Last call for the Charing Cross to Gillingham via Woolwich semi fasts

[NorthKent1989]

This Sunday this, nifty, eccentric, well used service will be no more (for the foreseeable future at least anyway) I have fond memories of using this, back in the days of slam door trains, I recall lowering the window after it left Woolwich Arsenal, trawling through Woolwich Dockyard and speeding past Charlton, and through Blackheath tunnel doing 60mph at least, then the fast run from Lewisham to London Bridge.

For a few years, this service was diverted via Greenwich in the 2000s which was also a good service, in the days of Connex and NSE this was a mainline service, I never knew why this became a metro service, considering that from end to end it was 1hr20 mins

What are your memories of this service? Who else will miss this service?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Recall it being described in slam door days, as Kent Links "premium service" - Headcode 63 ?

 

[Mikey C]

Ah yes, I always tried to catch this service off peak from Dartford, the nearest thing to an express service. I'm not sure I would describe it as a mainline service, as it had the usual stock other than the one service a day(?) which went to the Kent Coast and hence was served by the 4 Cep!

These days I only use it between Charing Cross and Charlton, so the changes don't affect me...

 

[Class465fan]

This Sunday this, nifty, eccentric, well used service will be no more (for the foreseeable future at least anyway) I have fond memories of using this, back in the days of slam door trains, I recall lowering the window after it left Woolwich Arsenal, trawling through Woolwich Dockyard and speeding past Charlton, and through Blackheath tunnel doing 60mph at least, then the fast run from Lewisham to London Bridge.

For a few years, this service was diverted via Greenwich in the 2000s which was also a good service, in the days of Connex and NSE this was a mainline service, I never knew why this became a metro service, considering that from end to end it was 1hr20 mins

What are your memories of this service? Who else will miss this service?

I don't remember the trains doing 60mph through Blackheath tunnel? When did they alter the speed limit in Blackheath tunnel?

 

[Class465fan]

I will miss the trains making a fast run from Abbey wood to Dartford, then from Dartford to Gravesend.

 

[NorthKent1989]

It'll be better once the Sidcup line gets the fasts, non stop New Eltham to London Bridge,

 

[NorthKent1989]

I don't remember the trains doing 60mph through Blackheath tunnel? When did they alter the speed limit in Blackheath tunnel?

On rare occasions it did, but this stopped by the early 00s, and since 2009 its crawled through.

I will miss the trains making a fast run from Abbey wood to Dartford, then from Dartford to Gravesend.

Indeed, the fast section between Abbey Wood & Dartford has slowed down, but beyond Dartford is still a fast run.

 

[ComUtoR]

I don't remember the trains doing 60mph through Blackheath tunnel? When did they alter the speed limit in Blackheath tunnel?

On the down, it is still 20 in and 60 out. It used to be 60 in 20 out on the up. You could hit the tunnel hard and brake and easily hit the 20.

 

[Swanny200]

Recall it being described in slam door days, as Kent Links "premium service" - Headcode 63 ?

Sure the semi-fast from Gillingham was 62 although could be wrong, used to get it from Gillingham to Gravesend in slam door times

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Sure the semi-fast from Gillingham was 62 although could be wrong, used to get it from Gillingham to Gravesend in slam door times

Yes , it would be 62 (odds Cannon Street , evens Charing Cross !) - slaps head.

 

[Swanny200]

I never knew about the odds and evens thing, you learn something new every day. I remember once going all the way to Charing Cross on one of the first public Networker runs and crawling past Woolwich Dockyard having never realised there was a station there seeing as I had always only gone as far as Gravesend before speeding up through all stops to Lewisham

 

[Mintona]

It has a fond memory for me in that it was the first service I ever drove. I’m sure it was the 1454 Gillingham - Charing X, and I had 465014 + another back in 2012. Good times.

 

[blakey1152]

Recall it being described in slam door days, as Kent Links "premium service" - Headcode 63 ?

I think 63 was the Cannon Street trains.. I remember the 62 went to Charing Cross. I remember that nice run from Woolwich Arsenal to Blackheath before they made it stop at Charlton

 

[Class465fan]

Currently on my last semi fast trip back to abbey wood. Will miss this fast journey once it gets replaced.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Recall it being described in slam door days, as Kent Links "premium service" - Headcode 63 ?

