Lack of ticket on departure on Merseyrail

[gray1404]

What can we do to make Merseyrail introduce ticket on departure from their stations with TVMs or indeed their booking offices? A recent thread on here has highlighted just how problematic this is and I think enough is enough.

I know some people will reply on here to say it is not in Merseyrail's interests to provide such a service as they would prefer the commission from the ticket sale and TOD will only allow them to charge a per ticket fee, however this is not delivering a fair deal for the consumer and is not in line with overall standards across the rest of the National Rail Network.

I do not know of any other TOC that does not allow you to make bookings through its website and does not offer ticket collection at least some of it's stations. It is very frustrating that Merseyrail has the technology but refuses point blank to implement it.

(The notable exception here is Liverpool South Parkway, which I believe has Northern branded TVM offering collection however.)

 

[najaB]

What can we do to make Merseyrail...

There is little to nothing that can be done to force a TOC to do anything that isn't a franchise requirement.

 

[Merseysider]

Ticket machines aren't always a good thing. And they cost a lot too.

More realistic to achieve a decent outcome would be pressuring Merseyrail to upgrade 3/4 of their key stations' ticket offices to access TOD bookings, outside of rush hour.

 

[gray1404]

This discussion is not about ticket machines it is about being able to collect tickets purchased online from Merseyrail stations as TODs. Only being able to collect such tickets outside of rush hour is pointless if a customer needs to travel then too.

I believe a better solution would be that Merseyrail enables their self service ticket machines to be able to collect and print tickets purchased online and by phone. The booking office of course being able to print such tickets if the machine went out of service. Of course not all Merseyrail stations have a TVM, but a number of key stations on their network do.

 

[Camden]

It's a city metro system operating on lower fares subsidised by the national and local taxpayer. All riders should absolutely contribute to the system they're privileged to have access to. As long as it's possible to pick up longer distance advance tickets from stations where applicable services depart (ie. Lime Street, Chester, etc) I don't see what there is to complain about.

 

[causton]

It's a city metro system operating on lower fares subsidised by the national and local taxpayer. All riders should absolutely contribute to the system they're privileged to have access to. As long as it's possible to pick up longer distance advance tickets from stations where applicable services depart (ie. Lime Street, Chester, etc) I don't see what there is to complain about.

Because with the fares system we have, you can book a ticket between any two stations. So why force people to pay for a separate ticket to/from Lime Street, Chester etc and make them pay more?

 

[Camden]

Because with the fares system we have, you can book a ticket between any two stations. So why force people to pay for a separate ticket to/from Lime Street, Chester etc and make them pay more?

Because they should contribute properly to the upkeep of the system, being that it is already subsidised by the city at large for their benefit in the form of them having a rapid transit system with low fares.

 

[najaB]

So why force people to pay for a separate ticket to/from Lime Street, Chester etc and make them pay more?

They don't have to. It's possible to buy tickets to any destination from a Merseyrail station. And if it isn't possible to do so, then Condition 6.3 of the NRCoT specifically says "In these cases, you must, as soon as you are reasonably able, buy an appropriate Ticket to complete your journey. The price of the Ticket you purchase will be the same as if you had bought a Ticket at the station from which you first departed."

While it's not as clear as the old Condition 3 of the NRCoC, it is clear that the intent is that you should not be disadvantaged financially due to Merseyrail's inability to sell the ticket you require.

 

[gray1404]

Merseyrail booking offices can sell any ticket. Getting them to sell certain advance tickets can be tricky, often due to their inability to use the system. That said, it is usually possible to obtain any walk up ticket from a Merseyrail station. However, it is not possible to collect any tickets that have been purchased online or by phone from any Merseyrail station (except Liverpool Lime Street and Liverpool South Parkway where other operators offer such a facility). That is the issue at play here: the lack of TOD on Merseyrail.

 

[Camden]

And you can't collect tickets purchased online at tube stations either.

 

[gray1404]

Merseyrail is not the tube. It is part of National Rail. But you knew that already

I am sorry but that is by no means an accurate comparison. Most tube stations do not (in theory) sell the full range of National Rail tickets, Merseyrail (in theory) do sell such from their booking offices.

 

[Starmill]

Perhaps Northern could be persuaded to install a ticket machine at Southport, Kirkby and Ormskirk. There is precedent that they have their ticket machines at stations managed by VT (Stockport) and ME (Liverpool South Parkway). Liverpool Lime Street and Chester already have the functionality.

If Merseyrail cannot be persuaded to make ToD available at any other station, and just a small number would be a big help, then perhaps either Northern or maybe even a retailer could trial ToD locations in shops or public buildings across Merseyside, similar to the Amazon Lockers.

