Largest Town with No Sunday Bus Services

[TheGrandWazoo]

Skipton to Harrogate would be a very useful link.
[\QUOTE]
The X59 between the towns along the A59 failed as a commercial service once NYCC withdrew its subsidy. Prior to that their had been various services via Otley and Ikley - the last being the Harrogate & District X50, originally started as Harrogate to York it was extended in the opposite direction and the timetable ended up with more Skiptons than Yorks. It was withdrawn to release vehicles for an enhanced 36 between Leeds and Ripon. Slightly surprised Connexions have not extended their X52 from Ilkley but then given their owners obsession with getting gone over Transdev if they did it would be to Keighley rather than Skipton

IIRC, both the services from Harrogate to York and Skipton were NYCC supported and the combination of subsidy withdrawal and the pitiful ENCTS remuneration saw them off.

 

[Andyh82]

In the case of West Yorkshire, I think service provision is poorer than in the 90's, certainly between towns in a lot of cases.

Back then there were services that are no longer;

Bradford-Skipton
Bradford-Ilkley
Bradford-Worth Valley villages
Bradford-Sheffield via Barnsley
Halifax-Keighley
Leeds-Sheffield via Barnsley
Leeds-Holmfirth
Leeds-Doncaster
Leeds-Bradford via Yeadon

A lot of those were either just split in two with the advantage of network simplicity. The 662 used to be the 662/663/664/665/666/667/668/669 or something along those lines.

Or replaced by higher frequency rail services

Or were basically just very odd long services, the 484 Leeds to Holmfirth used to take 2 hours, and still basically exists in two parts.

 

[Deerfold]

In the 80's there used to be an express bus that ran via the M1 between Leeds and Wakefield. I can't remember the route number.

In terms of the old 655/755 Leeds-Bradford via Yeadon buses. I used them a lot as a kid, travelling normally from right outside a relative's house on the main road (Keighley Road) in Frizinghall to the Emmott Arms in Rawdon to my grandad's. Sometimes I also used it back to Shipley station after visiting my grandad, although so generally went into Leeds to get the train back to Keighley, then bus to Colne, by way of McDonald's at the St John's Centre.

I used to use them a lot, but usually between Bradford and Frizinghall.

Between Bradford and Guiseley back then, there was a bus on them combined routes every 30 mins alone. There were also the Harrogate and Ilkley buses. Now there's one an hour with a few Otley buses at sporadic times.

Indeed, I remember every hour having a 655, a 755, 2 of 650/651/652, up to 2 653/4 and a handful of 649s.

The 653 to Otley currently runs every hour, but will be withdrawn at the next service change.

 

[Deerfold]

The X59 between the towns along the A59 failed as a commercial service once NYCC withdrew its subsidy. Prior to that their had been various services via Otley and Ikley - the last being the Harrogate & District X50, originally started as Harrogate to York it was extended in the opposite direction and the timetable ended up with more Skiptons than Yorks. It was withdrawn to release vehicles for an enhanced 36 between Leeds and Ripon. Slightly surprised Connexions have not extended their X52 from Ilkley but then given their owners obsession with getting gone over Transdev if they did it would be to Keighley rather than Skipton

I wonder if the X59 would have been any more successful if Transdev's Daytripper ticket had been available?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Thanks to easyJet, Ryanair, Eurostar, Stena Line, OUIBUS, Flixbus and Eurolines, the Netherlands is readily accessible. This thread is all about how poor and often non-existent Sunday services are in England, so if there's an alternative, why not use them?

You fly or coach to the Netherlands so you can travel on a bus on a Sunday?

You could just travel to Brighton; there's even a bus on a Sunday from Crawley

 

[radamfi]

You fly or coach to the Netherlands so you can travel on a bus on a Sunday?

You could just travel to Brighton; there's even a bus on a Sunday from Crawley

Brighton may be nearer but the Netherlands is near enough. I go there regularly as a matter of routine so it doesn't feel like I am going out of my way.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

I think I did once posed the question if there were more buses operating in London than the rest of the country put together and was quoted that it wasn't quite so - On a Sunday I imagine it would be quite substantially so.

 

[Deerfold]

Thanks to easyJet, Ryanair, Eurostar, Stena Line, OUIBUS, Flixbus and Eurolines, the Netherlands is readily accessible. This thread is all about how poor and often non-existent Sunday services are in England, so if there's an alternative, why not use them?

It's great that there are good Sunday services in the Netherlands. Unfortunately they're not going to the places I want to go to.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Brighton may be nearer but the Netherlands is near enough. I go there regularly as a matter of routine so it doesn't feel like I am going out of my way.

