Lack of train crew on Great Northern?

[fIIsion]

Wondering if anyone on here (possibly Great Northern staff?) have any idea why train crew availability is so dire at the moment for Great Northern? Specifically the route between Kings Lynn and London Kings Cross.

Great Northern are advertising in advance of reduced services due to lack of train crew. This has been going on for years but maybe it’s just me but it feels like this is getting worse.

I work in the rail industry and know all too well about school holidays, Christmas or a major sporting event when drivers suddenly become quite poorly but this feels like something more!

Does Great Northern simply have a lack of drivers or is this more a scheduling issue?

 

[MikeWM]

It's been going on since GTR took over just over 10 years ago, and they've never got on top of it, despite inital promises of a massive driver recruitment campaign.

It does seem particularly poor right now though. Tomorrow especially, given that this is the only weekend in October/November that they are *supposed* to be running a full service, with engineering work due to Cambridge South and/or Cambridge resignalling works every other weekend resulting in them running a massively reduced service anyway.

I will say that with covid, then the strikes, then the seemingly endless weekend closures, along with the never-ending Saturday driver shortages, and the fairly recent development of putting 700s on most of the Saturday Ely-London services, I've totally - probably permanently, as this succession of issues has gone on for so long - got out of the habit I had for many many years of visiting London almost every weekend. Good for my bank balance but I don't see that this is good for the railway; certainly they're getting rather a lot less money out of me annually than if I'd kept up this habit.

 

[ExRes]

According to a BBC article a GTR spokesperson said "A combination of driver training, sickness and annual leave can some times take GTR to a position where they find it challenging to cover the service. GTR is continuously recruiting more drivers to help with this issue but it takes about 18 months to fully train a driver"

Does this GTR, and whatever else they've been called, spokesperson know that they've been wheeling out the same excuses and claims for 18 years or more?

 

[43066]

Does Great Northern simply have a lack of drivers or is this more a scheduling issue?

Depot specific route knowledge doesn’t help as it makes cross coverage between depots much harder. There are moves to increase knowledge in certain depots (from an insider) but of course management don’t want to admit it was the wrong approach to begin with…

Annual leave is also a known quantity (rostered leave plus a limited number of ad hoc slots per day), so that’s a bit of an excuse.

 

[choochoochoo]

Also GTR management are apparently being stingy on the overtime. Drivers aren’t prepared to give up their rest days for the pay they’re being offered to do overtime.

There use to be offers of 12 hours pay for maybe 7 hours overtime work. But that’s dried up apparently. Even at the end of their regular day, they’re only being offered the actual time worked to do the company any favours. So given this along with the recent payrise they’ve been given lots of drivers aren’t interested in coming in on their days off.

Also the back pay recently received might push those drivers who usually grab the overtime in to the highest tax bracket so they’ve also got less incentive to accept more overtime until next tax year.

If it continues, I wonder if GTR may need to revise their rest day agreements to incentivise drivers to come in.

 

[Tram203]

I wonder if today, the diversion of all Thameslink services that usually serve London Bridge is partly the cause, due to lack of route knowledge.

Only the Luton - Rainham trains are serving London Bridge today. Everything else which usually would is diverted between Blackfriars and East Croydon via Elephant & Castle and Streatham.

 

[riceuten]

It is getting worse. Evenings and weekends in particular are a shadow of what they used to be.

I've certainly heard plenty of fairy tales from senior management about recruiting sufficient staff to run the service - how many years have we been hearing this for? There's almost no incentive for GTR to improve, and every incentive for them to completely phone it in, providing a barely adequate service, and getting themselves off the hook by precancelling services in advance. They also rely on outdated tabloid stereotypes of "greedy" train drivers living the life of Riley at the travelling publics' expense as part of their PR strategy

 

[Magdalen Road]

There’s also a recurring theme of only four carriages instead of eight on the Kings Lynn - Kings Cross services. Not great during commuting hours particularly coupled with cancelled trains.
The last couple of months do seem to be worse than before. I’m now late for work more often than on time. Frankly the commute is miserable.

 

[thedbdiboy]

Also GTR management are apparently being stingy on the overtime. Drivers aren’t prepared to give up their rest days for the pay they’re being offered to do overtime.

