Landslip at Wanborough

[infobleep]

Not sure how its "slipped" as the original given date was 11th January - they've probably only updated the systems to New Years Eve and have now got a more coherent plan.

Apparently the bus timetable has been 'erratic' at best, but its recently been updated on NRE with extra info on bus times: https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/service_disruptions/262979.aspx

Alas it hasn't made it into the Journey planner and there doesn't seem to be any intermediate times.

I appricate this isn't planned but they must have some idea of how long it takes for the bus to reach places, based on buses running during engineering works.

Someone has managed to at least cancel the trains from the system so they show up.

Is the ability not to add in the bus times due to not enough staff working? Be it due to holidays or simply covid-19 related sickness or self isolation?

 

[Watershed]

Alas it hasn't made it into the Journey planner and there doesn't seem to be any intermediate times.

I appricate this isn't planned but they must have some idea of how long it takes for the bus to reach places, based on buses running during engineering works.

Someone has managed to at least cancel the trains from the system so they show up.

Is the ability not to add in the bus times due to not enough staff working? Be it due to holidays or simply covid-19 related sickness or self isolation?

The fact we're in the Christmas-New Year period seems the most likely explanation. It's quite quick and easy to STP cancel trains and send that over to NR for publication.

By comparison, with potentially just a few people not on holiday, taking the time to produce a timetable for a very short term RRB plan won't necessarily take first priority. Particularly with PSVR now, as you want to minimise the number of buses required so that they can hopefully all be accessible.

 

[infobleep]

The fact we're in the Christmas-New Year period seems the most likely explanation. It's quite quick and easy to STP cancel trains and send that over to NR for publication.

By comparison, with potentially just a few people not on holiday, taking the time to produce a timetable for a very short term RRB plan won't necessarily take first priority. Particularly with PSVR now, as you want to minimise the number of buses required so that they can hopefully all be accessible.

How can they possibly know then what time the buses leave Redhill and Reading? If they do know that and they are publishing the times, surely it must be possible to know the in between times.

 

[Watershed]

How can they possibly know then what time the buses leave Redhill and Reading? If they do know that and they are publishing the times, surely it must be possible to know the in between times.

Control can 'plan' buses (i.e. call their RRB provider and tell them what they need and when) without anything necessarily being timetabled or in the public domain. Those are two different functions performed by different departments but clearly situations like this blur the line somewhat.

 

[JN114]

@Watershed is spot on - While timings are “known” by the railway at large for the purpose of planned replacement during engineering work - these are timetabled by specialist planning staff in planning software weeks or even months in advance. This incident isn’t protracted enough to involve escalating to that level - and control staff who will be arranging it, while having a rough idea (hence “journey times approximately 80 minutes” on NRE); don’t have the knowledge or access to systems to provide that level of detailed planning; nor the capacity to undertake that amount of work.

You have to remember that ”Thames Valley & HEx” control at GWR is in essence 3 people - a fleet/service controller; looking at what the trains themselves do, a traincrew controller; managing all the drivers and guards and ensuring all their jobs are covered, and an info controller; who is ordering road transport; entering info into messaging systems and ensuring the control log is up to date. And they’re not just managing this one incident on the North Downs - every GWR/HEx 387, all the services operated with Reading-based Turbos, plus the IETs on the Bedwyns are managed by that trio.

It’s a different ball game, and one that unfortunately control just can’t really keep up in. It’s not our normal footing; managing an incident for such a protracted period - there is a gap in capabilities. Control are geared up for managing disruptions measured in hours. But planning work weeks in advance - the gap in between is kind of a no mans land, although ultimately control have to pick up the responsibility. Same with the COVID emergency TTs in late March / April. In the first weeks they were done by cancelling existing services down to the minimum sustainable level with the crewing shortages we faced. But after a couple of weeks Train Planning had picked up the ball and the train plan was in systems in advance, no cancellations.

 

[Sean Emmett]

Back in the day, there were diversions for engineering work which ran Reading - Virginia Water (reverse) - Woking - Guildford to pick up the normal route.

Is that option still available for Turbos?

 

[foggy69]

Back in the day, there were diversions for engineering work which ran Reading - Virginia Water (reverse) - Woking - Guildford to pick up the normal route.

Is that option still available for Turbos?

I am not aware of this happening for very many years

 

[davetheguard]

Back in the day, there were diversions for engineering work which ran Reading - Virginia Water (reverse) - Woking - Guildford to pick up the normal route.

Is that option still available for Turbos?

Both Reading & Redhill crews also signed the route from East Croydon to Reading via Clapham Junction & the West London Line & Old Oak Common. Redhill crews also knew Redhill to East Croydon, so it was only Reading crews who had to be conducted over that stretch. This made it a viable alternative route that was used on several occasions.

