Last of the droplights

[yorksrob]

Thankfully the railways are run by sensible people who view the preservation of life and the prevention of accidents to be a desirable outcome. Even when in the opinion of some enthusiasts it's possible to pin all the blame on the victim and say that they should have known better.

Accidents happen because people make mistakes, they make bad decisions or don't think things through properly, or maybe they're just unlucky. No-one's journey home should be ending in their death though, the fact that someone makes a mistake or a bad choice does not in the slightest mean that it's ok to blame them and do nothing about it.

I hate assigning blame to human error. Barring suicide (which is tragic and all efforts should be made to prevent it also) people don't end up dead or seriously injured on the railway by choice. If they or someone else made a mistake or a misunderstanding that causes an accident then we need to find out why or how this came to happen, what other factors influenced how they made a decision. In the case of droplight windows on trains there's usually only a small warning sign which doesn't really communicate the nature of the danger. Similarly passengers rarely ride trains equipped with them and don't fully understand the risks. Do they know there could be little/no clearance from branches and less than 30 centimeters from static obstacles?

No good reason for doing away with them? People being killed is a good enough reason in my book.

I'm sorry that you hate assigning blame to human error. Windows are there to provide ventilation and in some cases, open the door. If you decide to use them otherwise, that's your own risk.

As someone with a lot of experience in rail safety, I think that's a shockingly ignorant opinion. If you took it to it's logical extreme, we wouldn't bother doing anything after accidents, and the railway would still routinely kill a few dozen people at a time in horrific accidents.

Unprotected droplights are completely unnecessary on a modern railway, and shouldn't be kept just because a few enthusiasts like to stick their heads out of them.

I look forward to the day someone bans traffic, in case I decide to walk out in front of it.

 

[yorksrob]

There’s always, unfortunately, the problem that as something diminishes and becomes a rarity people are no longer familiar with it. Like slam doors for example, back in the day most people would have been well aware of how to use them safely. Recently I went in a preserved railway with a friend who’s not really railway minded, and he tried the handle of a slam door whilst the train was moving (fortunately without incident), and subsequently expressed shock and surprise at the discovery they could actually be opened on the move. He couldn’t believe that all trains were once like that.

Having said that, I agree with your sentiments. A tiny number of incidents whose basic cause was injudicious passenger behaviour shouldn’t result in a knee-jerk reaction.

I agree that there is perhaps more of an issue as things become less familiar. However, in the case of droplights, I believe that warning people is enough.

 

[ComUtoR]

I look forward to the day someone bans traffic, in case I decide to walk out in front of it.

Plenty of traffic free zones around the country. Cars have been slowly removed from city centers for many years now. You are also not allowed to walk down a Motorway.

People are separated from cars; where possible.

 

[yorksrob]

Plenty of traffic free zones around the country. Cars have been slowly removed from city centers for many years now. You are also not allowed to walk down a Motorway.

People are separated from cars; where possible.

Not enough for comfort, in my opinion. I'm amazed at the risks I'm forced to take in my day to day life as a pedestrian without anyone batting an eyelid, yet the country goes loopy over an opening train window.

This country has its priorities wrong.

 

[bramling]

I agree that there is perhaps more of an issue as things become less familiar. However, in the case of droplights, I believe that warning people is enough.

Not disagreeing; indeed the response to the Balham incident seemed to hinge more around the warning labels and clearance. I get fed up with everything being planned around the most stupid people.

 

[071]

I think at the moment we have something like:
- EMR HSTs, due to last until some point this year?
- GA Mk3 sets, also being phased out this year/at the moment?
- Fife loco-hauled with mk2s, expected to last most of the year?
- Still some mk3 sets in Wales?
- A few 'classic' Scotrail HSTs but the plan is for these to be phased out and replaced with sliding door ones ASAP
- The Night Riviera - a candidate for the last surviving service, perhaps for a few years yet?

I didn't know any Mk.2s were still in service. What routes are these used on? I feel a field trip coming on.

 

[Mag_seven]

I didn't know any Mk.2s were still in service. What routes are these used on? I feel a field trip coming on.

As it says, the Fife Circle - here are the current diagrams:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/frequently-requested-diagrams.170615/#post-4100683

ScotRail Class 68

Valid until Friday 15th May 2020

Numbers in round brackets are diagram numbers

Monday to Friday

2K01 EDB 0633 - GLT 0733 (1)
2G13 EDB 1711 GLT 1818 (2)
2L69 EDB 1719- CDD 1823 (1)

2K18 CDD 0735 - EDB 0835 (2)
2G02 GLT 0747 - EDB 0901 (1)
2K14 GLT 1822- EDB 1931 (2)

Saturday

No service

Sunday

No service

EDB - Edinburgh
GLT - Glenrothes With Thornton
CDD - Cardenden

Red - via Dunfermline
Blue - via Kirkcaldy

 

[071]

As it says, the Fife Circle - here are the current diagrams:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/frequently-requested-diagrams.170615/#post-4100683

Thank you!

