Last minute or on the spot upgrade

[Holly]

I apologise if this question has been asked before, I couldn't find it.
And it's a bit sensitive/delicate I don't want to embarrass anyone.

To cut a long story short, I'm booked on a weekday evening, last long distance train from London, first class, and now I discover, by coincidence, that a dear friend is travelling on the same train. I'm sure she will have a standard class ticket.
Of course I will sit with her but I wondered whether it was worth my finding an excuse to talk with the ticket collector about paying for an on-the-spot upgrade for her.

So my question is - will I typically get an unhelpful response to offer only a full fare last minute ticket in first at a huge cost (I won't belittle my friend by buying that), or am I likely to be offered an upgrade to first at close to what the difference in cost might have been if she had booked first in advance?

Obviously there are no guarantees, and it is a space-available situation, but assuming the first is relatively empty what would the typical policy (in practice) be?

I think you can understand I want to get a feel for the likelihood of the outcome before making specific enquiries. If I could pretend I was booked in standard and avoid the whole situation I would, but I fear it is too late for that. I know in the old days of BR you could do an upgrade. Many many years ago my boss did this for me!

To me, it is common sense, if first is largely empty and I'm offering to put money in the hands of the railway you would think they would be keen to offer a reasonable deal. But common sense is in short supply on today's railways, we all know that.

 

[soil]

What journey is this for?

 

[Holly]

What journey is this for?

Grand Central Bradford, evening. But I'm also sure a broad answer would be of interest, to me and others.

 

[bb21]

It would depend on what ticket she holds.

The official policy is that you can pay the difference between First and Standard fares to upgrade if she holds a walk-on flexible fare ticket. If she has an Advance ticket *, provided that she travels on her reserved service, it is possible to pay the difference between what she paid for the ticket and the First Class walk-on fare.

Grand Central sell tickets onboard with no penalty so you won't get nasty surprises.

Officially it is not possible to upgrade to a First Advance fare on the day of travel so you are replying very much on discretion if that is what you expect.

Edit:

* I know GC website state that Advance tickets cannot be upgraded to First Class, however I don't know how legitimate this claim is. I remain suspicious that they can go against industry guidelines.

 

[soil]

Different rules apply on weekends and on different TOCs.

On Grand Central you can upgrade a Standard off-peak or anytime fare to First Class for £15. But not on weekends

Advance fares cannot be upgraded on board.

If she's not on an Advance, she could excess her ticket.

See http://railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=70374

If holding a Grand Central Only off-peak or anytime ticket, the upgrade costs would therefore be, according to the current ticket held:

Off-Peak Single: £27.80
Anytime Single: £42.30
Off-Peak Return: £56.60
Anytime Return: £71

If her current ticket is an Advance, she would need to swap (£10 admin fee) for a new First Class Advance prior to travel, or an Off-Peak First Class Single at £79.30

 

[bb21]

On Grand Central you can upgrade a Standard off-peak or anytime fare to First Class for £15. But not on weekends

This is Weekend First, so available at weekends but not available on weekdays.

If holding a Grand Central Only off-peak or anytime ticket, the upgrade costs would therefore be, according to the current ticket held:

Off-Peak Single: £27.80
Anytime Single: £42.30
Off-Peak Return: £56.60
Anytime Return: £71

The ticket the passenger is excessed to is not dependent on the original ticket held, but what ticket is most appropriate for the service the passenger is using.

No West Riding service requires an Anytime ticket, so the excess would be to (a combination of) Off-Peak fare(s). For example, if a GRAND CTRL ONLY Anytime Single (£78.20) is held, the excess would be to the Off-Peak First Single (£79.30), hence £1.10, although I cannot see why someone would be holding an Anytime Single as an Off-Peak Single (£51.50) is valid on all Grand Central West Riding services.

 

[tannedfrog]

I don't really get why the matter is sensitive.

I wonder if you are allowed to sit in the wrong seat in Standard, if you have a First Advance with seat reservation? And whether you would be able to visit a ticket office and change the seat reservation to one in Standard, even with a First Advance ticket?

In any case, if you sit in Standard, and the guard asks why, s/he might be happy to offer a cheap or free upgrade for your friend if you explain the reason.

 

[Flamingo]

With FGW if you wish to upgrade to 1st Class, take a seat in 1st class, and somebody will be along shortly to charge you the difference between what you have paid and the relevant 1st class ticket (or Weekend First).

If anybody is upgrading an Advance ticket (which is always a Single), however, be aware of two things (if the Weekend First is not in place):
- The difference in price is between whatever you paid and the Anytime single, not whatever was quoted for the Advanced First on the same train
- It is an Anytime single that you need to upgrade to, regardless of the time of train, and YP railcard discounts are not available on the upgrade.

