Landslip at Wanborough

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Horizon22

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The North Downs line has had some issues over the past week with speed restrictions due to a track defect but has now been escalated as a landslip at Wanborough with earthworks required to rectify the issue. The Up Line is currently blocked and is expected to open around 9-11th January. Trains are terminating at Ash.
 
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JonathanH

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The North Downs line has had some issues over the past week with speed restrictions due to a track defect but has now been escalated as a landslip at Wanborough with earthworks required to be escalated. The Up Line is currently blocked and is expected to open around 9-11th January. Trains are terminating at Ash.
It appears that only one Turbo was east of the landslip at the time it happened so no trains appear to have run after it was identified.

That unit appears to be shown returning empty to Reading this morning.
5Z59 1140 Redhill to Reading Traincare Depot
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/84919/2020-12-28/detailed
 
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infobleep

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Rather unfortunate timing that only 1 train was east of Ash. Saying that, isn't it the case that there are no stabling facilities around Redhill, meaning they wouldn't be able to run a service anywwy.

Fortunately not many people travelling due to tier 4 restrictions.

Obviously this will affect the Guildford to Farnham and Sundays only Guildford to Ascot services.

I see GWR are running rail replacement buses from North Camp to Redhill.

South Western Railway are telling people to contact staff for Ash / Wanborough or use some Stagecoach bus routes.

 

Horizon22

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Rather unfortunate timing that only 1 train was east of Ash. Saying that, isn't it the case that there are no stabling facilities around Redhill, meaning they wouldn't be able to run a service anywwy.

Fortunately not many people travelling due to tier 4 restrictions.

Obviously this will affect the Guildford to Farnham and Sundays only Guildford to Ascot services.

I see GWR are running rail replacement buses from North Camp to Redhill.

South Western Railway are telling people to contact staff for Ash / Wanborough or use some Stagecoach bus routes.


Also think there would be some crew implications as well, but as you say the stabling would be an issue without potentially taking part of Platform 0 or 1 out at Redhill.
 

JonathanH

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I see GWR are running rail replacement buses from North Camp to Redhill.
While I guess that hardly anyone would be travelling, a timetable for the rail replacement buses would be helpful. Mind you, Ash to Redhill is quite a distance to be able to source rail replacement buses at short notice.
 
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Is it still the case that some Southern Redhill crews work a few North Downs services on behalf of GWR? If so, how feasible would it be for a Redhill - Guildford shuttle using 171s - not immediately, but if the line is closed for two weeks? I appreciate that it may be totally impossible for some reason or another (e.g Southern crews who sign 165 don't sign 171?) so I expect to be shot down in flames!
 

steamybrian

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Also think there would be some crew implications as well, but as you say the stabling would be an issue without potentially taking part of Platform 0 or 1 out at Redhill.
At Redhill surely a 3 car unit (or two) can be berthed in the London end of platform 1 or the old loco sidings..?
I agree with "Seimens Staines" that a Guildford to Redhill shuttle using two units should be feasible.
 

JonathanH

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Is it still the case that some Southern Redhill crews work a few North Downs services on behalf of GWR? If so, how feasible would it be for a Redhill - Guildford shuttle using 171s - not immediately, but if the line is closed for two weeks? I appreciate that it may be totally impossible for some reason or another (e.g Southern crews who sign 165 don't sign 171?) so I expect to be shot down in flames!
Not at all - the Southern drivers at Redhill who cover shifts for GWR won't sign 171s. GWR use its own conductors for the North Downs route based at Redhill.

At Redhill surely a 3 car unit (or two) can be berthed in the London end of platform 1 or the old loco sidings..?
I agree with "Seimens Staines" that a Guildford to Redhill shuttle using two units should be feasible.
You still need to fuel the units - the route knowledge / clearance to go to Selhurst which was put in place during Reading remodelling wasn't maintained.

I suspect that clearance to run Reading - Basingstoke - Woking - Guildford wasn't maintained either.

Running empty stock on the down line past the slip doesn't look that easy either.
 
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Not at all - the Southern drivers at Redhill who cover shifts for GWR won't sign 171s. GWR use its own conductors for the North Downs route based at Redhill.

