Landslip between Redhill and Tonbridge

Discussion in 'UK Railway Discussion' started by KingJ, 22 Dec 2019.

  1. ComUtoR

    ComUtoR Established Member

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    We have a bank that has a 30mph restriction on the down but is 50 on the up. Speaking to various PWay folks that have got in my cab over the years this is because or how the bank is constructed, and what its made of. It is inspected on a very regular basis. Suffice to say that if it slipped and had to be rebuilt I would actually forsee that there would be an improvement and a higher linespeed but in place, rather than a more restrictive one.

    Thanks, as always.
     
  2. Sunset route

    Sunset route Member

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    The affected signalling certainly extends beyond bletchingly tunnel as it goes as far as and includes Nutfield station.

    Any working if it could be arranged with a shorter T3 possession limits, would have the be SLW to and from the point of obstruction (at location unknown) on the Down Tonbridge line from T1949 points (trailing) using GPL1316 to return to the correct line for the return working back to Redhill. But using a GPL signal with no AWS or TPWS that protects a conflicting junction whilst working degraded working for possibly two months or more is asking bent pointwork at the best and something more serious at worst.

    Working SLW over the up Tonbridge would offer protection of AWS and TPWS as you would be using the main aspect T502 as the protecting signal for the junction in the right direction (as it does now) but now the risks shifts to having to flag the trains into the SLW and this one involves manually operating (via IPS) up to six sets of points at a time at Redhill station between running normally on all other routes and this also has the potential to end up with bent pointwork due to prolonged degraded working.

    Mind you if they restored T1952 points and removed the buffer stops from the Up Tonbridge Siding and returned it back into a loop that would make any potential SLW so much easier. But alas I think that boat has sailed into the sea of less flexibility.
     
    Last edited: 27 Dec 2019
  3. JonathanH

    JonathanH Established Member

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    Traksy and Opentraintimes appear to show different layouts east of signal T1949 which may confuse armchair viewers of this problem.

    Traksy shows a trailing crossover west of Godstone.

    Opentraintimes shows a trailing crossover west of Nutfield controlled by GPL1336.

    In each case they don't show the other crossover but Google Maps shows both.

    Are these still available or is this covered by the loss of signalling?
     
  4. Sunset route

    Sunset route Member

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    Redhill post platform 0 alterations, these might help the armchair rule book, train planning and civil engineering gurus. I didn’t use GPLT1336 originally (which it is currently inside the T3 possession) to T502, but that does leave a better option and pushes the SLW away from Redhill station junctions. Then that would just leave the not so easy task of shortening a possession and whether the traction current can be restored to match such an idea or not. But this is early days and the powers that be have still to work out their long term plans.

    6FC59C56-0A0B-4DAF-AFDE-558F55ACC4E0.jpeg 1629FE7B-FB1D-4844-9F56-B8125837731D.jpeg 97EA7251-E67F-42C4-9329-19CED13DE5A7.jpeg 91B0DAF1-77D8-49D5-BCB3-BEA2C42185D7.jpeg C8528257-DE4E-4BE0-8789-1E2DE6D53F8A.jpeg D1015841-5373-4E1E-9C6D-6CD8C77062C0.jpeg
     
    Last edited: 28 Dec 2019
  5. 30907

    30907 Established Member

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    Sunset route's screenshot shows the clipped and padlocked pointwork at the Nutfield end of the Up Tonbridge Loop (much closer to Redhill than Nutfield).

    The layout at Godstone in reality involves a move through the sidings (and is unelectrified, and controlled by a ground frame/panel).
     
  6. Sunset route

    Sunset route Member

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    Godstone ground frames as well as the rest of the signalling in the area are in failed state due to the landslide.
     
  7. KingJ

    KingJ Member

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    Somewhat of a theoretical question of curiosity - with Network Rail having to access the site via adjacent land, what would happen if the landowner refused access?

    I presume there's some sort of arrangement between the landowner and Network Rail now in place for access, given it will mean that the landowner will be unable to use their field for farming. Is there anything enshrined in law or a pre-existing arrangement between railway neighbours that would permit Network Rail to 'force' access?

    Clearly in this instance Network Rail have had seemingly free access to the adjacent land on the pictures they've shared - but i'm curious what would happen if a landowner wasn't willing to cooperate. Could be quite a spanner in the works i'd imagine?
     
  8. DelW

    DelW Member

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    Network Rail may well have some statutory powers, but in their absence, access can be a major problem.
    In a case I know of some years ago, a mobile crane ran off the side of a country road and overturned in the adjacent field. The highway authority promptly imposed a permanent weight restriction on the road, meaning salvage equipment could not be brought in that way. It took a full year of negotiation between various parties including the farmer, crane's insurers, and salvage company, before a temporary road could be laid across the farmer's land to recover it.
     
  9. hwl

    hwl Established Member

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    Section 14 of the Railway regulation Act 1842:
     
  10. KingJ

    KingJ Member

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    Interesting reading - thank you both!
     
  11. infobleep

    infobleep Established Member

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    How does this differ to the Ewell West - Epsom landslip, where single line wotking is in use to Ewell West?
     
  12. Sunset route

    Sunset route Member

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    I’m not sure how much of the signalling at Epsom has been effected by the landslide or how the conductor rail circuit breaker sections or local hook switches in the Ewell East West and Epsom areas helped the operations staff in planning their SLW compared to what has happened to the Redhill to Tonbridge line, so couldn’t speculate even on an amateur level, other than their SLW is far less complex than what would be required in the Redhill area as it looks at the moment.

