Late connection on Advance ticket at Manchester

[crehld]

One interpretation of the rules is that you would have to wait until 0930 for the delayed 0900, rather than being allowed onto the 0915. This interpretation is where the 60 minute rule comes in to play - if the 0900 wasn't expected to leave until 1005 then you would be allowed on the 0915.

I don't see the logic behind this interpretation. The next available train following the delay is the 0915. Nor indeed am I any wiser as to where this 60 minute rule has come from. There is nothing I can see in the ticket's terms and conditions which specifies I must wait for at least 60 minutes before catching the next available train. They just say "the next available train(s)".

I do not know if this rule is actually written down anywhere.

You won't find it written, it's a custom and practice thing, or internal Control guideline.

Just as well I can rely on the written rules in this scenario then, which quite clearly permit me to take the next available train.

 

[najaB]

I don't see the logic behind this interpretation.

The logic is that 'your' train is still running, and your ticket is tied to (and usually printed on the ticket) 'Booked train only'.

 

[Flamingo]

Suck it and see. Let us know how it goes.

 

[crehld]

The logic is that 'your' train is still running, and your ticket is tied to (and usually printed on the ticket) 'Booked train only'.

Yes, but it's delayed. In which case the advance tickets terms and conditions permit me to take the next available train(s) to complete my journey. This provision in the Ts&Cs is quite clear.

By taking the next available train I am not gaining any advantage (as I will still be arriving later than initially planned, so still delayed overall) and I am adhering to the terms and conditions which both I and the train company agreed to at the point of purchase.
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Suck it and see. Let us know how it goes.

Have had no problems in such instances before save once, where the Euston barrier line refused to let me on board. A quick trip to the ticket office to get the ticket endorsed (which I was under no obligation to do, but there was enough time so hell why not) solved this minor issue swiftly and ensure I was able to continue my journey without further let or hindrance.

 

[najaB]

Yes, but it's delayed. In which case the advance tickets terms and conditions permit me to take the next available train(s) to complete my journey. This provision in the Ts&Cs is quite clear.

I understand where you are coming from, and personally agree with you.

However, the section of the T&C's you've quoted doesn't specify exactly what is meant by "if delays occur while travelling" - one interpretation is that it is only meant to apply to delays that occur while on board which cause you to miss a connection. So in the situation where you turn up at the station on time, and find that your train is late, you have to wait for that train.

 

[crehld]

I understand where you are coming from, and personally agree with you.

However, the section of the T&C's you've quoted doesn't specify exactly what is meant by "if delays occur while travelling" - one interpretation is that it is only meant to apply to delays that occur while on board which cause you to miss a connection. So in the situation where you turn up at the station on time, and find that your train is late, you have to wait for that train.

My journey starts at the station as far as I'm concerned.

And here's a conundrum... By the logic above it is impossible to be delayed by a booked train that has been cancelled, because one has never had the opportunity to board said cancelled train. Effectively I'll be waiting for my booked train indefinitely.

 

[najaB]

And here's a conundrum... By the logic above it is impossible to be delayed by a booked train that has been cancelled, because one has never had the opportunity to board said cancelled train. Effectively I'll be waiting for my booked train indefinitely.

If the train is cancelled, then the later condition:

'If the train you purchased a ticket for is cancelled or is delayed and you still decide to travel, special arrangements will be made to accommodate you on another train (although a seat cannot be guaranteed).'

would come into play.

 

[SephenWorceste]

When I was delayed on an Advance and was grudgingly allowed on a later (but earlier) train I was already travelling. I had come from Elstree and was changing in Euston. Effectively I had a Connections and Virgin West Coast Advance. I was surprised the Train Manager was so grumpy but I did not know about the hour rule.

Best wishes, Stephen.

 

[yorkie]

... I did not know about the hour rule. ....

I don't think this is a rule or condition, but simply a policy held by some Train Companies.

 

[crehld]

When I was delayed on an Advance and was grudgingly allowed on a later (but earlier) train I was already travelling. I had come from Elstree and was changing in Euston. Effectively I had a Connections and Virgin West Coast Advance. I was surprised the Train Manager was so grumpy but I did not know about the hour rule.

Best wishes, Stephen.