There use to be offers of 12 hours pay for maybe 7 hours overtime work. But that’s dried up apparently. Even at the end of their regular day, they’re only being offered the actual time worked to do the company any favours. So given this along with the recent payrise they’ve been given lots of drivers aren’t interested in coming in on their days off.

Also the back pay recently received might push those drivers who usually grab the overtime in to the highest tax bracket so they’ve also got less incentive to accept more overtime until next tax year.

If it continues, I wonder if GTR may need to revise their rest day agreements to incentivise drivers to come in.

The tax situation ironically but very effectively illustrates the fallacy of continually jacking up marginal tax rates to the point where people who don't have to work longer hours decide it's not worth doing so.

 

[Bald Rick]

Back pay came through 2 weeks ago, which rather disincentives many to work further rest days.

 

[dk1]

There’s also a recurring theme of only four carriages instead of eight on the Kings Lynn - Kings Cross services. Not great during commuting hours particularly coupled with cancelled trains.
The last couple of months do seem to be worse than before. I’m now late for work more often than on time. Frankly the commute is miserable.

Only noticed that yesterday. Not passed a 4-car north of Cambridge for a year or more until yesterday. Quite amusing watching the dismayed punters run at Waterbeach.

 

[Magdalen Road]

Not so amusing when you're one of those commuters running with a full backpack.

 

[Taunton]

The tax situation ironically but very effectively illustrates the fallacy of continually jacking up marginal tax rates to the point where people who don't have to work longer hours decide it's not worth doing so.

The real issue now is that such high percentage tax rates never really anticipated including those who are paid by the hour. For those who classically received high pay, say £100k+ nowadays, they were typically getting that as salary, or salary plus overall bonus, sales commission, or whatever.

Having work shifts which are optional is another aspect. I am familiar with union pay rates in the USA, some of which are indeed very high. But part of the deal is that work shifts are covered, in various ways, and the union has signed up to this and plays its part in delivering their side of the bargain. Union dues in the USA are commonly a percentage of total pay, instead of flat fees, so members not working shifts and trains not covered leads to a reduction in union income - decidedly unwelcome.

 

[Snow1964]

Having work shifts which are optional is another aspect. I am familiar with union pay rates in the USA, some of which are indeed very high. But part of the deal is that work shifts are covered, in various ways,

And that is significant difference, in USA shifts are covered

In UK sign upto Business Commitments with DfT of first, last train and frequency, and then don't staff it sufficiently to cover commitments, instead hoping (on wing and prayer basis) that lots of staff will volunteer for overtime (lots more time than is the norm these days)

 

[MikeWM]

The real issue now is that such high percentage tax rates never really anticipated including those who are paid by the hour. For those who classically received high pay, say £100k+ nowadays, they were typically getting that as salary, or salary plus overall bonus, sales commission, or whatever.

Yes - and having an actual cliff-edge at 100k for many people is deeply unhelpful. A sensible tax system has you always getting more net when your gross pay increases, even as you move up the bands. A stupid one is where people are *actually* worse off at 101k than at 99k, which is currently the case for many people.

Though as a passenger, it is rather tedious after 2 years of strikes that it appears that the *resolution* to the strikes is now causing large amounts of weekend disruption, even if the effect will be only for the next few months.

To be slightly fair, GTR did run a not-far-off-normal service on Saturday on the Cambridge side, despite the advance warning which usually means the service is massively reduced. Nevertheless, they still managed to irritate me on Saturday by leaving me and dozens of other people on a rather desolate platform at Stevenage as a result of deciding to skip-stop Stevenage and Hitchin on a slightly-late-running Thameslink service, while keeping in the all-important Ashwell & Morden stop, which you may have thought would be a rather better candidate for skipping if making up a couple of minutes was so important. As a result I was > 40 minutes later than I ought to have been getting home.

Just to increase my irritation, I was told at the ticket office they don't do paper delay repay forms anymore, and you *have* to apply on the internet. On asking what people without internet access are supposed to do, I was given the answer is to send an email to customer services (!). I was rather too speechless at the absurdity of that reply to continue the conversation... The level of contempt they have for their passengers is astonishing.

 

[miami]

The 100k "cliff" is the sudden loss of money for free childcare, not tax specific, and not the only "benefit cliff". Tax alone at 100k is marginal of 62% (71% if you have a student loan).

