Latin at school, other languages?

[Busaholic]

Oh I agree. It seems strange to have to learn a foreign language compulsorily to any level, though of course I think as an option it is a must. When I was a supply teacher, it seemed strange having to teach French to some students who struggled with English. After five years of French, some could barely manage ‘Bonjour, je m’appelle Jean’, though of course they knew what ‘merde’ meant.

Given that Thomas Crapper lent his name to the English language, I wonder whether there was a Marcel Merde over the pond?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

If I'd been forced to learn Latin at school, I'd probably have learned to enjoy it... but I'd also have grown up wondering why I'd been forced to waste my time learning a dead language when I could have been learning German (which would have been what made way for Latin).

The only reason to learn Latin in 2021 is to show off. If I had kids and was looking for a school to send them to, offering Latin would be a deal-breaker.

 

[johnnychips]

The only reason to learn Latin in 2021 is to show off. If I had kids and was looking for a school to send them to, offering Latin would be a deal-breaker.

I think if you wanted to show off, you would choose a school where they offered Mandarin Chinese!

Something that hasn’t been raised here is that English is now the world language, like it or not, and we can afford to be lazy. I can speak Dutch fairly well, but as soon as I open my mouth in Belgium, people say ‘ah, you must be English’ and insist on speaking to you in our language: firstly because they want to practice, but mainly because their English is a damn sight better than my Dutch!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I think if you wanted to show off, you would choose a school where they offered Mandarin Chinese!

Something that hasn’t been raised here is that English is now the world language, like it or not, and we can afford to be lazy. I can speak Dutch fairly well, but as soon as I open my mouth in Belgium, people say ‘ah, you must be English’ and insist on speaking to you in our language: firstly because they want to practice, but mainly because their English is a damn sight better than my Dutch!

My point was that Latin is a useless language except for showing off. I personally would be more impressed with someone who spoke Mandarin. If someone told me they spoke Latin, my first question would be "why?"

 

[Taunton]

Did Latin, French and German to O-Level. And of course English.

Then I married a Russian

Regarding poetry, good old John Betjeman was just short of being fashionable at the time (became Poet Laureate a few years later) and got me Grade 1 in English Lit, including a discussion about the beat of :

Gaily into Ruislip Gardens
Runs the red electric train
... etc

I held back from pointing out that by the time of the exam they were silver, which would have ruined the pace of it.

 

[tspaul26]

That is exactly what the Law Society have been doing for years. Latin is in no way required for a legal career. The remaining pompous iditols who insist on using it in everyday legal matters are doing so to try and justify their own self importance and fees.

It is somewhat amusing in one sense that such efforts to use English in legal matters date back to at least 1362 and the Statute of Pleadings.

I should perhaps clarify that I am English and Scots qualified and the latter jurisdiction is still very attached to legal Latin, largely due to the civilian sources of the legal system I suppose.

This is utter nonsense. You absolutely do not have to refer to the Latin or Law French (?) in any way, shape or form in any sort of normal legal practice in England or Wales.

I have done so (and it is a right bother).

For an example of Law French, try Le Case de Mixt Moneys

As for Institutes, Pandects and Novels of Roman law: They weren't covered in my degree. Maybe I was asleep. If I was I also missed the Latin lectures and the "Law French" seminars.

They were covered in my degree. Indeed, it was a mandatory paper in first year.

As far as I am aware they are also a fundamental part of the syllabus for a Scots law degree.

Didn’t have any Latin lectures or Law French seminars, though.

I might have been in the pub for those tbf.

It was company law that did it for me (shudder).

 

[edwin_m]

Faciam must be something to do with facere - to make or to do.

"Facism" doesn't turn up anything on a web search. I assume you're referring to fascism (but I had to look it up to check spelling). It comes from fasces meaning a bundle of sticks, an ancient Roman symbol of authority. According to Wikipedia it symbolises that is one stick is broken the bundle is relatively unaffected. Not a particularly useful piece of information IMHO.

I did Latin to the equivalent of O level along with French and German, and later did Spanish and Russian in evening classes. All except the Russian came quite easily to me, but that could have been having more in common with English than with Latin. Without ever living there they didn't give me any more than basic conversation and the ability to interpret written text without too much difficulty.