Thank you for the info

Currently on my last semi fast trip back to abbey wood. Will miss this fast journey once it gets replaced.

I honestly don't see why they couldn't keep this service but from Gravesend, calling at all stops to Dartford then same stopping pattern? It's too much to expect Medway to just have 2tph to a crossrail connection and a all stops service Medway is too far out for such a service

 

[Bromley boy]

I honestly don't see why they couldn't keep this service but from Gravesend, calling at all stops to Dartford then same stopping pattern? It's too much to expect Medway to just have 2tph to a crossrail connection and a all stops service Medway is too far out for such a service

Dartford - Vics are going to be extended to Gravesend, semi fast between Dartford - Gravesend, as I recall.

 

[Bromley boy]

It has a fond memory for me in that it was the first service I ever drove. I’m sure it was the 1454 Gillingham - Charing X, and I had 465014 + another back in 2012. Good times.

I bet you miss driving networkers up and down the scum .

 

[NorthKent1989]

By some happy coincidence I will heading to Medway today So I shall travel from Charing Cross to use this service for one last time, I hope the drivers will go extra fast today as it'll be the last time this will run until possibly 2022

 

[Mikey C]

By some happy coincidence I will heading to Medway today So I shall travel from Charing Cross to use this service for one last time, I hope the drivers will go extra fast today as it'll be the last time this will run until possibly 2022

I must have missed it, but why is the service being removed, and why might it return in 2022?

 

[ComUtoR]

I must have missed it, but why is the service being removed, and why might it return in 2022?

The service is being enhanced and not everyone is pleased.

It was semi fast Charing Cross to Gillingham under SE and will now be a 700 unit and under GTR. It will start from Rainham and run up to Luton. It has also increased the stopping pattern and will call at additional stations. It is a better link between Medway, Central and North and also links Luton Airport.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

In the best of days, the service ran to Maidstone West. The decision to change it to Gillingham I can understand.

The switch to Greenwich was pre-6tph on the Greenwich line but had to be switched back to Lewisham for the conflicting moves it caused at Spa Road.

It was always a well-used service and the replacement, as well as the general North Kent timetable now, is nowhere near good enough to my mind. A really poor Thameslink map which will exacerbate problems on the network when it should have just gone via Elephant and Longfield and restored a half-hourly stopping service down towards Medway on the Chatham Main.

 

[NorthKent1989]

The service is being enhanced and not everyone is pleased.

It was semi fast Charing Cross to Gillingham under SE and will now be a 700 unit and under GTR. It will start from Rainham and run up to Luton. It has also increased the stopping pattern and will call at additional stations. It is a better link between Medway, Central and North and also links Luton Airport.

Its not being enhanced, the frequency will be the same 2tph but with loads more needless stops, increasing journey times, the new Thameslink service is so slow, that the stoppers from Dartford and the loops will be faster!

Also we already have a link to North London & Luton, its the HS1 to St. Pancras and to honest no one from Medway will need Luton since Gatwick & Heathrow are much nearer and easier to get to.

No one in Medway wants this service.

 

[NorthKent1989]

In the best of days, the service ran to Maidstone West. The decision to change it to Gillingham I can understand.

The switch to Greenwich was pre-6tph on the Greenwich line but had to be switched back to Lewisham for the conflicting moves it caused at Spa Road.

It was always a well-used service and the replacement, as well as the general North Kent timetable now, is nowhere near good enough to my mind. A really poor Thameslink map which will exacerbate problems on the network when it should have just gone via Elephant and Longfield and restored a half-hourly stopping service down towards Medway on the Chatham Main.

The Maidstone West service could very well return in 2022! Maidstone needs better services to London

 

[Mikey C]

The service is being enhanced and not everyone is pleased.

It was semi fast Charing Cross to Gillingham under SE and will now be a 700 unit and under GTR. It will start from Rainham and run up to Luton. It has also increased the stopping pattern and will call at additional stations. It is a better link between Medway, Central and North and also links Luton Airport.

It's the mentions elsewhere in the thread about 2022 though, what's so special about then as I wasn't aware of any significant upgrades happening on the route in the next 4 years

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Its not being enhanced, the frequency will be the same 2tph but with loads more needless stops, increasing journey times, the new Thameslink service is so slow, that the stoppers from Dartford and the loops will be faster!