Yes, before this thread I was unaware of it too. I'm guessing this is down to the fact it does not actually exist. The advance Ts&Cs are very clear in my opinion. You make take the next available train. There is no mention (that I can see - happy to be corrected upon production of evidence) of the 60 minute rule anywhere in the ticket Ts&Cs or in the NRCoC, which are agreed by both the train company and the passenger when purchasing the ticket. Thus anyone trying to enforce this non existent rule on the ground is either talking nonsense or have been misinformed by their management, and are in breach of the aforementioned ticket conditions.
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If the train is cancelled, then the later condition:

would come into play.

Ah,missed that one
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I don't think this is a rule or condition, but simply a policy held by some Train Companies.

And of course individual TOC policies cannot override the provisions of the NRCoC or the terms and conditions of tickets held.

 

[yorkie]

And of course individual TOC policies cannot override the provisions of the NRCoC or the terms and conditions of tickets held.

I completely agree.

(Though, for completeness, I'll point out for the benefit of anyone who isn't sure, they can of course give us more favourable terms; indeed many TOCs do in a variety of cases)

 

[SephenWorceste]

In reality I expect very few train managers to have a problem. Those that did would probably grumble but let you travel anyway.

Best wishes, Stephen.

PS. My next trip London to Wimbledon is a first anytime any permitted route return from Worcester to Wimbledon . It will be a treat to catch any train, any route, no splitting and no faffing with Oyster.

 

[Starmill]

Yeah, you can come back and tell us how worthwhile that £250 for one day's travel was!

 

[yorkie]

In reality I expect very few train managers to have a problem. Those that did would probably grumble but let you travel anyway.

My advice remains the same: simply ask staff (on the station initially if applicable, then moving to on train if possible) for advice, follow it if it sounds reasonable. If it doesn't, find other staff if possible and ask them.

Anyway I think this thread has run its course, until of course we hear back from the original poster (OP), table38.

PS. My next trip London to Wimbledon is a first anytime any permitted route return from Worcester to Wimbledon . It will be a treat to catch any train, any route, no splitting and no faffing with Oyster.

I can't afford to do journeys like that, but free to post any more on that here

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Where a service on a high frequency line is delayed, then it becomes quite probable that the passenger will be on the platform in time to take an earlier service than the delayed train (and thereby, if it runs to time, arrive at the destination earler than the service booked on the Advance ticket).

I have personal experience of this situation on many occasions, such as the early morning stopper to London which leaves Newcastle a few minutes ahead of the Flying Scotsman. When 'the flyer' is delayed in the north, the stopper gets to London sooner. In other situations, the service which is earlier thatn the booked service is timetabled to reach the destination before the booked service.

In these situations, it has not been a quiet non-and-a-wink to DaveNewcastle to allow me to travel ahead of my booked service. It has been a platform announcement, designed to assist all passengers in reaching their destination on time, regardless of actual train booked or type of ticket held.

 

[sheff1]

In these situations, it has not been a quiet non-and-a-wink to DaveNewcastle to allow me to travel ahead of my booked service. It has been a platform announcement, designed to assist all passengers in reaching their destination on time, regardless of actual train booked or type of ticket held.

I have often heard announcements along the lines of 'the HH:MM train is delayed, passengers for xxxx should travel on the HH:MM train'. Such announcements have never contained any reference to ticket types and I have always assumed this means authorisation has been given to all, including holders of Advance tickets, to use the alternative service. Is my assumption correct ?

 

[bb21]

I have often heard announcements along the lines of 'the HH:MM train is delayed, passengers for xxxx should travel on the HH:MM train'. Such announcements have never contained any reference to ticket types and I have always assumed this means authorisation has been given to all, including holders of Advance tickets, to use the alternative service. Is my assumption correct ?

If there were no qualification, then I would agree with your understanding.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Where a service on a high frequency line is delayed, then it becomes quite probable that the passenger will be on the platform in time to take an earlier service than the delayed train (and thereby, if it runs to time, arrive at the destination earler than the service booked on the Advance ticket).

I have personal experience of this situation on many occasions, such as the early morning stopper to London which leaves Newcastle a few minutes ahead of the Flying Scotsman. When 'the flyer' is delayed in the north, the stopper gets to London sooner. In other situations, the service which is earlier thatn the booked service is timetabled to reach the destination before the booked service.

This isn't particularly relevant for journeys from Stalybridge via Manchester, where trains run twice per hour on a double-track railway.