As most of the people of Merseyside currently lack access to ToD except at Liverpool Lime Street, Liverpool South Parkway, St Helens Junction and maybe one or two other stations, these might be very well used. There could be a lot of fees to collect from dispensing ToDs to the people of the Wirral, who have no easy access to ToD anywhere.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Because they should contribute properly to the upkeep of the system, being that it is already subsidised by the city at large for their benefit in the form of them having a rapid transit system with low fares.

The fares are not that low these days, and there was a sly 1/3 increase for Railcard holders (more for F&F) when they changed to those day tickets.

But there are more reasons for wanting a through ticket than just saving money. Most of Merseyrail's lines run primarily north to south, with connections to the main network at both ends, meaning it's quite common for stations in the middle of a line to have Permitted Routes both ways for a west-east journey. Splitting at Liverpool seriously limits your options.

Personally I believe it should be a condition of membership of ATOC that TOD is provided at all stations where ticketing facilities are provided, and should be a mandatory part of all franchise agreements.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And you can't collect tickets purchased online at tube stations either.

Merseyrail is a National Rail TOC (albeit one let locally), it is not LU, which is not a National Rail TOC. It's vaguely comparable to LO, I suppose.

I would accept the other option of throwing it out of the National Rail network and out of ATOC and telling it to get lost and do its own thing (no more national subsidy either) - basically put it on the same financial model as Metrolink - but that would also include denying it commission from ticket sales etc as well to be fair in my book. But as per my other post it'd reduce flexibility significantly on east-west journeys.

 

[sheff1]

And you can't collect tickets purchased online at tube stations either.

More relevantly, you cannot collect tickets purchased online at a whole raft of National Rail stations from St Ives to Georgemas Junction.

If the OP is really that bothered they could try contacting their local MP. I do not see where the "we" comes in.

 

[M28361M]

The lack of ToD is not too much of a problem for me - I work in the city centre so usually pop to Lime Street on my lunch break a few days before I travel. However I can fully appreciate how annoying it is for others, especially on the Wirral peninsula where there is nowhere to collect tickets at all.

When Merseyrail is discussed, it is often described as a "self-contained network". That may be true operationally, but it is still part of the National Rail network - lots of people use Merseyrail as part of a longer journey; indeed some routes (eg Liverpool-Ormskirk-Preston) are effectively one route artificially chopped in half.

I can only assume Merseyrail have done the sums and concluded that the cost of upgrading TVMs and their back office systems would outweigh the benefits of offering ToD. Most of their TVMs are cash only so would need a hardware as well a software upgrade.

Merseyrail only offer walk-up tickets for their own routes, and for longer distance routes I suspect they will get more revenue from a split ticket, than the tiny cut they would get from a long distance Advance "&Connections" fare. So there's little incentive to make it easier to book Advances.

As for contacting MPs, Louise Ellman of Liverpool Riverside, chairs the Commons Transport Select Committee (at least, she did, I don't know if she still holds the post after the recent election). She might have a bit of clout.

 

[Starmill]

It might be possible to persuade ATW to install a TVM at Bidston - then it would be the only place for the whole of the Wirral to collect their tickets. 1 is better than 0.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Because they should contribute properly to the upkeep of the system, being that it is already subsidised by the city at large for their benefit in the form of them having a rapid transit system with low fares.

You mean the system they contribute to with their council tax? People want to pick up tickets via TOD from Merseyrail stations are going to be locals and therefore contributing. Can you pick up tickets via TOD from London Overground?

 

[Starmill]

Can you pick up tickets via TOD from London Overground?

Yes. I think every London Overground managed station offers ToD - although I will have to check...

 

[Bletchleyite]

More relevantly, you cannot collect tickets purchased online at a whole raft of National Rail stations from St Ives to Georgemas Junction.

Those, primarily, are stations with no ticketing facilities at all.

 

[Haywain]

Perhaps Northern could be persuaded to install a ticket machine at Southport, Kirkby and Ormskirk. There is precedent that they have their ticket machines at stations managed by VT (Stockport) and ME (Liverpool South Parkway). Liverpool Lime Street and Chester already have the functionality.

It might be possible to persuade ATW to install a TVM at Bidston - then it would be the only place for the whole of the Wirral to collect their tickets. 1 is better than 0.

Who will do this persuading? And more to the point, who will pay? The cost of purchasing, installing and maintaining a TVM runs into tens of thousands of pounds even if the TOC has the relevant infrastructure in place to start with. I would be surprised if the TOCs you have mentioned have that infrastructure at the stations suggested, and there could be huge costs in providing it.
A far easier solution, for both Merseyrail and the majority of customers, might be for the TOC to accept barcoded tickets (e-tickets, m-tickets and self print) for journeys that go beyond their own domain. This would be relatively low cost in infrastructure and equipment terms. However, Merseyrail are quite firm in their approach - they do what is necessary and required of them and have little interest in what might be called optional extras.