I don't particularly buy the argument that Latin helps with recognising words in other languages. If someone spent the same amount of time learning more of a modern language instead, they'd pick up just as many words and much more. Words can also be recognised from other modern languages, though either way there is the risk of the "false friend" that looks familiar but doesn't mean what you might expect. Grammatical structure is different in every language, and I really don't see why it's considered necessary to learn a dead one to understand it.

So I consider Latin, along with the study of literature in any language, as not particular relevant for life and something not to be forced on pupils unless they have a particular interest in it.

 

[jfollows]

From http://latindictionary.wikidot.com/verb:facere

	Active​	​	Passive
	Indicative	Subjunctive	Indicative	Subjunctive
	Present
Singuiar 1​	Facio	Faciam	Fio	Fiam
2​	Facis	Facias	Fis	Fias
3​	Facit	Faciat	Fit	Fiat
Plural 1​	Facimus	Faciamus	Fimus	Fiamus
2​	Facitis	Faciatis	Fitis	Fiatis
3​	Faciunt	Faciant	Fiunt	Fiant

This post is in response to Typhoon's post earlier about "faciam" which indeed comes from "facere" - to make, do, accomplish or to become.

 

[birchesgreen]

According to Wikipedia it symbolises that is one stick is broken the bundle is relatively unaffected. Not a particularly useful piece of information IMHO.

Not really, that is the core tenet of fascism (originally anyway), the individual is unimportant, the everything is important.

 

[jfollows]

Faciam must be something to do with facere - to make or to do.

First person singular present active subjunctive, yes, I think.

 

[Mat17]

I studied Latin at University, it always appealed to me more than French/German. I always liked history, so it was useful. Started as a beginner and got as far as I could get (as the courses weren't over subscribed), almost GCSE level. So not that advanced at all. I enjoyed it as it was language study that wasn't about literature or poetry (ultimate yawn factor for me) it was more technical and perhaps mathematical... Without all those pesky numbers.

The only subject in my degree that I consistently got A grades on - actually the only subject I ever got an A on (except GCSE woodwork - enthusiasm rather than actual skill).

But it was so long ago, and I haven't had to use it, that I've forgotten nearly everything.

 

[Typhoon]

View attachment 101136

First person singular present active subjunctive, yes, I think.

It looks like it. Thanks for that, when I saw #37 I was worried that I had written facism. This is what made Latin difficult for me, not only the active and passive, indicative and subjunctive but you have present, future, past. future perfect, pluperfect and something else (imperfect if my Latin is anything to go by). Every time I thought I had got on top it, something else was unleashed on us. There are something like 5 conjugations as well. We were told Latin was easy because it stuck to rules, then you find it doesn't always and the passive here looks like an example. If we did that, I had glazed over by then.

(I also remember my Latin master's favourite saying - Regina amat tablum (the queen loves the table)).

Ours was 'An adjective agrees with its noun in number' <slams text book down on desk hard> 'gender' <slams text book down on desk harder> 'and case' <slams text book down on desk even harder>. Sometimes substitute ruler for book in which case splinters of wood would go everywhere. I wouldn't mind but that was easy, its all this passive subjunctive pluperfect that got me. If only Boudicca had secured a home win!

Just a minute, we were told mensa was table (1st declension) and I thought the verb had to go at the end.

Text Book 'An Approach to Latin' vol 1 I believe.

 

[70014IronDuke]

I did Latin to O-level,and found it useful in two main ways:

1. It explained grammar and sentence construction so that I could better understand them in English;

But don't you think that learning any case-based language, eg German, Russian or any Slavic language, would help you just as well? You could even learn Romanian, which would give you a living language with 75%* of the Latin words, help with your sentence construction understanding, plus add a thousand or two Slavic words to your vocabulary to boot. (* My guestimate - not a scientific number.)

1. Many words in both English and other languages come from Latin so if you're faced with an unusual word in any language, you might be able to have a stab at its meaning.

(I also remember my Latin master's favourite saying - Regina amat tablum (the queen loves the table)).

Definitely true, but you could learn any Latin-based language and do that (and get fooled when the meaning has changed an you don't know it!)

I don't know about today's kids, but when I was at school studying French and Latin it all seemed academic, that is to say I never, ever imagined I would actually USE French to communicate, and certainly not Latin. As a result I failed Latin O level with a grade 9 (the worst) and retook French till I scraped past with a grade 6. But I did it to 'tick the box'.

Three years later, and beginning foreign travel, I found even my miserable schoolboy French was actually USEFUL and provided fun. I was soon enthusiastic about learning foreign languages, or at least something of them.