    Corrected to reflect the right Ewell station (must relearn my south western railway geography again).
     
    Last edited: 28 Dec 2019
  13. infobleep

    infobleep Established Member

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    Thanks for that. They don't need to worry about single line working to Epsom for now, as there aren't any trains running to there. Just buses and those started before the landslip, for other reasons. They are running trains to Ewell West at least.
     
  14. farleigh

    farleigh Member

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    Excellent informative input from TSR as always
     
  15. yorkie

    yorkie Forum Staff Staff Member Administrator

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  16. Minstral25

    Minstral25 Established Member

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    Has anyone heard any updates on how long this will be out for?

    Also Mods - I think a lot of discussion about replacement buses & services has been moved to the new thread in Fares advice and would be best discussed here. Is it possible to move back please
     
  17. Surreytraveller

    Surreytraveller Established Member

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    A couple of months was the latest I've heard
     
  18. Horizon22

    Horizon22 Member

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  19. Nicholas Lewis

    Nicholas Lewis Member

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  20. big all

    big all On Moderation

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    at the bottom off the twitter feed someone asks about shuttle to nutfield/godstone and southern have replied that it was looked into but impractical or words to that effect ??
     
  21. Surreytraveller

    Surreytraveller Established Member

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    Yes, then Network Rail have elaborated by explaining why a shuttle can be run at the Tonbridge end.
    Its as if GTR are treating the public like they're stupid and unable to understand anything by not explaining things.
     
  22. Nicholas Lewis

    Nicholas Lewis Member

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    Us armchair critics no its not straightforward buts its doable, if there is a will to do it, so they should explain why.

    Its takes a good 25-30 mins to get from Godstone in the morning rush hour so they could at least put on a couple of shuttles in the morning and evening peaks. The buses last week looked pretty empty during the day although this week maybe different
     
  23. Horizon22

    Horizon22 Member

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    You mean the Tonbridge commuters? They had an article full of rubbish and NR have already clearly stated a shuttle is not doable due to damage to the signalling equipment.

    However a more feasible option might be a Tonbridge - Redhill direct bus/coach via the A21 & M25 if there's demand. Perhaps just in peak hours but it would be slow going.
     
  24. JonathanH

    JonathanH Established Member

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    Wasn't the conclusion in this thread that it isn't possible to run a shuttle from Redhill to Godstone because there is no route that can be operated safely at Redhill for single line working and the points at Godstone involve running on non-electrified track through a goods siding? Also, the signalling is broken. You can't just magic up signalling to make a temporary shuttle work.

    I agree that it would be interesting for all concerned (and people watching from armchairs) to have some kind of official summary of why you can't run a shuttle to Godstone from Redhill but it probably won't change the situation.
     
  25. KingJ

    KingJ Member

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    Network Rail have released a new aerial picture of the landslip on Twitter. Eyeballing it compared to previous pictures, it looks like there hasn't been much in the way of further slippage, so that might be a good sign (although what might be under the surface or out of shot is another matter of course!).

    I think this is the thread you're referring to?

    There's been quite a big information push from Network Rail today, with leaflets being handed out at Tonbridge and Redhill that do a pretty good job of explaining what's happened and the challenges that they're facing when it comes to repairing it. They might not be the most detailed, but I think most passengers appreciate at least knowing some of the details rather than none at all. This is certainly an area that Network Rail South East seems to have stepped up on within the last few months.
     
  26. Nicholas Lewis

    Nicholas Lewis Member

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    For sure any working backing into Redhill needs to come via Up Line through T502 so it has TPWS protection approaching the junction. On the face of it this needs an unsignalled (time consuming for the signaller so unlikely a slot can be found) move out of Redhill bay so as to run wrong line (Up) to point of obstruction at Godstone. However, if, and its a big if as i believe they maybe oou, but if 1953pts are operational you could signal out normal line from Redhill over the Down to Godstone but then work back wrong line to GPS 1336 and cross back to the Up Line via 1953pts. This gives minimal special working requirements and all this signalling is controlled from Redhill Relay Room with any signalling further East (where its damaged) not necessary. As i say the fact they aren't running a shuttle probably means 1953 are oou.
     
  27. brad465

    brad465 Member

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    The Environment Agency's Water Situation Report for Kent & South London is being released very soon, where specific to the area of the landslip, the Eden (measured through Penshurst) saw 307% of its monthly mean flow in December, with the peak flow around the time of the landslip over 50m3/s (over 10x its monthly average). The Medway catchment area (of which the Eden is a tributary) saw 175% of the December rainfall, and 161% for the last 3 months, which altogether will have made the bank vulnerable to a landslip like that we've seen here.

    Staying on this route, I imagine the embankment down by Leigh has some extra reinforcement (or should do) to cope with the Leigh Flood Storage area when used, which was used during the same period, where the railway cuts right through the middle of it.
     
  28. Horizon22

    Horizon22 Member

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    BBC Surrey are reporting closure expected until the end of March.
     
  29. Nicholas Lewis

    Nicholas Lewis Member

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    Another update and video on Network Rail Kent and Sussex Twitter feed today from no less than the CEO of NR confirming end of March. Video shows they've accessed from the South side and have now cut through the embankment completely. On the NR website it says they need to deliver 40,000 tonnes of stone which will come by rail due to site remoteness.

    Good to see them using rail rather than lorries
     

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