I'm pretty certain it's closer - Brighton's about 20 miles away, NL about 250 miles away. Only you could go to London, get on a coach and travel across the North Sea and say it not like you're going out of your way The question of alternatives is not whether you can fly to another country to travel on a bus but whether there are public transport alternatives for the journey you need to make in the UK.

The reality is that in many areas, Sunday services have been introduced in the good days and now the tide has gone out (in terms of funding), there are some that are commercially viable (reflecting the increased retail activity) and are being retained but many are not and are being lost.

If I look at my home town in North Yorkshire (!), what has happened there isn't untypical of the changes since de-reg.

• Pre 1986 - one main route plus one vehicle that did an irregular mix of the two town services and a semi urban route
• Post dereg - main route lost its Sunday morning journeys, the semi urban route disappeared but the town routes became hourly (under tender)
• Late 1990s - RBC funding brought some ill judged tendered services (waste of money) but the main route regained its Sunday morning service
• Age of austerity - NYCC cuts see town service axed, main route retains its Sunday enhancement commercially and has been extended to replace some of the semi urban service lost years earlier

 

[radamfi]

When I posted a while back that buses in Britain are largely "irrelevant", there were some robust responses even though the market share is so low. But just consider how low the market share buses have on Sundays, especially outside London!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

When I posted a while back that buses in Britain are largely "irrelevant", there were some robust responses even though the market share is so low. But just consider how low the market share buses have on Sundays, especially outside London!

Yes, and the responses were rightly so. You don't seem to grasp the basic mechanics of why people travel.

Monday to Friday is dominated (even now) by the need to travel to work, to college/university, and to school. These major flows form the bedrock of the travel patterns and shape service provision. For Saturday and Sunday, there is a much decreased requirement for work (and virtually nothing for education) but then again, these are the two main leisure and retail days.

However, to say that bus services outside London on a Sunday are moribund just isn't true. My local services in Bath may have reduced headways compared to Mon-Sat but they are largely commercial and are increasingly popular with a number receiving enhanced headways. I can point to many instances in larger towns and cities.

The issue is a gradual pulling apart. The strong corridors are getting stronger as Sunday trading has increased and so companies are taking a commercial punt, reflecting how the market has change. There are some tendered services that are increasingly able to justify a commercial daytime Sunday service and operators may take the commercial risk on these even if marginal.

However, those that will never be commercial are being lost as local authorities have to reign in their budgets.

 

[Deerfold]

IIRC, both the services from Harrogate to York and Skipton were NYCC supported and the combination of subsidy withdrawal and the pitiful ENCTS remuneration saw them off.

The express service from Harrogate to York started commercially every 2 hours. It was a success and became hourly. However with reducing payments for ENTCS cards, Harrogate and District found they lost money on a full load of passholders and withdrew the service. Briefly a subsidised service replaced it running a handful of journeys a day.

 

[fgwrich]

Despite receiving some of the newest vehicles in Hampshire, Andover has for some time had no Sunday service and I believe a very limited evening service too.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The express service from Harrogate to York started commercially every 2 hours. It was a success and became hourly. However with reducing payments for ENTCS cards, Harrogate and District found they lost money on a full load of passholders and withdrew the service. Briefly a subsidised service replaced it running a handful of journeys a day.

I thought the York service was supported but thanks for clarifying for me

I did think it was ENCTS remuneration that sounded the death knell; I suspect that if you asked the grey army to pay thruppence towards it, loadings would've declined anyway.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Despite receiving some of the newest vehicles in Hampshire, Andover has for some time had no Sunday service and I believe a very limited evening service too.

Sorry to correct you but the Activ8 service to Tidworth and Salisbury is hourly on a Sunday and is still quite useful for military personnel heading back to the various bases after the weekend.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Of course many of the routes you list saw massive improvements in the parallel rail routes. Of course some people, living some distance from a station, would prefer the bus, but many passengers simply transferred.

Although not on a Sunday, at least until very recently, with Bradford-Keighley-Skipton and Bradford-Guiseley-Ilkley only running every two hours.

I am surprised that Shipley-Guiseley/Yeadon/Menston cannot sustain a bus service.

 

[radamfi]

However, to say that bus services outside London on a Sunday are moribund just isn't true. My local services in Bath may have reduced headways compared to Mon-Sat but they are largely commercial and are increasingly popular with a number receiving enhanced headways. I can point to many instances in larger towns and cities.

Yes, there has not been a total cessation of Sunday bus service in every town outside London. Supporters of the bus industry have long quoted places that are better than average, such as Oxford, Brighton, Edinburgh etc. and when talking about Sunday service it is possible to cite similar "highlights". But it is far more important to talk about the complete or near complete withdrawal of Sunday service in vast areas of the country. We are not talking about tiny villages. We are talking about substantial towns that people have heard of! For example, Shrewsbury has no service whatsoever and Andover is supposed to be grateful that it still has one route left! That is clearly totally unacceptable. And surely the modal share of buses for Sunday travel must now be tiny.

