Largest cities without a metro system

[vicbury]

I wonder if some sort of light rail or metro system would work well in the Portsmouth / Southampton conurbation. The current rail service is pretty poor, it has to be said.

 

[W-on-Sea]

I'm not aware of the Runcorn busway or the East London Transit have problems with cars travelling down them.

The section of the East London Transit route that is not open to any other form of transport is so very small that it is hardly worth bothering with - it's a tiny stretch in Barking town centre, from the junction of Station Parade and Cambridge Road, along East Street and Ripple Road to the roundabout at the junction with Axe Street and St Paul's Road.
Google Maps says 0.4 miles, but I think this rounded up quite a bit!
https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?sadd...z4BAA&mra=dme&mrsp=4&sz=17&via=1,2,3&t=m&z=17

(In fact, having checked Google Street View, it's not even that far)

There's one other even shorter stretch to serve one stop on the Thames View Estate, visible here when it was under construction
https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=ba...kxl1G0XTepVgNAZjVdZZqA&cbp=12,107.16,,0,20.06


Everywhere else it runs on normal roads, sometimes (rarely) with bus lanes, but usually without.

The ELT really is nothing more than a bus route, nothing more at all!

 

[tbtc]

The problem I have with the Cambridge and Luton busways is that they have both destroyed previously mothballed/safeguarded rail routes

You could argue that a busway is better at safeguarding them than leaving the land derelict (with potential for other non-transport developments on it).

Mainline had a plan for guided busways in Sheffield (before Supertram was built, so early 1990s), which used the justification that it'd be possible to convert a busway to light rail - it was never built, but Edinburgh is proof that these things can be converted to a rail based scheme

There were construction problems, disputes and overruns on the system. Obviously it could have been better managed - these things are not unique to busways. I might as well say we shouldn't have trams after Edinburgh

I'm not aware of any massive delays/ overspend with the other busways in the UK (Ipswich, Leeds, Bradford etc), but the fact that the Cambridge one was badly implemented - by a contractor trying to cut corners - shouldn't count against them all (just like the over-running upgrades to several rail projects doesn't make me anti-rail).

The Cambridgeshire scheme has certainly beaten projected journey figures - which is generally used as justification for rail based schemes by enthusiasts!

 

[edwin_m]

I wonder if some sort of light rail or metro system would work well in the Portsmouth / Southampton conurbation. The current rail service is pretty poor, it has to be said.

There was a plan for light rail from Fareham to Gosport then underneath the harbour in an immersed tube, with further ideas for tram-train extensions beyond Fareham. It was cancelled by Darling at about the same time as Merseytram and the attempt to cancel Metrolink phase 3. The disused railway between Fareham and Gosport is now yet another busway, this one unguided.

 

[34D]

Presumably the reason Transdev & Arriva can't use the busways is that for some reason their management doesn't consider it worthwhile to fit guidewheels to their vehicles. As far as I'm aware FirstGroup don't have exclusive rights (though I'm happy to be corrected by anyone in the know).

Arriva used to use the bus way: Arriva castleford volvo B7/alx400 were guidewheel fitted and ran in the guideway for a couple of years.

Arriva Selby also fitted guidewheels to its B7/presidents, but apart from trials they were removed straight away due to a clearance issue in Selby.

Transdev have elected not to use the York Road or Scott Hall Road guideway (they have never run along Selby Road).

Leeds City Council have confirmed to the preservation group that have the sole surviving Leeds guideway first generation bus (L648PWR, a scania strider) that they may use the guideway subject to technical compliance.

 

[90019]

Don't mention the trolley buses, they make my blood boil and are a total waste of brass.

Could we swap?

now being part of the WET (White Elephant Tramway).

No no, it's part of the trambles.

 

[vicbury]

There was a plan for light rail from Fareham to Gosport then underneath the harbour in an immersed tube, with further ideas for tram-train extensions beyond Fareham. It was cancelled by Darling at about the same time as Merseytram and the attempt to cancel Metrolink phase 3. The disused railway between Fareham and Gosport is now yet another busway, this one unguided.

Nothing wrong with busways, they can achieve similar speeds and passenger numbers to tram systems. I genuinely don't see the point in guided busways though - they cost more, cause disruption if a bus breaks down, and are generally less flexible.

Are there realistically going to be any faster trains between Southampton and Portsmouth any time in the near future?

 

[radamfi]

There is usually no need for busways to be guided, but guiding can mean that you can fit a busway into less space as buses can pass each other very close. I'm not sure Luton or Cambridge would have worked in the same way without guiding. The Dutch have a lot of busways but none of them guided, although they did try magnetic guidance in Eindhoven.

 

[tbtc]

Nothing wrong with busways, they can achieve similar speeds and passenger numbers to tram systems. I genuinely don't see the point in guided busways though - they cost more, cause disruption if a bus breaks down, and are generally less flexible

I think the (as well as the "wow" aspect) its down to space saving and stopping cars getting in to them - e.g. you can have a bus lane, but a bus driver may not want to go very fast down it because there's always a danger of a queuing car in the adjacent lane cutting in.

I take your point though, I think there's a "style over substance" aspect to a guided busway.

 

[gordonthemoron]

has anyone been on the full length of the Luton busway?

 

[radamfi]

has anyone been on the full length of the Luton busway?

I wrote about a trip on the whole length a few days after it opened:

Took a trip to Luton yesterday to check out the Luton to Dunstable busway. Three companies operate on the busway, Arriva, Centrebus and Grant Palmer. I only used Arriva and Centrebus because Grant Palmer don't accept Plusbus, although Grant Palmer do accept the Hip Hop joint ticket for Luton and Dunstable.

