Large Increase in "Avanti only" fare

[martinsh]

I travel regularly between Crewe and Stafford - currently once or twice per week (I'm a key worker). Was astonished today to discover that the Avanti only Crewe - Stafford Day Return fare had gone up from (I think) £9.60 to £12.30. I make that a 28% increase. It's now only 10p less than the "unrestricted" day return - so it's very likely sales of the Avanti ticket will completely vanish.

Have there been other similar increase for Avanti only fares ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I travel regularly between Crewe and Stafford - currently once or twice per week (I'm a key worker). Was astonished today to discover that the Avanti only Crewe - Stafford Day Return fare had gone up from (I think) £9.60 to £12.30. I make that a 28% increase. It's now only 10p less than the "unrestricted" day return - so it's very likely sales of the Avanti ticket will completely vanish.

Have there been other similar increase for Avanti only fares ?

If I recall correctly, most of them. 10p less (railway fares are priced in 10p increments, I'm sure it'd be 1p otherwise ) is enough to get it to come up as cheapest on the planners, so that'll do.

 

[jfollows]

Wilmslow to Manchester First Day Return was £15.10, gone up to £17.60, +16.6%. Money-grabbing cheeky so-and-sos. And, yes, the First Any Permitted Day Return priced by Northern is ..... £17.70. So that's what I'll be buying in future, which will mean that Avanti will probably get £4 to £5 as their split of the fare, as opposed to the full £15.10 they'd have received before.

The sole rationale for introducing this fare was that it was a significant saving on the Any Permitted fare. Standard is now £8.80 Avanti-only, £8.90 Any Permitted, and £7.30 Cheap Day Return with time restrictions Any Permitted. All in all, pretty pointless to buy the Avanti-only fare.

EDIT: Sorry, there's also a £7.20 Cheap Day Return Avanti-only. As said, a way of inducing purchase through on-line fare comparisons. Another rip-off mechanism for people who don't know better.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Off Peak Single fares on Avanti routes have come down though.
They are now something like 30% less than the return fare, rather than just £1 less.
Oddly, I see there are no Off Peak Singles Stafford-Crewe, only Anytime Day Singles, again with a 10p difference between WMR (Any Permitted) and Avanti.
At least we can't blame Virgin for "price gouging" any more.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The sole rationale for introducing this fare was that it was a significant saving on the Any Permitted fare.

No, it wasn't. The sole rationale of that kind of TOC-specific fare is to maximise that TOC's income from that journey. (There are some, like LNR-only fares on the WCML, that are in some ways more of a market-segmentation thing, but these ones definitely aren't).

If the higher fare achieves that better, as I suspect it might (as people just buy the cheaper one the planner suggests), they have it right.

 

[jfollows]

You're right, the sole rationale was and is to increase/maximise the TOC's income, well observed and I stand rightly corrected! I should have said that when the fare was introduced it was done as an eye-catching significant reduction on the Any Permitted fare, which for me was significant enough to warrant using it. Avanti has worked out that this level of reduction in fare is no longer required and that their fare will still get used as long as it's only slightly cheaper than the Any Permitted fare. Just not by me!

 

[jfollows]

By the way, thank you to the first poster for bringing this to our attention.

 

[Ianno87]

I travel regularly between Crewe and Stafford - currently once or twice per week (I'm a key worker). Was astonished today to discover that the Avanti only Crewe - Stafford Day Return fare had gone up from (I think) £9.60 to £12.30. I make that a 28% increase. It's now only 10p less than the "unrestricted" day return - so it's very likely sales of the Avanti ticket will completely vanish.

Have there been other similar increase for Avanti only fares ?

Rugby-Birmingham International, Coventry-Birmingham Stns, etc. all seem to be priced with the 10p "discount" for Avanti only.

 

[Paul Kelly]

By the way, thank you to the first poster for bringing this to our attention.

Although, it had already been touched on in this thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...om-may-fares-round.202975/page-4#post-4548727

 

[miami]

Can TOC only fares be excessed on board?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Can TOC only fares be excessed on board?

They can be excessed, but you can't (in any context at all) excess away the TOC restriction, it always remains even if you excess to a ticket that would ordinarily not have one.

One exception - some of the online sales sites (primarily those based on Trainline I think) do let you change a TOC specific Advance in a way that removes the restriction, because they do "refund and reissue" instead of excessing.

 

[Ianno87]

Can TOC only fares be excessed on board?

TOC only fares cannot be excessed *at all*, AIUI.

 

[miami]

So in the past you'd come out ahead even if you bought the wrong ticket 20% of the time (you'd buy 5*9.60 and have to buy a 12.40 once, total 57.60, rather than 5 lots of £12.40)

You'll now spend more if you get it wrong just 1% of the time? (buy 100x12.30 + 12.40 for £1242.40, rather than 100x12.40 for £1240

Bargain. No wonder people complain fares are "complicated"

 

[Bletchleyite]

TOC only fares cannot be excessed *at all*, AIUI.