 

[freetoview33]

My local bus service on a Sunday, (Number 4, In Bristol) is hourly, but the bus is much more rammed on Sundays when compared to other days.

 

[Grimsby town]

Louth (population around 17,000) in Lincolnshire does not have a single bus on a Sunday as far as I can tell. The nearest rail station is Market Rasen which only has 3 services each way in the summer months only on a Sunday.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Yes, there has not been a total cessation of Sunday bus service in every town outside London. Supporters of the bus industry have long quoted places that are better than average, such as Oxford, Brighton, Edinburgh etc. and when talking about Sunday service it is possible to cite similar "highlights". But it is far more important to talk about the complete or near complete withdrawal of Sunday service in vast areas of the country. We are not talking about tiny villages. We are talking about substantial towns that people have heard of! For example, Shrewsbury has no service whatsoever and Andover is supposed to be grateful that it still has one route left! That is clearly totally unacceptable. And surely the modal share of buses for Sunday travel must now be tiny.

Indeed there are the oft quoted bright spots. However, you live in a filter bubble; venture out into the UK and you'd see that things are not as black and white as you'd believe.

Take my home county town - Northallerton. Historically, it had a limited service to Darlington that was withdrawn in 1985. Then nothing for a number of years, then RBC funding came along and suddenly service appeared but now back to nothing. However, in some areas that historically couldn't sustain services, there are commercial operations on a Sunday. Somerset didn't have one in 1992 - there are several now.

In less lucrative areas, many services are not and never were sustainable commercially and that if the money isn't put in (as we apparently can't afford it), then the service can't be run.

I might ask you the likelihood that any money will be put into improving bus services? Well, despite the opinion polls apparently narrowing, I think you can forget Corbyn for PM and instead a continued cost down, hollowing out of the state as the Maybot insists "it's necessary in showing strong and stable leadership".

 

[radamfi]

Take my home county town - Northallerton. Historically, it had a limited service to Darlington that was withdrawn in 1985. Then nothing for a number of years, then RBC funding came along and suddenly service appeared but now back to nothing. However, in some areas that historically couldn't sustain services, there are commercial operations on a Sunday. Somerset didn't have one in 1992 - there are several now.

But are Sunday services in Somerset or North Yorkshire better now or in 1992? We shouldn't really care whether the routes are commercial or not. We only know because of the artificial segregation created as a result of the way buses were deregulated.

In less lucrative areas, many services are not and never were sustainable commercially and that if the money isn't put in (as we apparently can't afford it), then the service can't be run.

But how can you explain to the lay person why Bath can have a vaguely reasonable Sunday service yet Shrewsbury has nothing? It might be obvious to people like us who have followed the industry for decades, but to a normal person it seems illogical to have such a disparity in service between two middle-sized historic towns.

I might ask you the likelihood that any money will be put into improving bus services?

We've discussed this before and I have already said that I have written off the UK, especially when it comes to local transport.

 

[Deerfold]

Although not on a Sunday, at least until very recently, with Bradford-Keighley-Skipton and Bradford-Guiseley-Ilkley only running every two hours.

Along with the Bradford - Leeds service on the alternate hours there is a connection at Shipley for Bradford - Skipton. Bradford-Keighley supports a half-hourly commercial bus service with Keighley to Skipton being hourly (not late evenings).

There used to be a subsidised service Bradford - Guiseley - Otley - Ilkley which outlasted the daytime service by some years - I used to catch it regularly between Otley and Bradford Interchange after a few drinks. It was usually very quiet, changed number a couple of times and was finally withdrawn as the 963 (with only 2 remaining journeys along the full route) in 2013. Several years earlier the Sunday daytime service was withdrawn, leaving it running all evenings only.

http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co....ver_decision_to_axe_Ilkley_Otley_bus_service/

The current 963 in Otley is unrelated.

 

[edwin_m]

But how can you explain to the lay person why Bath can have a vaguely reasonable Sunday service yet Shrewsbury has nothing? It might be obvious to people like us who have followed the industry for decades, but to a normal person it seems illogical to have such a disparity in service between two middle-sized historic towns.

Because Bath has lots of students and Shrewsbury doesn't?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

But are Sunday services in Somerset or North Yorkshire better now or in 1992? We shouldn't really care whether the routes are commercial or not. We only know because of the artificial segregation created as a result of the way buses were deregulated.



But how can you explain to the lay person why Bath can have a vaguely reasonable Sunday service yet Shrewsbury has nothing? It might be obvious to people like us who have followed the industry for decades, but to a normal person it seems illogical to have such a disparity in service between two middle-sized historic towns.