 

[JonathanH]

Both Reading & Redhill crews also signed the route from East Croydon to Reading via Clapham Junction & the West London Line & Old Oak Common. Redhill crews also knew Redhill to East Croydon, so it was only Reading crews who had to be conducted over that stretch. This made it a viable alternative route that was used on several occasions.

I can't see that route having been available at any point in the Turbo era - Turbos fully took over the North Downs Line by the start of 1994.

 

[infobleep]

Control can 'plan' buses (i.e. call their RRB provider and tell them what they need and when) without anything necessarily being timetabled or in the public domain. Those are two different functions performed by different departments but clearly situations like this blur the line somewhat.

@Watershed is spot on - While timings are “known” by the railway at large for the purpose of planned replacement during engineering work - these are timetabled by specialist planning staff in planning software weeks or even months in advance. This incident isn’t protracted enough to involve escalating to that level - and control staff who will be arranging it, while having a rough idea (hence “journey times approximately 80 minutes” on NRE); don’t have the knowledge or access to systems to provide that level of detailed planning; nor the capacity to undertake that amount of work.

You have to remember that ”Thames Valley & HEx” control at GWR is in essence 3 people - a fleet/service controller; looking at what the trains themselves do, a traincrew controller; managing all the drivers and guards and ensuring all their jobs are covered, and an info controller; who is ordering road transport; entering info into messaging systems and ensuring the control log is up to date. And they’re not just managing this one incident on the North Downs - every GWR/HEx 387, all the services operated with Reading-based Turbos, plus the IETs on the Bedwyns are managed by that trio.

It’s a different ball game, and one that unfortunately control just can’t really keep up in. It’s not our normal footing; managing an incident for such a protracted period - there is a gap in capabilities. Control are geared up for managing disruptions measured in hours. But planning work weeks in advance - the gap in between is kind of a no mans land, although ultimately control have to pick up the responsibility. Same with the COVID emergency TTs in late March / April. In the first weeks they were done by cancelling existing services down to the minimum sustainable level with the crewing shortages we faced. But after a couple of weeks Train Planning had picked up the ball and the train plan was in systems in advance, no cancellations.

Thanks for the detailed replies. Very interesting.

I was kind of thinking is they knew a bus left at x30 for example, they could just look up an old bus timetable and calculate the differences be adding the times on. That of course takes time to do.

My experience of needing to contact GWR was at Chilworth. I pressed the help point and was put through to a National Rail Enquiries call centre. They were going way to find out if a fast train could stop, given the slow ones had been cancelled. Anyway after not hearing anything back for ages, someone else gave someone a lift to a larger station. I was heading in a different direction and not affected myself. I think there may have been not enough mobile phone reception to tweet GWR as I can't remember why that wasn't done.

Hopefully things have improved since then. Hence why knowing a timetable might be helpful, if one is unlikely to get a response via the help point.

 

[davetheguard]

I can't see that route having been available at any point in the Turbo era - Turbos fully took over the North Downs Line by the start of 1994.

You may well be right; my main experience of the route was when it was still being operated by first generation DMUs of classes 117 & 119. At the time the two train crew depots (Reading & Redhill) also worked the Manchester to Brighton Inter City trains which were operated via the Great Western Main Line (GWML) & West London Line (WLL); hence the route knowledge as a diversionary to the North Downs.

Those IC trains were later diverted via Acton Wells Junction & Willesden South West Sidings when the direct connection at Old Oak Common between GWML & WLL was lost to become part of the Eurostar depot; perhaps the route knowledge was lost then too?

 

[JonathanH]

You may well be right; my main experience of the route was when it was still being operated by first generation DMUs of classes 117 & 119. At the time the two train crew depots (Reading & Redhill) also worked the Manchester to Brighton Inter City trains which were operated via the Great Western Main Line (GWML) & West London Line (WLL); hence the route knowledge as a diversionary to the North Downs.

Those IC trains were later diverted via Acton Wells Junction & Willesden South West Sidings when the direct connection at Old Oak Common between GWML & WLL was lost to become part of the Eurostar depot; perhaps the route knowledge was lost then too?

Yes, that what was in the back of my mind - I guess it would have made sense for Reading and Redhill traincrew to run the Brighton XC services prior to sectorisation - I think in its latter days, VXC had crews at Brighton to run the relevant services (and in 2001/02 set up a traincrew depot at Three Bridges) but in Class 47 days, there were definitely occasions where a 73 was reported to have substituted and the service would get diverted via Staines, which suggests that it was not dedicated Intercity crews who worked these services.

I think we know that nowadays, the route and traction clearance for the crews who work the North Downs Line is rather more restricted.

 

[big all]

Both Reading & Redhill crews also signed the route from East Croydon to Reading via Clapham Junction & the West London Line & Old Oak Common. Redhill crews also knew Redhill to East Croydon, so it was only Reading crews who had to be conducted over that stretch. This made it a viable alternative route that was used on several occasions.

