to commute to and from London...

It'll be interesting to see how Crewe-MK commuting demand trends over time..

Well with this timetable it's predictable that it will collapse...

.I suspect as those fortunate enough to get free travel gradually retire it might tail off or flatline. If you're a millennial or Generation Z getting a job in MK, and paying the full cost of a season ticket, Crewe won't seem all that attractive when compared to say the Trent Valley or West Midlands - maybe slightly higher house prices but much better work-life balance.

Anyway It's not as if Crewe isn't easily commutable to London, Birmingham, Chester, Liverpool or Manchester for jobs aplenty for the more typical Crewe resident.... Has it ever had a good MK commute option (pre-2008)?!

It definitely used to have a regular hourly service to Rugby although I don't know whether that worked at commuting times.

 

[The Planner]

The cost of the season ticket is not a concern as it will be subsidised to the tune of 75%, its the timetable that’s the issue!

Only to a specific limit on the season ticket, £2250 (though I think its going up), if 75% is more than that then NR won't pay more.

 

[Ianno87]

Why wouldn't younger people working in Milton Keynes town centre live in the surrounding urban areas, or nearby towns such as Northampton? If you are free to choose, why would you choose the West Midlands??

Well, exactly... plenty of choices witgout having to resort to Crewe.

 

[Ianno87]

Yes, but this example is an indictment of the current timetable (and those who specified it.)

Please outline what specification/timetable would be better then, if the people responsible were apparently so rubbish. You've clearly worked out an alternative timetable fully to make such a confident claim.

Note that it must not reduce the number of morning peak services, and must be timetableable.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, but this example is an indictment of the current timetable (and those who specified it.)No, but there are a lot of non railway-people who commute from Crewe

To MK? Really? On a daily basis? Very few, I bet, at the fare being charged.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well, exactly... plenty of choices witgout having to resort to Crewe.

I would choose to live most places before Crewe, it really is not a very nice town. I'm told neighbouring Alsager is nicer, that said.

Maybe not Luton though

 

[AndrewE]

Please outline what specification/timetable would be better then, if the people responsible were apparently so rubbish. You've clearly worked out an alternative timetable fully to make such a confident claim.

Note that it must not reduce the number of morning peak services, and must be timetableable.

I am not a timetable planner but I am a rail user. I am also conscious that the current timetable is so London-focussed that it stops people being able to run their lives conveniently unless they fall in with the London focus, which your "we are perfect and any other option is unthinkable" attitude helps to reinforce.
The timetable will also influence employers, which then jeopardises the economic prospects of places other than London.

I recognise that it's not the only factor, and also that some conurbations have made sterling efforts to improve commuting in their regions. There are still some poor performers, but at least Bristol seems to be waking up now.

 

[MalaiseForever]

If you got the LNR arriving at 0855 you would be at your desk by about 0910, it's just over the road from the station. Can they accommodate that instead?

I don’t think leaving the house at 5 every day is sustainable, nor an ideal situation for the work-life balance, educational commitments etc.

Only to a specific limit on the season ticket, £2250 (though I think its going up), if 75% is more than that then NR won't pay more.

It’s up to £2500 as far as I am aware, but seeing as this would only be for 10 weeks, the cost wouldn’t be more than that.

 

[MalaiseForever]

I would choose to live most places before Crewe, it really is not a very nice town. I'm told neighbouring Alsager is nicer, that said.

Maybe not Luton though

Crewe isn’t that bad! I’ve been here all my life, sure it has its problems but they’re no different from anywhere else. It does actually have some very nice areas and the surrounding towns and villages are also pretty good.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don’t think leaving the house at 5 every day is sustainable, nor an ideal situation for the work-life balance, educational commitments etc.

Best live somewhere more sensible for your intended destination, then, or take temporary accommodation. Commuting 125 miles each way is not a sensible lifestyle, nor one that is environmentally sustainable. Hardly anybody will be doing it.

The timings work fine for a one off business day trip - in my experience these "9am meetings" which people moan about mostly don't exist, people schedule them for 10am to allow the host to get in, read emails, have a coffee, prepare the meeting room and then be ready to receive their visitors.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It’s up to £2500 as far as I am aware, but seeing as this would only be for 10 weeks, the cost wouldn’t be more than that.

I don't know the wording, but you may want to check that that isn't based on an annual season ticket equivalent rather than being "per person per annum", i.e. would be pro-rated down for a shorter period.

 

[The Planner]

In which case you might not get any discount at all as its for an annual or 6 month season ticket only, not pro rata.

 

[MalaiseForever]

In which case you might not get any discount at all as its for an annual or 6 month season ticket only, not pro rata.