There was another similar bracket until this year from 50k-60k when child benefit was reduced, pushing marginal tax of those with 3 kids and a student loan up about 75%.

I don't understand the constant reliance on overtime. Why can't the TOCs employ more people -- it's not like there's a shortage of those wanting to apply. Surely paying for 40 hours overtime a week costs more than paying for 40 hours of regular time?

 

[12LDA28C]

I don't understand the constant reliance on overtime. Why can't the TOCs employ more people -- it's not like there's a shortage of those wanting to apply. Surely paying for 40 hours overtime a week costs more than paying for 40 hours of regular time?

This has been covered many times. The point is that the TOC won't have to pay for 40 hours overtime every week - it's cheaper for the employer to pay for overtime and/or Rest Day Work when there is a shortfall in staff available, which won't be for every week of the year. Employing just one more full-time driver means an additional annual salary plus pension contributions and so on. It's always been cheaper to run the railway on overtime which is why Sunday is still outside the working week at many Operators.

 

[miami]

The assertion is

This has been going on for years but maybe it’s just me but it feels like this is getting worse.

Either that's right, in which case hiring new staff would have been sensible, or it's wrong - which is it?

 

[Snow1964]

This has been covered many times. The point is that the TOC won't have to pay for 40 hours overtime every week - it's cheaper for the employer to pay for overtime and/or Rest Day Work when there is a shortfall in staff available, which won't be for every week of the year. Employing just one more full-time driver means an additional annual salary plus pension contributions and so on. It's always been cheaper to run the railway on overtime which is why Sunday is still outside the working week at many Operators.

Unless there is no employer pension contribution on overtime, saying it costs more than contribution on extra employee is wrong.

Basically payroll is computerised so marginal cost of having extra employees on the system is negligible. The only extra real cost of more employees is on the job training (It is not much extra for theory training where cost of teaching a class of 10 is virtually same as running it for 2 or 3, just need slightly bigger room).

There is also a mathematical formula (forgotten its name) which basically says the bigger the number, more efficient things get. As example if you have a depot with 100 there will be lots of dead time around breaks, the more staff you have, easier it becomes to roster more efficiently. Never going to get to 100% utilisation during non break and lunch, but get closer with higher numbers. These kind of calculations are often ignored by poor managers because they find it difficult to understand and appraise.

 

[Bald Rick]

There is no employer pension contribution on overtime.

 

[miami]

Overtime at my job is 50% of the normal hourly rate. Pension contribution is 6% (but not on overtime)

Employing someone at £50k for 2000 hours with 280 hours of leave and 8% pension contribution would cost £60k, or £30 an hour

2000 hours overtime at a base rate of £25 an hour would be £85,500 including NI contribution, or £42.75 an hour

 

[Magdalia]

There is no employer pension contribution on overtime.

Which is one reason why employers prefer overtime to employing more staff.

Basically payroll is computerised so marginal cost of having extra employees on the system is negligible. The only extra real cost of more employees is on the job training (It is not much extra for theory training where cost of teaching a class of 10 is virtually same as running it for 2 or 3, just need slightly bigger room).

For train drivers recruitment and training costs are significant. Some of that training is not classroom based and needs one to one tuition.

The problems on the GN go all the way back to the franchise change from WAGN to FCC about 20 years ago. One of the problems with franchising is that it is easy for outgoing franchise holders to save money by reducing recruitment in the last years of the franchise term, knowing that it is not a problem for them but for the incoming franchise holder.

 

[43066]

Overtime at my job is 50% of the normal hourly rate. Pension contribution is 6% (but not on overtime)

Employing someone at £50k for 2000 hours with 280 hours of leave and 8% pension contribution would cost £60k, or £30 an hour

2000 hours overtime at a base rate of £25 an hour would be £85,500 including NI contribution, or £42.75 an hour

How is any of the above relevant to this discussion?

 

[12LDA28C]

How is any of the above relevant to this discussion?

I wondered that myself. For a start, it doesn't take into account the fact that at most TOCs, a shortfall in numbers of available traincrew is not year-round but seasonal, or related to a spike in sickness. There will usually be more vacancies in the roster (leading to more RDW available) for example in 'peak' summer leave season or Christmas week than there will be in November or February. It's at these quiet times of year when TOCs save money by not having a full establishment of drivers on their books, by not paying an excessive number of drivers to sit around spare. It's simple economics, not rocket science.