Fair enough. I had wondered if the Redhill based dmu drivers also worked the Selhurst - Eastbourne ECS workings, but obviously not.
 

steamybrian

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Not at all - the Southern drivers at Redhill who cover shifts for GWR won't sign 171s. GWR use its own conductors for the North Downs route based at Redhill.


You still need to fuel the units - the route knowledge / clearance to go to Selhurst which was put in place during Reading remodelling wasn't maintained.

I suspect that clearance to run Reading - Basingstoke - Woking - Guildford wasn't maintained either.

Running empty stock on the down line past the slip doesn't look that easy either.
Thanks for the information. Looks more complicated that I first thought. Far different from my days working with BR (Southern).!
I will be interested to see how Operations Control resolve to arrange to operate a passenger service between Guildford to Redhill when it is available to traffic.
 

JonathanH

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The route from Guildford to Redhill is available - it is just that there isn't a way of running the trains.

There are some previous comments on the issues from a year ago here, although the point about Redhill loco sidings doesn't now apply:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...y-on-christmas-day.197175/page-2#post-4349023
The infrastructure is available Shalford to Redhill. It’s a combination of factors that combine to thwart any attempts at running a shuttle service from Redhill to the point of obstruction - stabling arrangements at Redhill are still a mess following the ongoing temporary closure of Redhill loco sidings. Also, previous long blocks have seen the units tripped to Selhurst for light servicing, but mods made for them to work in the west have invalidated their gauge clearance for the route. The units can’t have full preps done in platforms at Redhill, and the block is longer than a full prep on the unit lasts; so they’d end up trapped at Redhill out of prep with nowhere to do it. Also while there is a small guards depot at Redhill, and standing arrangement is that Southern provide 2x drivers for N Downs services per day; the service is still predominantly crewed from Reading. With long taxi rides to/from Reading at start and ends of the diagrams it would be hideously inefficient driver-wise, especially when considering the Reading - Ash service still needs crewing. Individually the issues may not be insurmountable, but together it’s well into diminishing returns territory.

The point about diminishing returns would be even more apparent this year with the whole area in Tier 4.
 

infobleep

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The route from Guildford to Redhill is available - it is just that there isn't a way of running the trains.

There are some previous comments on the issues from a year ago here, although the point about Redhill loco sidings doesn't now apply:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...y-on-christmas-day.197175/page-2#post-4349023


The point about diminishing returns would be even more apparent this year with the whole area in Tier 4.
If there is hardly anyone, would taxis be cheaper?
 

paul1609

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At Redhill surely a 3 car unit (or two) can be berthed in the London end of platform 1 or the old loco sidings..?
I agree with "Seimens Staines" that a Guildford to Redhill shuttle using two units should be feasible.
The route from Redhill to Selhurst Depot was specially cleared for 165/6 some years ago to allow them to fuel there when the North Downs lines was blocked. The Southern Redhill drivers have the route/ traction knowledge to take them there.
I think the 165/6s also have access via Brighton to Gatwick Airport (not sure about Platform 3 at Brighton) Id imagine the Redhill drivers will sign Gatwick to brighton.
 
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JonathanH

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The route from Redhill to Selhurst Depot was specially cleared for 165/6 some years ago to allow them to fuel there when the North Downs lines was blocked. The Southern Redhill drivers have the route/ traction knowledge to take them there.
If you read the thread above, this clearance was lost when the Ride Height Modifications were done to allow the Turbos to operate in the West. This modification was made to both the 'LTV' and 'West' units.

I think the 165/6s also have access via Brighton to Gatwick Airport (not sure about Platform 3 at Brighton) Id imagine the Redhill drivers will sign Gatwick to brighton.
When have 165 or 166s ever run south of Three Bridges towards Brighton? Possibly never. Besides the 'West' fleet is operated distinct from the 'LTV' fleet.