 

[AlterEgo]

I learned Latin and enjoyed it very much. Like others, I did the Cambridge Latin Course with Caecilius and his family living near Pompeii.

Latin is a very straightforward language with mostly consistent rules which provides a good grounding for learning other, modern, more complicated languages. Learning how to say Romani ite domum is all very well but it’s a little bit like mathematics - you certainly won’t need much, if any of the actual knowledge, but the way it trains your brain to think is very useful.

 

[MotCO]

But don't you think that learning any case-based language, eg German, Russian or any Slavic language, would help you just as well? You could even learn Romanian, which would give you a living language with 75%* of the Latin words, help with your sentence construction understanding a thousand or two Slavic words. (* My guestimate - not a scientific number.)

I learnt French and Latin at the same time, and learnt more about grammar from Latin than I did from French. Mind you, French is similar to English in sentence construction, whereas Latin does have different noun forms and obviously more verb forms which help emphasis the grammatical aspects of sentence construction.

 

[Mat17]

Actually on a second thought. Im of that generation that never learned grammar at school (formally that is, the technical names verbs, nouns etc.) We learned them through French and German instead. I found the German case system totally confusing as I had no real idea what was a subject or an object, let alone conjunctions, adjectives etc.

I had to study A Level English lang to learn the basics of grammar. Latin was extremely useful in showing how adj and nouns agree and verbs and subjects etc. English being so irregular and word order derived just made grammar so complex and mystifying.

 

[70014IronDuke]

I learnt French and Latin at the same time, and learnt more about grammar from Latin than I did from French. Mind you, French is similar to English in sentence construction, whereas Latin does have different noun forms and obviously more verb forms which help emphasis the grammatical aspects of sentence construction.

I can understand that - but that is why I wrote "any case-based" language, and did not include French (or Spanish or Italian - because these are not case-based in the main) as examples you could learn and gain the same understanding of English plus learn a real living language.

By the way, I edited my earlier post to better explain my points. I rushed through earlier, and it was not clear what I meant entirely.

Latin is a very straightforward language with mostly consistent rules which provides a good grounding for learning other, modern, more complicated languages. Learning how to say Romani ite domum is all very well but it’s a little bit like mathematics - you certainly won’t need much, if any of the actual knowledge, but the way it trains your brain to think is very useful.

To which I would say: "So what?" To me, this is like saying (since this is a railway group) you will understand better how the modern railway works if you first study how they operated with steam traction, semaphore signalling and vacuum brakes."

I'd say this is perfectly true - but it doesn't mean you have to study those subjects to understand how the modern railway works.

I'd argue that - assuming competent teaching were available - you could do all of the above learning German or Russian (or any Slavic language except Macedonian), or Hungarian or even one of the Baltic tongues (which are, as I understand it, case-based).

And if you really are concerned at the same time about delving into the Latin origin of some English vocabulary, learn Romanian.

But nobody - or next to nobody - does that latter because it's not in our culture.

Don't get me wrong - if you want to learn Latin - fine.

But I don't agree with the argument that it helps you learn other languages or understand English better (because you've never learned or fully understood the grammer of English) versus the language learning options that I've given above. And doing one of those means you end up with a real, working language - even if some options are obscure.

 

[tspaul26]

(I also remember my Latin master's favourite saying - Regina amat tablum (the queen loves the table)).

Just a minute, we were told mensa was table (1st declension)

If the sentence were rendered “Regina amat tabulam” then I would understand it to mean “The Queen loves gambling”.

I thought the verb had to go at the end.

Text Book 'An Approach to Latin' vol 1 I believe.

Not always. Terminal verbs are less common in Livy’s and Cicero’s writings.

In this instance, placing the object at the end of the sentence might connote surprise that the Queen indulges in such a vice.

“Tabulam Regina amat” would potentially go further and indicate shock at the Queen’s activities i.e. a perception of scandal.

There is a book called (imaginatively) Latin Word Order by Devine and Stephens which explores this in a fair amount of detail.

 

[edwin_m]

My point was that Latin is a useless language except for showing off. I personally would be more impressed with someone who spoke Mandarin. If someone told me they spoke Latin, my first question would be "why?"

I should think there are lots of opportunities for a Mandarin-speaker, as English is less widespread in China. I've also found that in multinational meetings everyone is fairly happy to speak English and many are glad to be able to practice, whereas if I tried to join a meeting in any of the languages I've studied I'd just be wasting everyone's time.