 

[Polarbear]

In correspondence I've had with Merseyrail regarding another matter (discussed on another thread), I was given the impression that they were looking to upgrade/replace their TVM's in the medium term. In their letter to me, they readily admitted that their TVM's were not up to scratch (or words to that effect).

Again, as I've suggested elsewhere, I personally think that Merseyrail intend to acquire TVM's that would be capable of doing much more than the current ones, including a facility to charge up/credit Walrus smart cards. Again, my personal take on this is that the delays in rolling out Walrus may be causing an undesired knock on effect - such as a delay in facilitating TOD.

That said, Merseyrail do seem to have an issue with being part of the national network, and whilst it is largely a self contained system, there are very important links to main line services. As part of that national network, the same facilities for purchasing/collecting tickets should be made available to it's customers.

 

[edwin_m]

Is a through ticket from a Merseyrail station any cheaper than buying the equivalent ticket starting from Lime Street, South Parkway or Chester plus a single on Merseyrail? If so then perhaps websites shouldn't offer these tickets but instead ask passengers to buy their own ticket to the interchange station and allow time to use ToD there. This obviously wouldn't work at Southport, Ormskirk or Kirkby if Northern doesn't have TVMs there.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Who will do this persuading? And more to the point, who will pay? The cost of purchasing, installing and maintaining a TVM runs into tens of thousands of pounds even if the TOC has the relevant infrastructure in place to start with. I would be surprised if the TOCs you have mentioned have that infrastructure at the stations suggested, and there could be huge costs in providing it.

Merseyrail have TVMs in some locations. They could at least enable TOD on those.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is a through ticket from a Merseyrail station any cheaper than buying the equivalent ticket starting from Lime Street, South Parkway or Chester plus a single on Merseyrail?

Yes, and for east-west journeys you get extra flexibility on a through ticket on most lines, giving the choice of going via Liverpool or Ormskirk/Southport/Kirkby/South Parkway/Chester/Ellesmere Port depending on line. Splits really are a nuisance not to mention expensive.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Is a through ticket from a Merseyrail station any cheaper than buying the equivalent ticket starting from Lime Street, South Parkway or Chester plus a single on Merseyrail?

Often it is cheaper, yes, but there is also the simplicity issue.

IME the issue is not that Merseyrail won't sell tickets to stations outside their network, it is that they won't issue Ticket on Departure from online retailers. The TSA says all Merseyrail-operated stations can issue reservations, too.

The issue is that Merseyrail- like London Overground/TfL Rail- have a very simple suburban remit. Their bread and butter is return tickets to town. They have no interest or incentive to offer wider services. We see the same thing with Heathrow Express, who are even more restrictive.

It is a shame that Northern/TPE/RDG/whoever don't put their own TVMs in at key stations, in a similar way that ToD machines have recently been installed at Heathrow Airport.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The issue is that Merseyrail- like London Overground/TfL Rail- have a very simple suburban remit.

Yet it's said upthread that LO/TfL Rail do ToD.

Their bread and butter is return tickets to town. They have no interest or incentive to offer wider services. We see the same thing with Heathrow Express, who are even more restrictive.

HEx are not a TOC.

 

[Tetchytyke]

HEx are not a TOC.

Indeed they're not, but Heathrow Connect are and HEx accept tickets that are issued through to/from Heathrow Airport on their services.

But Merseyrail are the same as HEx in that they cannot be compelled to issue ToD. Unless another TOC or the RDG are prepared to invest in the machines, then Merseyrail don't have to change anything. If they do then I'll be delighted, but they don't have to.

LO/TfL Rail can issue ToD. But then there are issues at some stations managed by London Underground, e.g. Amersham.

 

[Tetchytyke]

From the other thread:

I believe the OP was buying a flexible ticket, so yes. What if, though, he wanted an Advance ticket and didn't want to visit the local station until the day of travel?

The TSA says Merseyrail stations can issue reservations, and so they should be able to sell advance tickets.

What you can't do is collect advance tickets that were sold by an online retailer.

 

[joke2711]

Is a through ticket from a Merseyrail station any cheaper than buying the equivalent ticket starting from Lime Street, South Parkway or Chester plus a single on Merseyrail? If so then perhaps websites shouldn't offer these tickets but instead ask passengers to buy their own ticket to the interchange station and allow time to use ToD there. This obviously wouldn't work at Southport, Ormskirk or Kirkby if Northern doesn't have TVMs there.

Yes and it is really annoying. I often through my work get Hoylake to Euston (advance first) which is cheaper (as much as £30) than Liverpool to London on the same train. I then have to make sure that I can collect my ticket in advance. In most cases it isn't a problem but sometimes I can only collect on the day of travel so have to buy an additional single ticket at £4.05 to get to Lime Street.

Merseyrail should really be forced into doing something ...