We've discussed this before and I have already said that I have written off the UK, especially when it comes to local transport.

Point A - bus services in Somerset are better now that they were in 1992; Taunton bus station gets more departures in an hour than it did all day then. Bus services in North Yorkshire are more mixed - some services are much improved (e.g. the 93 consisted of four Scarborough to Whitby jrnys with one extended to Boro - now it's hourly throughout, or the 36 Ripon to Leeds which was simply hourly). Conversely, some have fallen by the wayside like Richmond town services or Whitby locals to Castle Park or the various services to Stokesley though, in truth, they were placement journeys to the Tees depot there.

The best illustration is Selby - it had 3 x 2 hourly services to Goole, Leeds and York IIRC. The first two no longer operate, the York service runs half hourly. That is a picture replicated across the country; don't go to Holland. Have a look for yourself!

NOTE: I am a bit obscure on the Harrogate/Knaresborough area so can't comment on what that was like 25 years ago.

Point B - are you the said lay person? If so, let me illustrate. Shrewsbury is an island in a very thinly populated county. Bath is part of a much more densely populated area (BaNES) and when taken as the WoECA area, has a much greater catchment population. Then you have demographics - Bath has two large universities at peripheral locations that attract a lot of non car using students. A number are year round being post grads or overseas students. This is augmented by large numbers of tourists on a year round basis though the peak dovetails nicely with the drop in students. Shrewsbury doesn't have these.

Even the smaller towns near to both places reflect the differences. Take Market Drayton and Oswestry - combined they aren't the same population as Trowbridge.

Bath and Shrewsbury may have similar populations in the city limits but the composition and the surrounding areas means you're comparing blue cheese and moonrock

Point C - none so blind as those who do not wish to see.

 

[SCH117X]

IIRC, both the services from Harrogate to York and Skipton were NYCC supported and the combination of subsidy withdrawal and the pitiful ENCTS remuneration saw them off.

That, in terms of York, was the X54 which was operated by Transdev commercially with vehicles branded as Yorkshirexpress, who then reduced the frequency and Harrogate Coach Travel took up the displaced workings. When Transdev withdrew on 15/12/2009 HCT carried on for a while longer. The X50 I referred to was earlier and ended operation in Nov 1999; it had originally been branded as Ebor Link when just a Harrogate-York operation.

The X59 between Harrogate and Skipton was funded originally by the Rural Bus Grant along with, IMO, a rather poorly thought out 60 between Otley and Pateley Bridge. The two services had an interchange mid route but as existing services linked Harrogate with Pateley and Skipton with Otley the only users, bar any picked up from the countryside/villages would have been anyone wanting to go between Pateley and Skipton. Needless to say the 60 had a short life. It probably got more custom on a sunny Saturday when it ran to the top of Nidderdale beyond Pateley - the bus would then run empty to Harrogate for a driver change and then empty back to the top of Nidderdale!

 

[radamfi]

Point C - none so blind as those who do not wish to see.

Are you implying that the withdrawal of all or nearly all Sunday (or otherwise) bus services in many parts of the country is acceptable, desirable, or just something that we should just put up with because other aspects of life in the UK are OK?

 

[SCH117X]

NOTE: I am a bit obscure on the Harrogate/Knaresborough area so can't comment on what that was like 25 years ago.

Harrogate & District withdrew all commercially Sunday services in Nov 1992; NYCC funded their continuaion until the new year when Stephensons of Easingwold were awarded them. At first glance their were two main local operators; H&D and Harrogate Independent Travel although both had been under the same ownership since 26 April 1989; the amalgamation into a single H&D fleet started in Nov 1993

 

[RT4038]

Are you implying that the withdrawal of all or nearly all Sunday (or otherwise) bus services in many parts of the country is acceptable, desirable, or just something that we should just put up with because other aspects of life in the UK are OK?

There was a time when most bus routes in the country had Sunday services, even fairly deep rural ones. But from the late 50s TV and private vehicles took people away from riding and the services got less and less. Staff shortages, and staff resistance to working on Sundays made the situation worse [why run these empty buses around when you can rearrange rosters to run weekday services more reliably?].
I certainly recall riding a Sunday bus (which ran every 2 hours I think) from Northallerton to Middlesbrough on a Sunday afternoon in the mid 70s. I being the operative word for most of the journey. Virtually of the services around Northallerton/Leyburn/Richmond area had Sunday services then, with very few passengers.
Would there be many takers on those services today?

 

[overthewater]

Sunday service should forces on main routes to allow people to get to work and shops. Any thing else well its clear there is no demand.

 

[radamfi]

Would there be many takers on those services today?

Village buses on Sunday have long gone, but we're now talking about bread and butter urban services in sizable towns which would typically have a weekday frequency of every 15 minutes not running at all on Sundays.