Some Redhill drivers are likely to sign both Redhill to Brighton and Turbos.
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...and-traction-cards.205085/page-6#post-4633138

I have a collection of Redhill schedule cards, so the list won't be the full route card, just the routes that were on the schedule cards

London Victoria to Redhill
Redhill to Reigate
Purley to Caterham
Purley to Tattenham Corner
Purley to London Bridge
and possibly the Tonbridge line?
The Bottom Link at Redhill that sounds like! I don’t think they go to Horsham anymore after Thameslink took over those services.

Top Link at Redhill I seem to recall sign all the way to Brighton, the West Coastway Route via Worthing to Littlehampton, the Arun Valley Line to Bognor Regis via Horsham.
 

theironroad

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The North Downs line has had some issues over the past week with speed restrictions due to a track defect but has now been escalated as a landslip at Wanborough with earthworks required to rectify the issue. The Up Line is currently blocked and is expected to open around 9-11th January. Trains are terminating at Ash.

Am I correct in thinking the other line is still open to traffic?
 

paul1609

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If you read the thread above, this clearance was lost when the Ride Height Modifications were done to allow the Turbos to operate in the West. This modification was made to both the 'LTV' and 'West' units.


When have 165 or 166s ever run south of Three Bridges towards Brighton? Possibly never. Besides the 'West' fleet is operated distinct from the 'LTV' fleet.

Some Redhill drivers are likely to sign both Redhill to Brighton and Turbos.
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...and-traction-cards.205085/page-6#post-4633138
Didn't realise about the ride height modifications. I believe that at one stage there was a plan by Thames Trains for some Gatwick trains to be extended to Brighton and that the units were cleared for the route.
Given that the Brighton Line is/ has been cleared for MK3, class 171s, Voyagers, 442s etc. I doubt it would be anything other than a paperwork issue?
 

pompeyfan

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I believe turbos are still cleared via Woking although route knowledge would be prohibitive from a crewing perspective. I mean if you really wanted to play trains you could fuel them at Fratton, along the west coast to Brighton platform 3 then up to Gatwick that way. Alternatively you could accept reality that although practically anything is possible on the railway, it all depends on how much money you want to throw at the problem!
 

JN114

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As previously stated in other threads. 165/166 RHM is counted as “new” for gauging purposes.

Previous route clearance to Brighton, Selhurst, Woking, etc is all now invalid.

The trains are taller than they were, and the very wide sticky out bits, that make them difficult to gauge elsewhere, are 30mm or so further above rail level.

It likely is essentially a paperwork/computer exercise; and it might make a Guildford - Redhill shuttle practical from a unit perspective if that exercise took place. But you still can’t crew it that way - it would need route conductors which isn’t great for social distancing.

And say you overcome that - almost all N Downs jobs are crewed with the same crew Reading - Redhill/Gatwick - Reading. That becomes Taxi - Guildford - Redhill - Guildford - Taxi.

If we had access to more crew from the Redhill end, maybe it would work - But GTR are only obliged to give us 2 drivers a day, and often they struggle to do that.

I’m also of the understanding that Jan 11th is very much a worst-case scenario, and they’re aiming to have it open much sooner than that.
 

theironroad

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Yes - 5Z59 1140 Redhill to Reading Traincare Depot - https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/84919/2020-12-28/detailed used it - wrong line working with a double shunt at Ash isn't going to be easy to set up.

Yes - 5Z59 1140 Redhill to Reading Traincare Depot - https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/84919/2020-12-28/detailed used it - wrong line working with a double shunt at Ash isn't going to be easy to set up.

SLW in wrong direction over the down line would be feasible as all the shunts at Ash are signaller controlled moves via main aspect and GPS and at the Guildford end GPS GD1305 can be used to return trains to into the platforms at GLD. Whether NR can provide a pilot is another question. This could at least allow GWR services to run once an hour. Not sure whether current isolation is in place or whether limits can be reduced to allow SWR to run.

Guess the other issue is whether they want to keep the down line free to allow freight to deliver materiel to the site for works.
 

pompeyfan

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As previously stated in other threads. 165/166 RHM is counted as “new” for gauging purposes.

Previous route clearance to Brighton, Selhurst, Woking, etc is all now invalid.