 

[Journeyman]

I'm sorry that you hate assigning blame to human error. Windows are there to provide ventilation and in some cases, open the door. If you decide to use them otherwise, that's your own risk.

Nope, that's not good enough. In the 21st century, there is absolutely no need for a window that can result in decapitation through misuse.

I look forward to the day someone bans traffic, in case I decide to walk out in front of it.

You clearly don't understand the principle of ALARP. There will always be accidents, yes, but it's a matter of reducing them to the lowest practical level. If you look at road safety statistics you'll see that the number of deaths and serious injuries on UK roads has declined sharply, because determined measures have been taken to improve safety. Likewise on the railways.

 

[43 302]

I didn't know any Mk.2s were still in service. What routes are these used on? I feel a field trip coming on.

There were also Mk2s on the Rhymney valley line hauled by 37s until a couple of days ago.

 

[yorksrob]

Nope, that's not good enough. In the 21st century, there is absolutely no need for a window that can result in decapitation through misuse.



You clearly don't understand the principle of ALARP. There will always be accidents, yes, but it's a matter of reducing them to the lowest practical level. If you look at road safety statistics you'll see that the number of deaths and serious injuries on UK roads has declined sharply, because determined measures have been taken to improve safety. Likewise on the railways.

If we really were reducing accidents to the lowest possible level, we'd be banning opening windows and sun roofs on cars as well. I can't imagine that going down well.

 

[43 302]

I'm sorry, but (as much as I love them) droplights do not belong on a modern railway. Your argument for having them is a bit like saying 'why do we need a fence on that balcony, if you fall off that's your fault'. Now maybe you and I would keep a safe distance from the ledge, but what about a child, or a drunk. There is no reason to keep droplights when they can remove them and there is no risk to passengers.

I wonder why they couldn't lock the windows out of use and install an inside handle, seeing as the doors are locked now.

 

[BRX]

Can we maybe have a separate "should droplights be banned" thread? I think this argument has been done many times before. I was hoping this thread could be a way for those of us who enjoy (with an understanding of the risks) droplights to track where it's still possible to do so, during what may be the last year they are used on regular services in any number.

 

[Journeyman]

Can we maybe have a separate "should droplights be banned" thread? I think this argument has been done many times before. I was hoping this thread could be a way for those of us who enjoy (with an understanding of the risks) droplights to track where it's still possible to do so, during what may be the last year they are used on regular services in any number.

Oh, I understand the risks alright, which is why I won't stick my head out of a fast-moving train.

Those that do don't understand the risks at all.

 

[BRX]

In case it it's not obvious to everyone, it's possible to enjoy standing by a droplight without sticking your head out anywhere whilst the train is in motion.

 

[yorksrob]

Frankly I'm quite tired of the modern railway in many respects.

In case it it's not obvious to everyone, it's possible to enjoy standing by a droplight without sticking your head out anywhere whilst the train is in motion.

Spot on.

The only time I stick anything out of the window is to open the door.

 

[Journeyman]

In case it it's not obvious to everyone, it's possible to enjoy standing by a droplight without sticking your head out anywhere whilst the train is in motion.

That's the problem - it clearly isn't obvious to everyone, hence periodic decapitations.

 

[GlitterUnicorn]

Frankly I'm quite tired of the modern railway in many respects.


Spot on.

The only time I stick anything out of the window is to open the door.

Then what's the problem with bars?

 

[GlitterUnicorn]

I look forward to the day someone bans traffic, in case I decide to walk out in front of it.

ALARP - As low as reasonably possible.

There's no safe use for a droplight window that bars would prevent. Banning people from crossing the road is self evidently unreasonable.

 

[theironroad]

The lad had the knowledge and he took the risk.

I don't understand why I'm expected to agree with this infantilisation of the population regarding droplights when we've existed perfectly happily as a society with droplights for one hundred and fifty years.

There is no good reason for doing away with them, and you won't find me saying otherwise.

There is no good reason for doing away with them, and you won't find me saying otherwise.

Whether you find it difficult to understand the risk is up to you.

The lad who who was a enthusiast and also a rail industry employee decided to stick his head out of the window and you reckon he 'knew the risk,' so carried on regardless. There's no evidence he intended to commit suicide, so clearly he didn't understand the risk and he was a enthusiast and rail employee.

