Ladywell (LAD) to Luton (LUT) via Catford (CTF)

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MikeWh

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Just testing out this route as an alternative option for a site visitor. brfares.com says that there is one standard class single fare LAD-LUT at £21. When you put the journey into NRE for travel tomorrow if offers three different fares (£19.30, £21.20 and £23.30) described as off-peak or anytime but valid on just the one itinerary. If NRE chooses a crappy LM type site then the site says it can't find any fares for LAD-LUT via CTF. If it chooses a WebTIS site then all is well and the £21 fare is offered as expected. Well ok if you were expecting to pay more, but ...

Can anyone explain where NRE is getting those fares from?
 
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Romilly

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NRE says that:

£19.30 is £4.30 Ladywell-Blackfriars plus £15 offpeak Blackfriars-Luton

£23.30 is £2.30 Ladywell-Catford Bridge plus £21 Catford Bridge-Luton

£21.20 is £4.30 Ladywell-Blackfriars plus £16.90 anytime Blackfriars-Luton
 

MikeWh

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NRE says that:

£19.30 is £4.30 Ladywell-Blackfriars plus £15 offpeak Blackfriars-Luton

£23.30 is £2.30 Ladywell-Catford Bridge plus £21 Catford Bridge-Luton

£21.20 is £4.30 Ladywell-Blackfriars plus £16.90 anytime Blackfriars-Luton

Interesting, thanks. Do you agree with WebTIS's interpretation that Ladywell to Luton is valid via Catford?
 

Romilly

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I am not sure: Lewisham, New Cross and Beckenham Junction are valid routeing points for Ladywell for Ladywell-Luton journeys, and West Hampstead is the only valid routeing point for Luton for Ladywell-Luton journeys (whether, in either case, any permitted or via Catford).

The permitted routes from Lewisham, New Cross and Beckenham Junction to West Hampstead are "London".

The permitted routes from Lewisham and New Cross to London are on Map BR, which doesn't seem to help with journeys via Catford.

The permitted routes from Beckenham Junction to London are on Map FC or Map FH or Map TU. I find it hard to make sense of the red lines on the maps in these inner urban areas, but I think that it is only Map TU that is relevant. But strictly I think that means that one has to go from Ladywell to Beckenham Junction before then travelling into London.

If you put "via Beckenham Junction" into NRE you do then get the £21 fare, although NRE wants you to go to Clock House, walk to Kent House, and then go to Beckenham Junction before going on to Luton. EDIT: but WEBTIS doesn't like the double-back this involves, so for £21 "via Beckenham Junction" suggests going via Catford Bridge, Catford and Shortlands before going on to Beckenham Junction and Luton.
 
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MikeWh

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Thanks for your help.

If you put "via Beckenham Junction" into NRE you do then get the £21 fare, although NRE wants you to go to Clock House, walk to Kent House, and then go to Beckenham Junction before going on to Luton.

I'd say that validates it, albeit with (two?) breaks of journey and a missing bit. Ladywell to Clock House goes through Catford Bridge and Beckenham Junction to Luton goes through Catford.
 

Romilly

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Except that Beckenham Junction to Luton does not go through Catford ....


EDIT: however, NRE is quite happy to offer the £21 fare for Lewisham to Luton via the walk between Catford Bridge and Catford, so one could start short with that. And WEBTIS is happy with that as well.
 
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MikeWh

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Except that Beckenham Junction to Luton does not go through Catford ....

Doh, was switching the position of Shortlands and Beckenham Junction in my mind.
 

Paul Kelly

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One time somebody described a certain journey as one that "made puffs of smoke come out of the routeing guide" and I think this is one of those. It's clearly a very reasonable route and indeed the default one that even NRE comes up with. The problem is simply that the first routeing point encountered in the journey (Nunhead) is not associated with the origin station (Ladywell) and thus cannot be an appropriate origin routeing point for the journey.

There are lots of cases where stations should have a routeing point on the other side of a walk associated with them (and indeed the walk between Catford Bridge and Catford is shorter than the walk between platforms at many other stations). But the routeing guide doesn't account for any of these and it simply fails to compute in these cases.

In many (perhaps even most) of the cases with a walk near the start or end of the journey, the walk will make the route shorter than the shortest route by rail and so it will be permitted by that reasoning, but this doesn't apply here as the shortest route involves taking the Underground across London (e.g. London Bridge to King's Cross St Pancras) - the mileage involved in staying on a through Thameslink train means it will never be the shortest route to go that way.
 

buzzword

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I'm piggybacking onto this thread as it's a similar question. I'm travelling from Kingston (KNG) to Luton Airport early in the morning. We'll use Luton Airport Parkway (LTN) to keep the examples simple; the airport itself is just a short bus journey away.

The standard anytime single fare is £15.50, route "Any Permitted" including using the underground between Vauxhall and Kings Cross / St Pancras. Since I'm travelling with luggage, I'd like to minimise the number of changes. The obvious journey therefore is to change at Wimbledon (WIM) for the direct Thameslink service to LTN.

But here's what the journey planner tells me:

KNG - LTN - fare
06:29 08:07 £15.50 change at Richmond and at West Hampstead
06:33 08:20 £19.70 change at Wimbledon
06:59 08:37 £15.50 change at Richmond and at West Hampstead
07:18 08:49 £15.50 change at Vauxhall and at Kings Cross / St Pancras


Since the £15.50 fare is "any permitted", why isn't it valid on the 06:33 departure? And would the ticket machine in Kingston even sell me the £19.70 ticket? It doesn't show up on brfares.com. Most importantly, would I be allowed to use (or at least get away with using) the £15.50 ticket on the 06:33 service?
 

Paul Kelly

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Since the £15.50 fare is "any permitted", why isn't it valid on the 06:33 departure?
The only map combination for Kingston to West Hampstead Thameslink (which is the destination routeing point for Luton Airport Parkway) is LONDON, therefore we need to check the routeing maps between Kingston and London Group.

The simple answer is then that the route (via Streatham and Loughborough Junction) followed by the Thameslink train is not a mapped route from Kingston to London. The only allowable routes are map WX (which permits via Twickenham, Barnes and Clapham Junction) or map WW (which permits via Wimbledon and Clapham Junction).
 

Paul Kelly

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I should add, that it's a very reasonable route - you should take it anyway and invoke the disputed route procedure if challenged, which I can say very confidently you won't be!
 
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