 

[Sleepy]

The problem in some areas is so much overtime has been available that staff /their family have either had enough with fatigue with the addition of back pay in the equation now. My depot which normally covers Sunday work very well had a large number of uncovered turns intially for yesterday. Another observation recently was the younger people joining the railway are not so likely to want to work both Saturday and Sunday together regularly especially when more anti-social types are causing problems which some TOCs don't want to tackle.

 

[Class15]

Today it seems to be TL worst affected, two trains in a row from Blackfriars to Kentish Town (16:39 and 16:49) cancelled. Had to sit at Blackfriars for around 20 minutes!

 

[Snow1964]

I wondered that myself. For a start, it doesn't take into account the fact that at most TOCs, a shortfall in numbers of available traincrew is not year-round but seasonal, or related to a spike in sickness. There will usually be more vacancies in the roster (leading to more RDW available) for example in 'peak' summer leave season or Christmas week than there will be in November or February. It's at these quiet times of year when TOCs save money by not having a full establishment of drivers on their books, by not paying an excessive number of drivers to sit around spare. It's simple economics, not rocket science.

But it's also their stupidity (or inability to negotiate with unions), as in some industries with strong peak seasons, there are limits on holidays (no more than x allowed to book that week, first come first served), or holiday or pay rate multipliers where might get for instance 1.5 days holiday for every day taken in slack season. Basically trying to balance demand across the year.

Quite why the railways with known peak and slack weeks, treat them all as equal value, rather than incentivising to discourage lots of booking holidays at selected busy dates is beyond ratIonal thinking. Could you imagine a theatre with a pantomime giving staff free choice to book holidays then, obviously not.

 

[miami]

How is any of the above relevant to this discussion?

I'm assuming that TOC overtime is a similar 50% uplift and pensions are a similar 8%.

Now if TOCs aren't paying time-and-a-half for overtime, and offer 50% of the base salary in pensions, that's different. Seems a crazy deal to me.

If instead it's a scheduling problem and they have enough hours each year worked without overtime, then they need to fix the scheduling. Other industries that are far more important manage this.

 

[dk1]

But it's also their stupidity (or inability to negotiate with unions), as in some industries with strong peak seasons, there are limits on holidays (no more than x allowed to book that week, first come first served), or holiday or pay rate multipliers where might get for instance 1.5 days holiday for every day taken in slack season. Basically trying to balance demand across the year.

Quite why the railways with known peak and slack weeks, treat them all as equal value, rather than incentivising to discourage lots of booking holidays at selected busy dates is beyond ratIonal thinking. Could you imagine a theatre with a pantomime giving staff free choice to book holidays then, obviously not.

Traincrew holiday rostering is very strict. Only a set amount are available for each period. It’s not a free for all.

Odd days are treated in a similar way with a maximum number guaranteed each day with any after that reliant on cover being available.

It isn’t any drivers fault that any given TOC is short of staff that therefore lead to cancellations.

 

[43066]

I'm assuming that TOC overtime is a similar 50% uplift and pensions are a similar 8%.

Now if TOCs aren't paying time-and-a-half for overtime, and offer 50% of the base salary in pensions, that's different. Seems a crazy deal to me.

If instead it's a scheduling problem and they have enough hours each year worked without overtime, then they need to fix the scheduling. Other industries that are far more important manage this.

It varies by TOC. Where I am rest day work is paid at time and a half (150%), which is fairly lucrative on a long shift. Others less generous. GN I believe pay a generous uplift for Sundays, but much less so on other days of the week (flat time or a small book on fee @whoosh may be able to confirm), hence many will feel it isn’t worth it.

SE (as another example) still AIUI pay a booking on fee of £45 and flat rate, which is pathetic, and hasn’t changed for years.

Overtime is not pensionable as a rule.

If instead it's a scheduling problem and they have enough hours each year worked without overtime, then they need to fix the scheduling. Other industries that are far more important manage this.

I don’t follow this point. A lot of industries rely on overtime and suffer from staff shortages. Their “importance” is a value judgment, and has nothing to do with it.

It’s notable that freight, open access, Eurostar etc. also rely on overtime, but seem to be able to run their operations without chronic staff shortages. I suspect that largely because they’re free to bargain more easily with the employees without having to get DfT sign off, which shows it can be done.