Also we already have a link to North London & Luton, its the HS1 to St. Pancras and to honest no one from Medway will need Luton since Gatwick & Heathrow are much nearer and easier to get to.

No one in Medway wants this service.

For the service to be enhanced, it would need to be better. A slower train with a worse experience when you could have just changed at London Bridge anyway for a fast Luton Airport as opposed to a relatively slow one... Wow.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

The Maidstone West service could very well return in 2022! Maidstone needs better services to London

Only if the franchisee opts to push the 2tph peak High Speed onto the Kent Coast Route (eg 4tph via Rochester) in which case they have to provide a semi-fast from Maidstone West to London via Abbey Wood.

 

[NorthKent1989]

It's the mentions elsewhere in the thread about 2022 though, what's so special about then as I wasn't aware of any significant upgrades happening on the route in the next 4 years

There are no upgrades that I know of either its just the new franchisee may have to provide a semi fast service from Maidstone to Cannon Street via Abbey Wood, if HS1 goes 4tph via Rochester, there is a thread somewhere regarding this.

Only if the franchisee opts to push the 2tph peak High Speed onto the Kent Coast Route (eg 4tph via Rochester) in which case they have to provide a semi-fast from Maidstone West to London via Abbey Wood.

I think Kent County council are going to raise this in their next meeting, what I find more interesting is if this were to go ahead will this mean some stations on the Woolwich line be upgraded to 10tph? There doesn't seem to be anything to suggest that Thameslink wont be withdrawn in that time (I hope it will!) so will this mean that Charlton, Woolwich A, Plumstead and Abbey Wood be getting 10tph?

 

[4-SUB 4732]

There are no upgrades that I know of either its just the new franchisee may have to provide a semi fast service from Maidstone to Cannon Street via Abbey Wood, if HS1 goes 4tph via Rochester, there is a thread somewhere regarding this.



I think Kent County council are going to raise this in their next meeting, what I find more interesting is if this were to go ahead will this mean some stations on the Woolwich line be upgraded to 10tph? There doesn't seem to be anything to suggest that Thameslink wont be withdrawn in that time (I hope it will!) so will this mean that Charlton, Woolwich A, Plumstead and Abbey Wood be getting 10tph?

No; per the ITT TSR, it’s just a case of using the existing 6tph (+2tph Thameslink) and extending 2 of them each hour down to Maidstone West. Those services could be all stations from Cannon Street via Greenwich or Lewisham; they could be fast, they could be semi-fast. They have to hash a timetable together using all of the relevant bits of the TSR so they stay compliant.

 

[NorthKent1989]

No; per the ITT TSR, it’s just a case of using the existing 6tph (+2tph Thameslink) and extending 2 of them each hour down to Maidstone West. Those services could be all stations from Cannon Street via Greenwich or Lewisham; they could be fast, they could be semi-fast. They have to hash a timetable together using all of the relevant bits of the TSR so they stay compliant.

Thanks for clearing that up.

I doubt that such a service will have all stations but it may have slightly more stations than the current semi fast service ie stops at New Cross & Plumstead or all stations via Greenwich to Charlton,
Woolwich Dockyard has bizarrely been mooted as a potential stop as well.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Thanks for clearing that up.

I doubt that such a service will have all stations but it may have slightly more stations than the current semi fast service ie stops at New Cross & Plumstead or all stations via Greenwich to Charlton,
Woolwich Dockyard has bizarrely been mooted as a potential stop as well.

All I say of course is that in theory the franchisee could, whilst meeting the TSR which has no specified maximum journey time, offer a service Cannon / Bridge / New Cross / St John’s / Lewisham / Blackheath / Charlton / Dockyard / Arsenal / Plumstead / Abbey Wood / Belvedere / Erith / Slade Green / Dartford / Stone / Greenhithe / Swanscombe / Northfleet / Gravesend / Higham / Strood / Snodland / Maidstone West or Cannon / Bridge / Deptford / Greenwich / Maze Hill / Westcombe Park / Charlton / Dockyard / Arsenal / Plumstead / Abbey Wood / Belvedere / Erith / Slade Green / Dartford / Stone / Greenhithe / Swanscombe / Northfleet / Gravesend / Higham / Strood / Snodland / Maidstone West and be perfectly within the rules. Rubbish I agree but...