I was a Redhill driver until 1994 an we did indeed divert via Clapham and even Guildford Woking and Virginia Water for the Gatwick services on booked diversion.

 

[infobleep]

Yesterday evening, to my surprise, I noticed there was buses showing when planning a journey. This morning not the cawe. Whether they get added during the day I don't know.

If only I'd known I could have made a note of the times yesterday. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

 

[Paul180]

A lot of unhappy residents in the area as the stabilization works are currently running 24/7.

 

[infobleep]

A lot of unhappy residents in the area as the stabilization works are currently running 24/7.

Which came first, the houses beside the railway line or the railway line?

My personal opinion is thta of you leave by a railway line, expect some noise from time to time.

I tweeted GWR to see if they could provide any timing info for the bus. Initially they said they didn't have this info but when I replied saying someone must have it as it was in the journey planner yesterday, they went away to find out.

They hadn't had any reply so told me they thought it was 55 minutes

Compared to what I saw yesterday that seems to low as I'm sure it was over an hour. Anyway I thanked them and left it at that.

I travelled via Clapham Junction.

 

[30907]

I tweeted GWR to see if they could provide any timing info for the bus. Initially they said they didn't have this info but when I replied saying so wine must have it as it was in the journey planner yesterday, they went aqua to find out.

New acronyms or new autocorrects?

 

[KeithMcC]

Went by Shalford station this afternoon - the platform indicators show the next few trains as cancelled but no other information on a bus service shown anywhere.
I have seen some white coaches going up and down the A281 which I assume are the rail replacement service, but how any passenger who turns up at the station is supposed to know this or when one might appear is a mystery.

 

[Alex27]

Replacement bus services

North Camp, Guildford, Dorking Deepdene to Redhill:
- North Camp Departures: 0635, 0823, then xx23 past the hour until 1923, 1955, 2055, 2155, 2345.
- Guildford Departures: 0655, 0843, then xx43 past the hour until 1943, 2020, 2115, 2215, 0010.
- Dorking Deepdene Departures: 0752, 0940, then xx40 past the hour until 2040, 2112, 2312, 0102.

Redhill, Dorking Deepdene and Guildford to North Camp
- Redhill Departures: 0625, 0843, then xx43 past the hour until 1943, 2031, 2116, 2230, 2317 (Bus throughout to Reading)
- Dorking Deepdene Departures: 0651, 0909, then xx09 past the hour until 2009, 2057, 2142, 2256, 2343 (Bus throughout to Reading.
- Guildford Departures: 0745, 1003, then xx03 past the hour until 2103, 2151, 2236, 2350, 0037 (Bus throughout to Reading)

 

[Minstral25]

Replacement bus services

North Camp, Guildford, Dorking Deepdene to Redhill:
- North Camp Departures: 0635, 0823, then xx23 past the hour until 1923, 1955, 2055, 2155, 2345.
- Guildford Departures: 0655, 0843, then xx43 past the hour until 1943, 2020, 2115, 2215, 0010.
- Dorking Deepdene Departures: 0752, 0940, then xx40 past the hour until 2040, 2112, 2312, 0102.

Redhill, Dorking Deepdene and Guildford to North Camp
- Redhill Departures: 0625, 0843, then xx43 past the hour until 1943, 2031, 2116, 2230, 2317 (Bus throughout to Reading)
- Dorking Deepdene Departures: 0651, 0909, then xx09 past the hour until 2009, 2057, 2142, 2256, 2343 (Bus throughout to Reading.
- Guildford Departures: 0745, 1003, then xx03 past the hour until 2103, 2151, 2236, 2350, 0037 (Bus throughout to Reading)

That's just for Sunday - no clues issued yet (at 8:45pm) for bus services on Monday by GWR. Aware there are a few NHS staff using the early morning GW services from Dorking area to Redhill for connections so rather disappointing no advance notice.

 

[JonathanH]

The board at Reigate says:
[Picture shows handwritten bus times in one direction from Reigate]

If buses are at xx40 from Reigate (as shown in the picture hourly from 0640 onwards to 2345) then I assume they are xx30 from Redhill.

The first train from Reading to Ash tomorrow morning is at 0458, arriving North Camp at 0529, so presumably there is a bus departing there at 0535. That would suggest something from Dorking Deepdene around 0630 but it is clearly difficult to guess.

A picture of a replacement bus at Reigate (Passenger Plus YK69WKP) below.

 

[infobleep]

New acronyms or new autocorrects?

It certainly wasn't the wine talking.

I notice today suddenly the bus times have returned. It's as if the person who is responsible for doing that doesn't work weekends and there was no one else to do it.