I first used Arriva's 'A' service from the airport to Houghton Regis, operated by 12-reg Wright bodied Volvo single deckers. They have a lot of luggage space, comparable to an airport car park service, as the route is used as a feeder for the 757 service from the airport. From what I could see, the 757 is still well used, despite the requirement to change buses at Luton station and the existence of the National Express A1 service. This may be mainly because of Terravision branded tickets bought on the plane or at foreign airports which can only be used on Green Line. Most of the people I saw using the airport to Luton station section were using it as a connection to Green Line. There is a short section of bus only road between the airport and the station.

The busway is guided west of Luton. There is a steep gradient on immediate departure from the station and the route gives elevated views of the town centre at 50 mph. The ride quality on the Arriva buses is comparable to that on the Cambridgeshire busway.

The guided busway skirts the eastern edge of Dunstable town centre so most of the busway routes do a loop of the town centre and there is almost a full bus lane along the circuit, which seems to work well. This loop system means that part of the guided busway from Houghton Regis to Dunstable is only used by the half hourly Centrebus 'E' service from Luton to Toddington, which doesn't serve Dunstable town centre, so I took that bus from Luton to Houghton Regis and back. Not to Toddington as that is outside the Plusbus area. For completeness I also did the Centrebus 'B' route to the Downside Estate.

I was disappointed at the poor standard of vehicles used by Centrebus on the busway. I would have thought there would be a Quality Partnership on the busway requiring minimum vehicle standards. Centrebus are using Omnitowns transferred from Leicester which are about 6 years old, but they shake so bad that they feel a lot older and the interiors are worn out. What's more strange is that Centrebus use newer Optare Tempos on their other Luton services. Grant Palmer use 10 year old Scania Omnicities new to Metrobus. They seemed to be in OK shape.

The registrations used on the Centrebus services, for some reason, have been recycled from scrapped 1992 Olympians new to Yorkshire Coastliner (e.g K2 YCL, K4 YCL). What's the point in that?

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think the (as well as the "wow" aspect) its down to space saving and stopping cars getting in to them - e.g. you can have a bus lane, but a bus driver may not want to go very fast down it because there's always a danger of a queuing car in the adjacent lane cutting in.

British bus lanes tend to be too narrow, meaning that cars encroach too close the white line. Also they don't usually extend to the junction. Dutch bus lanes are wide enough and almost always go to the junction. They often have their own signals and go on their own, designed similar to tram signals in the UK.

 

[fsmr]

A good point, well made. Though buses will never encourage modal shift to the level trains or trams will. The problem I have with the Cambridge and Luton busways is that they have both destroyed previously mothballed/safeguarded rail routes. Though as you say the Edinburgh fiasco hasn't made it any easier for the likes of Leeds and Liverpool to try to revive their stalled tramway projects- hence the 'consolation prizes' of the FTR and proposed trolleybuses.

When was the last time a major transport project was actually completed on or under budget? HS1, possibly?

Well said my thoughts , I feel the Cambridge to ECML at Huntingdon and possibly beyond was an opportunity destroyed. With container traffic already struggling for paths between March and PB, it would have been an ideal route for some of the Birmingham Stanstead expresses (albiet need some compulsary purchase in St ives ) and speed up the journey time ro Cambridge to boot, not to mention an ideal diversion for the ECML in case of OLE down or posessions south of Huntingon but all destroyed now.

 

[starrymarkb]

There was a plan for light rail from Fareham to Gosport then underneath the harbour in an immersed tube, with further ideas for tram-train extensions beyond Fareham. It was cancelled by Darling at about the same time as Merseytram and the attempt to cancel Metrolink phase 3. The disused railway between Fareham and Gosport is now yet another busway, this one unguided.

The Navy also objected to the Tube, insisting it was at such a depth that it was both unaffordable and would be too steep.

 

[Train Pilchard]

How come so many cities in Western Europe have modern efficient large tram networks and most in the UK have none or very small ones?

 

[radamfi]

The UK had many tramway systems but they were all removed, except Blackpool. Other European countries kept some of them and upgraded them.

I wouldn't be surprised if the major transport groups lobby against the building of comprehensive tram systems as it would kill their deregulated bus networks. Whereas they make even more money out of busways, apart from the Leeds Trolleybus scheme which appears to be a loophole around deregulation.

 

[AndyHudds]

The UK had many tramway systems but they were all removed, except Blackpool. Other European countries kept some of them and upgraded them.

I wouldn't be surprised if the major transport groups lobby against the building of comprehensive tram systems as it would kill their deregulated bus networks. Whereas they make even more money out of busways, apart from the Leeds Trolleybus scheme which appears to be a loophole around deregulation.

....which is a total waste of money!!!

 

[fowler9]

The UK had many tramway systems but they were all removed, except Blackpool. Other European countries kept some of them and upgraded them.

I wouldn't be surprised if the major transport groups lobby against the building of comprehensive tram systems as it would kill their deregulated bus networks. Whereas they make even more money out of busways, apart from the Leeds Trolleybus scheme which appears to be a loophole around deregulation.

I have to admit that I never quite got trolleybuses but I do like them. I think you hit the nail on the head though. If a few people are making a fortune they will do everything in their power to stop something that would prevent that. Even if it might improve the service.

 

[Deerfold]

....which is a total waste of money!!!

Yes, so you said...

Don't mention the trolley buses, they make my blood boil and are a total waste of brass.