That is not what NR have told me, perhaps the forum knows better than their HR department, I wouldn’t be surprised if that were the case, considering my dealings with them.

 

[MalaiseForever]

Best live somewhere more sensible for your intended destination, then, or take temporary accommodation. Commuting 125 miles each way is not a sensible lifestyle, nor one that is environmentally sustainable. Hardly anybody will be doing it.

The timings work fine for a one off business day trip - in my experience these "9am meetings" which people moan about mostly don't exist, people schedule them for 10am to allow the host to get in, read emails, have a coffee, prepare the meeting room and then be ready to receive their visitors.

It is sustainable and if the 1 hour fast VT trains run in the morning peak, it would be an easy commute for me if that were the case. Though I appreciate it would be challenging for others, and seeking a temporary relocation were easier.

In any case, I will be asking if it is possible to do the role in Manchester, if not, I will have to decline the opportunity.

 

[Qwerty133]

It is sustainable and if the 1 hour fast VT trains run in the morning peak, it would be an easy commute for me if that were the case. Though I appreciate it would be challenging for others, and seeking a temporary relocation were easier.

In any case, I will be asking if it is possible to do the role in Manchester, if not, I will have to decline the opportunity.

To be honest the role is 10 weeks, not 10 years. If you were that interested in it you'd be willing to undertake a sub-optimal commute for that period of time so it may be better for everyone if you decline it. The railway cannot provide the optimal journey's for everyone and there is simply a much bigger market travelling to London during peak times so this has to be prioritised.

 

[MalaiseForever]

To be honest the role is 10 weeks, not 10 years. If you were that interested in it you'd be willing to undertake a sub-optimal commute for that period of time so it may be better for everyone if you decline it. The railway cannot provide the optimal journey's for everyone and there is simply a much bigger market travelling to London during peak times so this has to be prioritised.

If it was as simple as being interested in a role that meant you could just accept it there and then, that would be brilliant. People have to balance many different commitments in life, including, work, family, education and socialising.

I only made this thread because I was surprised that there isn’t a single fast train between CRE-MKC in the morning peak. I am fully aware of the conflicting demands on the operation of the railway.

 

[Deafdoggie]

I would choose to live most places before Crewe, it really is not a very nice town. I'm told neighbouring Alsager is nicer, that said.

Maybe not Luton though

Crewe isn’t that bad! I’ve been here all my life, sure it has its problems but they’re no different from anywhere else. It does actually have some very nice areas and the surrounding towns and villages are also pretty good.

Crewe has a massive amount of housing. Like all places it has good and bad areas. Alsager is OK, but not much there apart from houses, Nantwich is much nicer.

 

[tbtc]

It is galling though. You take a job in a railway town and buy a house within cycling distance of your employment location... and then 10 or 20 years later you are made redundant - but to travel to your new location involves 60 to 80 minutes extra commuting - and that's if you can find a direct train

This is a great example of the "bubble" that the railway operates in - in 2019 most people would be delighted to have a stable job in the same location for twenty years - if that's the biggest problem that we have then try working outside the railway industry.

The railway cannot provide the optimal journey's for everyone and there is simply a much bigger market travelling to London during peak times so this has to be prioritised

This is the inconvenient truth that a lot of enthusiasts don't want to acknowledge.

The fact that the timetable isn't optimal for people doing a two hundred and fifty mile daily commute between two towns (not cities) doesn't mean that the railway is failing, just that the railway is more suited to providing the bigger links directly.

Nobody has suggested any sensible alternatives to the lack of Crewe - MK services - unless they want every service on the WCML to be a stopper (and even if someone inserts a stop into a southbound service at MK, there'll be plenty of other combinations of places that don't warrant a direct service in the rush hour - be that Stafford to Watford or Stoke to Northampton or whatever, I don't know - there will always be places on the same route that don't have a great service between them)

 

[Bletchleyite]

It is sustainable and if the 1 hour fast VT trains run in the morning peak, it would be an easy commute for me if that were the case. Though I appreciate it would be challenging for others, and seeking a temporary relocation were easier.

In any case, I will be asking if it is possible to do the role in Manchester, if not, I will have to decline the opportunity.

Why don't you just ask them if you would be OK arriving at 0915 and leaving 15 minutes later? Then take the 0714 LNR service (arr 0854) and a good book or collection of iPlayer downloads.

 

[Deafdoggie]

Why don't you just ask them if you would be OK arriving at 0915 and leaving 15 minutes later? Then take the 0714 LNR service (arr 0854) and a good book or collection of iPlayer downloads.

Or better still, get a job in the timetabling department and schedule your own trains!