However, there's the famous saying (which I had to look up) from Willi Brandt:

If I’m selling to you, I speak your language. If I’m buying, dann müssen Sie Deutsch sprechen! [then you must speak German]​

That would rule out someone like me (and not just because I'm hopeless at selling). We don't seem to sell much to the Roman empire - perhaps we should all learn Latin to exploit this opportunity...

 

[tspaul26]

We don't seem to sell much to the Roman empire - perhaps we should all learn Latin to exploit this opportunity...

You will need:

1. Seven witnesses;
2. A magistrate;
3. A set of scales;
4. A brass rod; and
5. A Fairy Liquid bottle.

 

[takno]

I can understand that - but that is why I wrote "any case-based" language, and did not include French (or Spanish or Italian - because these are not case-based in the main) as examples you could learn and gain the same understanding of English plus learn a real living language.

I would have preferred to have learned Russian at school to be honest, but that would have added another alphabet and real-world pronunciation issues to the things to get through. You'd be virtually at the end of the GCSE before you had time to think about grammar in much depth. Something like Czech would be slightly more manageable perhaps, but of slightly limited utility.

Fundamentally though, the cold war meant that they couldn't get the teachers, a lot of people viewed the interest with suspicion, and you were far less likely to use the language learned than you were, say, french.

By not being a living language, Latin changes the study into a purely academic exercise, which has its uses. The idea of teaching it at wide scale and in GCSE seems utterly bizarre though

 

[edwin_m]

I would have preferred to have learned Russian at school to be honest, but that would have added another alphabet and real-world pronunciation issues to the things to get through. You'd be virtually at the end of the GCSE before you had time to think about grammar in much depth. Something like Czech would be slightly more manageable perhaps, but of slightly limited utility.

Fundamentally though, the cold war meant that they couldn't get the teachers, a lot of people viewed the interest with suspicion, and you were far less likely to use the language learned than you were, say, french.

By not being a living language, Latin changes the study into a purely academic exercise, which has its uses. The idea of teaching it at wide scale and in GCSE seems utterly bizarre though

The forces put a lot of their best and brightest, including those on National Service, through Russian courses in the 1950s for rather obvious reasons. This would have provided a source of potential teachers in later decades if the interest had been there to exploit it.

 

[70014IronDuke]

I would have preferred to have learned Russian at school to be honest, but that would have added another alphabet and real-world pronunciation issues to the things to get through. You'd be virtually at the end of the GCSE before you had time to think about grammar in much depth. Something like Czech would be slightly more manageable perhaps, but of slightly limited utility.

....

He he he! Funny you should write that.

Perhaps 18 years ago I met an English colleague who had studied Russian and Czech in (the then) Czechoslovakia. She had then gone to Hungary and learned Hungarian to a very decent level, before returning to the UK.

So, knowing how many Hungarians boast their tongue is "impossibly difficult" to learn, I asked her which was the most difficult in her experience. She thought for a second or two and replied: "Czech."

Of course, a lot depends on what one means by "learn a language" - you can be fluent and understand well, but speak badly in terms of pronunciation and/or grammar, read well, but write awfully, etc.

In truth, having dabled in learning some Slavic, I'm darned sure they are all difficult for native English speakers - but Czech seems to be one devil of a vernacular to get right. In fact, within the last month a Czech friend told me that even Slovaks struggle to get it right (unless they are pitch perfect, she says), and that the current PM Babis - who is a Slovak by birth - can't speak Czech properly and sounds silly when he tries, which he normally does to ingratiate himself with his voters.

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

The suggestion that Latin is being offered more widely to please certain tory circles is interesting.

Likewise the comments, most have learnt one or more extra/foreign language. I do find quite a lot of French, Dutch and Welsh in my head, I can read a bit of these languages but cannot claim to speak them.

I think it is best to concentrate on one foreign/extra language rather than trying several.

I think during the cold war the UK made sure a few people learned Russian, for obvious reasons.

 

[Typhoon]

If the sentence were rendered “Regina amat tabulam” then I would understand it to mean “The Queen loves gambling”.

Not always. Terminal verbs are less common in Livy’s and Cicero’s writings.

In this instance, placing the object at the end of the sentence might connote surprise that the Queen indulges in such a vice.