I don't know whether you work for the railway or not or whether you ever read toc railway Twitter feeds, but if you do, then you'll be aware that the vast majority of rail passengers don't have that sort of risk awareness.

As someone who has cautiously stuck his head out of droplight windows for many years, I realise that the time has come for them to removed in all passenger compartments.

 

[popeter45]

regardless of all this debate about how safe they are there is also one very simple reason TOC's dont want them anymore
new automatic doors give far greater control about dwell time so lead to a far more reliable service and as there is no need for a external handle on these there is no need for a droplight and a single static window pane is much simpler to maintain than a manual sliding window mechanism
droplights where on there way out by the mid 80's to late 90's and that not due to hatred of rail fans, its just economics and Efficiency

 

[theironroad]

regardless of all this debate about how safe they are there is also one very simple reason TOC's dont want them anymore
new automatic doors give far greater control about dwell time so lead to a far more reliable service and as there is no need for a external handle on these there is no need for a droplight and a single static window pane is much simpler to maintain than a manual sliding window mechanism
droplights where on there way out by the mid 80's to late 90's and that not due to hatred of rail fans, its just economics and Efficiency

I don't think anyone is saying that newly built trains should have drop light windows , though power operated doors certainly have their reliability issues. This is about to manage the risk of stock that still runs around with droplight windows that has to be managed as clearly it does pose a risk.

 

[yorksrob]

ALARP - As low as reasonably possible.

There's no safe use for a droplight window that bars would prevent. Banning people from crossing the road is self evidently unreasonable.

I have no issue with bars on the windows as such.

There is no good reason for doing away with them, and you won't find me saying otherwise.

Whether you find it difficult to understand the risk is up to you.

The lad who who was a enthusiast and also a rail industry employee decided to stick his head out of the window and you reckon he 'knew the risk,' so carried on regardless. There's no evidence he intended to commit suicide, so clearly he didn't understand the risk and he was a enthusiast and rail employee.

I don't know whether you work for the railway or not or whether you ever read toc railway Twitter feeds, but if you do, then you'll be aware that the vast majority of rail passengers don't have that sort of risk awareness.

As someone who has cautiously stuck his head out of droplight windows for many years, I realise that the time has come for them to removed in all passenger compartments.

Fortunately I don't work for the railway, so am free to disagree with all the 21st century flim-flam.

 

[Journeyman]

Fortunately I don't work for the railway, so am free to disagree with all the 21st century flim-flam.

Therefore, I politely suggest you shut up about things you don't understand.

The longest period without a fatal train crash in the industry's history (getting on for 13 years and counting) is in the 21st century, and is down to the hard work and dedication of thousands of people.

I don't pine after the days when the railway routinely killed several dozen people a year in horrific accidents.

We used to send kids down mines for twelve hours a day. Thankfully things move on.

 

[Mogz]

Perhaps the answer, which would be cheaper than installing power doors on stock which isn’t going to be around for long anyway, is to glue the droplights shut and install internal door handles.

Given they’re centrally locked there’s no need to rely on outside handles for safety.

 

[yorksrob]

Therefore, I politely suggest you shut up about things you don't understand.

The longest period without a fatal train crash in the industry's history (getting on for 13 years and counting) is in the 21st century, and is down to the hard work and dedication of thousands of people.

I don't pine after the days when the railway routinely killed several dozen people a year in horrific accidents.

We used to send kids down mines for twelve hours a day. Thankfully things move on.

This is a public forum and I am perfectly entitled to express an opinion on a perfectly safe form of transport (i.e trains with droplights), therefore I politely suggest that you jog on.

 

[Journeyman]

This is a public forum and I am perfectly entitled to express an opinion on a perfectly safe form of transport (i.e trains with droplights), therefore I politely suggest that you jog on.

A form of transport that can decapitate people insufficiently knowledgeable and/or momentarily inattentive is not in any size, shape or form "perfectly safe".

 

[43 302]

Perhaps the answer, which would be cheaper than installing power doors on stock which isn’t going to be around for long anyway, is to glue the droplights shut and install internal door handles.

Given they’re centrally locked there’s no need to rely on outside handles for safety.

This is what I was thinking too. Would be much cheaper than power doors. There's not much point doing it now but why wasn't this done 20 years ago or so?

 

[43096]

A form of transport that can decapitate people insufficiently knowledgeable and/or momentarily inattentive is not in any size, shape or form "perfectly safe".

Nothing is perfectly safe if we’re being honest.

 

[43096]

This is what I was thinking too. Would be much cheaper than power doors. There's not much point doing it now but why wasn't this done 20 years ago or so?

Because the additional door locking system was a secondary system - originally known as “Secondary Door Locking” - fitting interior handles would introduce additional risks.