They can be excessed, but any such excess does not remove the TOC restriction.

So if, for example, you excess an Avanti Only Advance to an Any Permitted Anytime it retains an Avanti Only restriction.

 

[Starmill]

You'll be pleased to hear that Avanti are whacking all of theirs up to a shade less than the interavailable tickets. This is often £0.10.



There are a handful of exceptions, such as Super Off Peak Return between London and Milton Keynes, where they are increasing to £0.10 less than the LNR Only fare (no interavailable fare exists), and Super Off Peak Single which is being cut to £0.10 less than the interavailable ticket (for a while, Avanti's dedicated ticket has been more expensive).



To put it another way, they will become rather expensive at best and absolutely appalling value for money at worst, which will probably see them dropping off after a while.

This was my previous analysis of this change, from the thread which Indigo2 helpfully linked to

They can be excessed, but any such excess does not remove the TOC restriction.

Indeed. They can and should be excessed for other purposes, such as changing time restrictions, including to Any Permitted fares. It's just that the original TOC restriction still applies.

Bargain. No wonder people complain fares are "complicated"

There's little doubt that Avanti's main aim was to increase prices here. They have never charged this much before for dedicated tickets. Notably many of the TransPennine Express Only tickets have also been withdrawn. The increase in average price therefore for trips like Preston to Lancaster and Penrith to Carlisle is huge. Probably just as well few are travelling.

Have there been other similar increase for Avanti only fares ?

If there are any Avanti West Coast only tickets left except for North Wales Coast that represent a saving that isn't trivial, I don't know about them.

 

[jfollows]

Avanti West Coast still offers season tickets with a slightly greater saving.

Wilmslow-Manchester Standard (no First) £34.60 base versus £38.70 Any Permitted, 10.6% less. So £1,384/year versus £1,548/year, some people might find the annual £164 saving valuable.
Crewe-Manchester Standard £53.00 base versus £66.80 Any Permitted, 20.7% less
Crewe-Manchester First £91.00 base versus no fare shown Any Permitted

There was once a Wilmslow-Manchester Avanti/Virgin First season ticket rate, but it's no longer shown

I looked only for a hypothetical need for me. I'm not sure I'd sacrifice frequency, intermediate break of journey opportunities and alternative routes for a season ticket saving myself.

 

[yorkie]

This thread is to discuss the large increase in Avanti Only fares.

For discussion on other topics, please use alternative threads; feel free to create one if there isn't a suitable thread already, where appropriate.

 

[miami]

If I recall rightly, both LM and Avanti have TOC only fares from Milton Keynes to London. Is there anything stopping LM introducing an LM only fare from Stafford to Crewe?

 

[Brissle Girl]

As all farebox income is currently (effectively) going to the government, the concept of maximising a TOC's income (at a loss to other TOC's and the overall farebox) with TOC specific fares is redundant. These fares were effectively gaming the system for each operator's advantage, rather than to offer cheaper fares to passengers. As I suspect the whole franchise system is now dead and buried, I can see the govt being quite keen to see them withdrawn, and it could even be promoted as simplifying the fare system!

 

[Bletchleyite]

If I recall rightly, both LM and Avanti have TOC only fares from Milton Keynes to London. Is there anything stopping LM introducing an LM only fare from Stafford to Crewe?

Yes. A TOC cannot introduce a TOC specific Standard class fare (it can for 1st I believe, as 1st fares are wholly commercial) for a flow for which it sets the interavailable fares, as is the case here.

MKC to Euston (and R1256) is a quirk which occurred because at privatisation the fare was set by InterCity West Coast, and so North London Railways/Silverlink (can't remember at what point it was) introduced, as they were allowed to do, a TOC specific fare. More recently, the fare setting moved over to Silverlink/LM (again I can't remember at what point that was, it may well have been when the accelerated timetable was introduced on VT and so the balance of who operated most trains tipped the other way), and so Silverlink/LM were allowed to keep the TOC specific fare they already had, but not set any more for that flow (also if they get rid they can't bring it back). However, at that point Virgin (now Avanti) got the option to set their own, and so did.

 

[voyagerdude220]

A little off topic, but still regarding Crewe to Stafford fares- I've noticed there aren't any First Class fares (other than Advance First) showing on the system, despite all(?) trains between the two offering First Class. Also the same applies to Crewe to Wolverhampton and v.v.

There certainly used to be.

Looking randomly at trains tomorrow:

19:37 Wolverhampton to Crewe arrive 20:07- Standard Off Peak single- £20.60
- First Advance Single- £76. Ouch.