“Tabulam Regina amat” would potentially go further and indicate shock at the Queen’s activities i.e. a perception of scandal.

There is a book called (imaginatively) Latin Word Order by Devine and Stephens which explores this in a fair amount of detail.

See, that's the point. It was drummed into us that Latin was easy as it followed certain rules; learn the rules and its easy. So, it started great, then you go on to second declension, words end in 'us', then you find there are words ending in 'er', then you find there are neutral words ending in 'um' which have slightly different in the endings for different cases. Now I learn that verbs don't have to go at the end, if only I had known I could have told my Latin teacher that I understood that Livy didn't put the verbs at the end. I was miss-sold it as a language that is easy to learn. I could have taken geography instead which wouldn't have altered my career choice but would have meant I had a greater understanding of the terrain when I went walking; or one of the other languages quoted, Czech would have been ideal or Hungarian, I regret not learning to speak an obscure language as it would be useful when confronted by chuggers, or receiving nuisance phone calls (not Russian, they might understand every word).

Williamson wants there to be no difference between what is taught in independent schools and state schools - fine, make public schools follow the National Curriculum, not teach state school pupils Latin. Latin is supposed to help in Maths, not to me. Greek would have been more useful. I might have learnt how to form a lower case xi!

 

[DarloRich]

I should perhaps clarify that I am English and Scots qualified and the latter jurisdiction is still very attached to legal Latin, largely due to the civilian sources of the legal system I suppose.

Ah! well that explains it It is worth noting that the practice of law in England and Wales does not require any latin knowledge


For an example of Law French, try Le Case de Mixt Moneys
I could get through that with my French but it would be hard and VERY slow going.

They were covered in my degree. Indeed, it was a mandatory paper in first year.

As far as I am aware they are also a fundamental part of the syllabus for a Scots law degree.

Didn’t have any Latin lectures or Law French seminars, though.

I did Admiralty law as an elective. Fascinating. Totally useless in the everyday world

It was company law that did it for me (shudder).

My company/corporate law lectures were so dull I think I suffered blunt force trauma to my brain. Hated them.

 

[Busaholic]

The suggestion that Latin is being offered more widely to please certain tory circles is interesting.

If the intention is to produce more B. Johnson clones then the idea must be resisted by any means possible.

 

[takno]

I think it is best to concentrate on one foreign/extra language rather than trying several.

I think that depends a bit on the learner and the reasons for learning. Certainly if you're aiming to specifically be able to communicate in specific foreign country, or you have limited time to learn and want to come out of the experience with a concrete skill then one language is best. If you're trying to learn more of the fundamentals of grammar and language, then having a couple of language groups to compare can be pretty useful though.

If you are going to go on to learn more languages then the earlier you get started on multiples the better. Just knowing one other language often leaves you doing word-by-word translation whilst applying unfamiliar or unclear rules, which is painstaking and effectively impossible to do at normal talking speed. Learning several tends to force you to understand what the rules mean at a more fundamental level, meaning that the specific rules for the individual languages can be acquired more quickly.

 

[AlterEgo]

To which I would say: "So what?" To me, this is like saying (since this is a railway group) you will understand better how the modern railway works if you first study how they operated with steam traction, semaphore signalling and vacuum brakes."

I'd say this is perfectly true - but it doesn't mean you have to study those subjects to understand how the modern railway works.

It’s more like saying if you understand mathematics and logic you’ll be a good controller. Understanding of systems is really crucial and that’s why prospective train drivers are often asked in interview of their experience with following prescriptive rules.

Latin does not teach you about other languages but it does train your brain in a way which is different to many modern languages.

I have never needed to use mathematics beyond a level which was taught to me at age 10-12, yet we prioritise mathematics for precisely the same reason as the above. I don’t *need* algebra, but the way algebra makes you think is a useful skill.

 

[D365]

I enjoyed doing Latin at school till the end of Third Year (Year 9 now) and it has helped me pick up other languages. I also enjoyed the story of Caecilius in Pompeii - I wonder if anybody else used those texts on here? Naturally, at the end of the course, we all knew what was coming, which is more than Caecilius did.

I learned Latin and enjoyed it very much. Like others, I did the Cambridge Latin Course with Caecilius and his family living near Pompeii.

CLC was a classic. The modern textbooks look so modern that I wasn't aware it was first published in the seventies! A shame that I only completed one month of the course, modern languages were prioritised of course.