I no longer need to travel before the works are completed but I might take a note of the timings in case it ever comes handy in future.

I'd probably have no chance of getting hold of this information than the Twitter staff working for GWR would, especially if their is staff off sick or isolating.

The board at Reigate says:View attachment 88142
[Picture shows handwritten bus times in one direction from Reigate]

If buses are at xx40 from Reigate (as shown in the picture hourly from 0640 onwards to 2345) then I assume they are xx30 from Redhill.

The first train from Reading to Ash tomorrow morning is at 0458, arriving North Camp at 0529, so presumably there is a bus departing there at 0535. That would suggest something from Dorking Deepdene around 0630 but it is clearly difficult to guess.

A picture of a replacement bus at Reigate (Passenger Plus YK69WKP) below.

View attachment 88143

I wonder if they had a handwritten poster up for Saturday.

If someone did have the times handwritten on Saturday, it begs the question how they got hold of them when tthe Twitter staff couldn't. Perhaps they were able to guess the times based on previous buses during other engineering works.

II ended up traveling via Clapham Junction both ways as I didn't wish to rely on buses, for which I didn't have any times relating to Guildford.

 

[Watershed]

It's as if the person who is responsible for doing that doesn't work weekends and there was no one else to do it.

Most such roles are typically 9-5 M-F. Whilst you might get people in on weekends or out of hours this would normally be reserved for urgent things like the development of the reduced timetable introduced on 23 March 2020, not a landslip.

 

[swt_passenger]

... It's as if the person who is responsible for doing that doesn't work weekends and there was no one else to do it.

But isn’t that basically what @JN114 already explained in post #35?

 

[strimmer]

Local radio reporting that the slip is near Westwood Lane Bridge. Having driven under the bridge many times, I can confirm that it's on a fairly high embankment. There was an embankment slip in Beech Lane, which is off Westwood Lane, in January 1986.

 

[infobleep]

But isn’t that basically what @JN114 already explained in post #35?

It may well be but I'd kind of thought if the info was added on a Friday, it would be avilable for someone else in GWR to use on the Saturday.

 

[Paul180]

All going well the line should be open tomorrow morning.

https://twitter.com/NetworkRailWssx/status/1346523875010600962

I've checked with the project manager and the plan is to reopen the line between Ash and Guildford from tomorrow morning. We'll still be in the area to complete the repairs

I did ask the rail replacement bus driver this evening and as far as he knew they weren't booked to run tomorrow (06/01/2021).

 

[Deepgreen]

This incident has shown clearly how the railway has painted itself into a corner over the last few decades regarding its ability to run emergency diversions/shuttles, etc. The driver training and rolling stock specialisations/incompatibilities today mean that it almost always easier just to run buses instead and give up on rail shuttles. In BR days, it would have been hard to imagine that a Guildford to Redhill rail shuttle could not be run. Some might think that it's OK in the era of C19 with its lighter traffic, but social distancing on a train is far easier than on a small bus with one door.

The board at Reigate says:View attachment 88142
[Picture shows handwritten bus times in one direction from Reigate]

If buses are at xx40 from Reigate (as shown in the picture hourly from 0640 onwards to 2345) then I assume they are xx30 from Redhill.

The first train from Reading to Ash tomorrow morning is at 0458, arriving North Camp at 0529, so presumably there is a bus departing there at 0535. That would suggest something from Dorking Deepdene around 0630 but it is clearly difficult to guess.

A picture of a replacement bus at Reigate (Passenger Plus YK69WKP) below.

View attachment 88143

As an aside, this Reigate picture has reminded me of a question I have wondered about for a while - namely why the cobbled area has been retained here rather than being included in the tarmac area. I like the cobbles but they are more slippery and difficult to walk on than tarmac.

 

[DelW]

As an aside, this Reigate picture has reminded me of a question I have wondered about for a while - namely why the cobbled area has been retained here rather than being included in the tarmac area. I like the cobbles but they are more slippery and difficult to walk on than tarmac.

A possibility is that it's because they are more resistant to softening caused by oil or fuel dripping from standing vehicles. Tarmac hasn't been easily available for decades (it was a by-product of town gas production) and its replacement (bitumen macadam or bit-mac) is softened by oil dissolving its binder.
Other options are concrete slabs or block paving, or some kinds of asphalt.

 

[TEW]

Wanborough Landslip

Repaired trackbed near Wanborough following a recent landslip.

www.flickr.com

Wanborough Landslip

Repaired trackbed near Wanborough following a recent landslip.

www.flickr.com

Wanborough Landslip

Repaired trackbed near Wanborough following a recent landslip.

www.flickr.com

Wanborough Landslip

Repaired trackbed near Wanborough following a recent landslip.

www.flickr.com

Looking much better along there now, still plenty of evidence of ongoing works and short 20mph speed restrictions on both lines.