Edit: A First Anytime single from Wolverhampton to Warrington is £65- £11 cheaper than the aforementioned Advance First single- I imagine there will be other cheaper alternatives as well.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Yes. A TOC cannot introduce a TOC specific Standard class fare (it can for 1st I believe, as 1st fares are wholly commercial) for a flow for which it sets the interavailable fares, as is the case here.

A little off topic, but still regarding Crewe to Stafford fares- I've noticed there aren't any First Class fares (other than Advance First) showing on the system, despite all(?) trains between the two offering First Class. Also the same applies to Crewe to Wolverhampton and v.v.

Is this maybe because the interavailable fares for these two particular flows (i.e. Crewe - Stafford and Crewe - Wolverhampton) are set by West Midlands Trains rather than Avanti, thus enabling Avanti to retain all 1st class ticket income?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is this maybe because the interavailable fares for these two particular flows (i.e. Crewe - Stafford and Crewe - Wolverhampton) are set by West Midlands Trains rather than Avanti, thus enabling Avanti to retain all 1st class ticket income?

There are First Class walk-up fares between Crewe and Stafford, but they are routed Avanti Only. Which is a bit bizarre, as LNR do offer First Class on that route. Probably just a mistake.

 

[voyagerdude220]

There are First Class walk-up fares between Crewe and Stafford, but they are routed Avanti Only. Which is a bit bizarre, as LNR do offer First Class on that route. Probably just a mistake.

Oops, you are certainly correct- there are indeed First Class Avanti only fares available between Crewe and Stafford.

I think there used to be First Class (route any permitted) fares between Crewe and Stafford.

There definitely used to be First Off Peak fares (route any permitted) between Crewe and Wolverhampton- I think a single used to be about £30 from memory.

 

[miami]

I can't see any first class fares from Crewe to Birmingham apart from an avanti weekend first upgrade! That's an hour long trip

For Crewe to Warrington there's a 1st class season ticket, but only via Manchester.

 

[Haywain]

I suspect something strange going on with the fares data. There are also some CrossCountry walk-up fares missing today for travel today.

 

[voyagerdude220]

I can't see any first class fares from Crewe to Birmingham apart from an avanti weekend first upgrade! That's an hour long trip

You're right. I can only find a First Class fare between Crewe and Coventry, looking at the stops which Crewe to London via Birmingham Avanti services make.

As it happens.... Crewe to Coventry First Anytime single is £95.90
Crewe to Rugby is £74. Yes I know a train via Birmingham would be much slower than one which goes via Tamworth, but I'm assuming it's a valid route, so you could undercut the Coventry fare by buying the Rugby ticket.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Someone has definitely been tweaking with things. Perhaps LNR are going to abolish 1st for the COVID period, so they've just removed all the 1st fares for their flows with no consideration of who else operates the routes?

The reason I suspect there's been tweaking is this:

Look up fares for any train journey in Britain

Full details of all British rail Single, Return & Season tickets and Travelcards. Built-in Season Ticket Calculator.

www.brfares.com

Note ticket type C19, and it's an Anytime ticket which must be purchased in advance but is otherwise valid at any time. I thought it was one of those Airport cheapo tickets which are like that, but it's not to International. I'm not quite sure what the point of this is (as non-train-specific tickets won't do anything to control loadings), but at £9 it is excellent value!

Edit: yes, it does appear LNR (WMT) have done away with all their priced 1st fares entirely. None for Bletchley-Euston either:

Look up fares for any train journey in Britain

Full details of all British rail Single, Return & Season tickets and Travelcards. Built-in Season Ticket Calculator.

www.brfares.com

And for MKC, only route Avanti ones left:

Look up fares for any train journey in Britain

Full details of all British rail Single, Return & Season tickets and Travelcards. Built-in Season Ticket Calculator.

www.brfares.com

Edit: Confirmation here that LNR have temporarily abolished First Class which would explain the fares disappearing (though as those routes have other TOCs it's somewhat cack-handed):

London Northwestern Railway

London Northwestern Railway. 7,405 likes · 271 talking about this. Connecting London and the North West with the West Midlands, at a price everyone can afford.

www.facebook.com

Some train operators are only allowing travel if you have reserved your seat beforehand to help with social distancing. This is a service that we cannot offer at the moment. For this reason, we have instead declassified our first-class accommodation until further notice, to help free up more space onboard our services to ensure travel is as safe as we can possibly make it. This option is open to anyone who holds a valid ticket.
Please remember, only travel if your journey is necessary. Thank you and take care. Latest travel advice >> lnr.uk/coronavirus

 

[185]

Just a brief question regarding the increase in those route Avanti Only fares... are any fares running north of Lancaster involved? Was also wondering what date these changed. Thanks