The trains are taller than they were, and the very wide sticky out bits, that make them difficult to gauge elsewhere, are 30mm or so further above rail level.

It likely is essentially a paperwork/computer exercise; and it might make a Guildford - Redhill shuttle practical from a unit perspective if that exercise took place. But you still can’t crew it that way - it would need route conductors which isn’t great for social distancing.

And say you overcome that - almost all N Downs jobs are crewed with the same crew Reading - Redhill/Gatwick - Reading. That becomes Taxi - Guildford - Redhill - Guildford - Taxi.

If we had access to more crew from the Redhill end, maybe it would work - But GTR are only obliged to give us 2 drivers a day, and often they struggle to do that.

I’m also of the understanding that Jan 11th is very much a worst-case scenario, and they’re aiming to have it open much sooner than that.

i’m about 70% certain that via Woking includes RHM units, as I’ve seen the paperwork recently. Worplesdon, Brookwood and Basingstoke platform 1 have speed restrictions.
 

JonathanH

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Understand the Hastings DEMU is available for a Redhill to Guildford shuttle!
Doesn't satisfy PRM requirements and there are other threads about the ORR sanctioning the use of slam door stock on routes where it doesn't currently operate. Non-starter.
 

swt_passenger

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Not at all - the Southern drivers at Redhill who cover shifts for GWR won't sign 171s. GWR use its own conductors for the North Downs route based at Redhill.


You still need to fuel the units - the route knowledge / clearance to go to Selhurst which was put in place during Reading remodelling wasn't maintained.

I suspect that clearance to run Reading - Basingstoke - Woking - Guildford wasn't maintained either.

Running empty stock on the down line past the slip doesn't look that easy either.
I’d have thought route clearance for the stock would continue by default, unless something was physically altered. But as you say, lack of route knowledge probably means such a move is almost impossible.
 

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The morass of today's stock/route/crewing restrictions makes a stop gap service impossible, yet again, despite there being turn-back options available for a shuttle service from Redhill to, say, Guildford. On top of this, the line south of Dorking (to Horsham) is also now closed by yet another landslip on that route, so Dorking is suffering something of a railway blight at present. There were also engineering diversions planned to use the route which has had significant knock-on effects.
 
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infobleep

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Does anyone know if their is a bus timetable? GWR are reporting problems until 6 January.

Train services running through these stations have been suspended between Ash and Gatwick Airport. Disruption is expected until 04:00 06/01.


I also note that they allow people traveling from Reading to Gatwick to travel via London Victoira. Yet no mention is made of allowing people to travel via Clapham Junction, which would help those travelling from or to Guildford.

Fortunately I have a ticket which enables me to travel from Guildford via Clapham Junction.

I am assuming the lack of trains from Gatwick Airport is due to station works there, regardless of this.
 

Paul180

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Network Rail have put this update on their Twitter account https://twitter.com/NetworkRailWssx/status/1343976292086140929

Engineers are working around the clock to install a sheet pile wall, to prevent the embankment from moving any further. This is likely to last until Monday 11 January. For the time being, there are no services running, but we are aiming to re-open the line by Wednesday 6.

I have to go back to work on Monday 4th as I can't work from home.

I normally go from North Camp to Dorking West but as I can't find much information on the replacement bus and due to the current circumstances with social distancing I don't know if I would be able to get on the bus I am looking at getting a train from Ash Vale - Working - Guildford - Leatherhead - Dorking Main plus I don't trust the rail replacement bus to turn up from past experiences.
 

Horizon22

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I see on national rail enquiries that the reopening date has slipped from the 31/12/2020 to the 04/01/2021.

Not sure how its "slipped" as the original given date was 11th January - they've probably only updated the systems to New Years Eve and have now got a more coherent plan.

Apparently the bus timetable has been 'erratic' at best, but its recently been updated on NRE with extra info on bus times: https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/service_disruptions/262979.aspx

Replacement buses will run between North Camp and Redhill via Guildford.

Estimated bus departure times:

  • Redhill departures: xx:30
  • North Camp departures: xx:00
  • The estimated full journey time is around 80 minutes, traffic permitting
 
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