I had a guy last week who expected to pay £40-50 for an upgrade on his Advance ticket (as that was what he said he paid upgrading an off-peak return one way). - it was actually going to be over £150, as he had a dirt-cheap Advance single.

 

[Paul Kelly]

I don't really get why the matter is sensitive.

Depends on how close you are to the friend I suppose. I can imagine a situation where it would be embarassing that they only had a standard class ticket compared to your first class, because they might feel that they were denying you your seat in first class.

 

[island]

With FGW if you wish to upgrade to 1st Class, take a seat in 1st class, and somebody will be along shortly to charge you the difference between what you have paid and the relevant 1st class ticket (or Weekend First).

What if an RPI comes along and issues a PF for double the FOS?

 

[sheff1]

Depends on how close you are to the friend I suppose. I can imagine a situation where it would be embarassing that they only had a standard class ticket compared to your first class, because they might feel that they were denying you your seat in first class.

Yes, that is one possibility. There are many other scenarios where either or both parties could become embarrassed.

If the OP has a non-Advance ticket there should be no problems with them sitting in Standard. I have encountered this many times where work colleagues have different classes of ticket (due to their grade) and the senior person has joined the other(s) in Standard. With an Advance ticket you are, of course, supposed to sit in your allocated seat.

Holly - I suggest you talk to the guard before boarding and discuss options, explaining that you do not wish to discuss them in front of your friend to avoid any embarrassment. What the outcome will be will very much depend on who the guard is on the day - even if the situation were seemingly black and white, different people take different lines.

 

[Flamingo]

What if an RPI comes along and issues a PF for double the FOS?

Won't happen. An RPI on a HST ROTFL, that's a good one, etc.

 

[Deerfold]

I wonder if you are allowed to sit in the wrong seat in Standard, if you have a First Advance with seat reservation? And whether you would be able to visit a ticket office and change the seat reservation to one in Standard, even with a First Advance ticket?

I had no trouble with sitting in Standard on a First Advance between London and Nottingham recently though the guard did invite me to sit in 1st class.

As the train was delayed my wife managed to catch the same train as me. I did get a free drink by briefly visiting 1st and showing my ticket which I'd only paid £17 for. My wife's standard ticket was the return portion of a rather longer journey which she was breaking at Nottingham which had cost over £200 and would have been very expensive to upgrade.

Not sure if you'd manage to get STD reservations - probably not, especially on an advance.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If the OP has a non-Advance ticket there should be no problems with them sitting in Standard. I have encountered this many times where work colleagues have different classes of ticket (due to their grade) and the senior person has joined the other(s) in Standard. With an Advance ticket you are, of course, supposed to sit in your allocated seat.

Whilst that's the official line, in over 3 years of doing 2 advance journeys a week between Yorkshire and London and then various other journeys I've never seen a guard demand someone move into their allocated seat (and I was often in a different seat to be able to sit with my wife who tended to have tickets bought by her work some months after I got mine).

 

[Holly]

... Holly - I suggest you talk to the guard before boarding and discuss options, explaining that you do not wish to discuss them in front of your friend to avoid any embarrassment. What the outcome will be will very much depend on who the guard is on the day - even if the situation were seemingly black and white, different people take different lines.

Thank you, yes.
I do understand everyone will be different, sometimes you just can't do the right thing no matter how hard you try.

I think I may just try buying an advance first single for her (without telling her) and try to get to the guard in private, hopefully if a decent person he or she will play along with a "complimentary (but not really)" upgrade.
And if it doesn't work out the loss is not huge. As my father would have said, "There are worse things have happened at sea, lass".

The tragedy is that fares are not simple and flat rate as they once were. But the good times are gone forever thanks to the professional economists, no changing that.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I had no trouble with sitting in Standard on a First Advance between London and Nottingham recently though the guard did invite me to sit in 1st class. ...

Yes. Even if the train were rammed any reasonable guard would surely arrange a seat swap with someone in standard who would prefer to sit in first. (Possible material for a Brian Rix farce?)
= = = = =
Ah, problem solved. My friend had not yet bought her ticket so she agreed to let me buy it for her so I could make sure we get seat reservations together. I don't even know whether there are seat reservations on that train, it hardly matters.

And thank you everyone who responded, it is all useful information for possible future situations.

 

[sheff1]

Thank you, yes.
Ah, problem solved. My friend had not yet bought her ticket so she agreed to let me buy it for her so I could make sure we get seat reservationst ogether.

Excellent. Enjoy your journey.