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Layla Moran has declared she is pansexual

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AlterEgo

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Moderator note: split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/liberal-democrats-where-next-for-them.196875

Layla Moran has declared she is pansexual.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-50978997
Liberal Democrat MP Layla Moran has announced she is pansexual and in a relationship with a woman.

The MP for Oxford West and Abingdon, who previously only had relationships with men, told PinkNews she is in a relationship with ex-Lib Dem press officer Rosy Cobb.

Pansexuality describes those who are attracted to a person regardless of their sex or gender.

"It's about the person themselves," said Ms Moran...
 
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DynamicSpirit

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I had to Google that and I am still not sure what it means or what bearing it has on her job (or even if I am still allowed to refer to Layla Moran as "her")

As far as I can see, it has basically no bearing on her job. And I would say she is very definitely a 'she' (Pansexual is about which gender you find attractive, not which gender you are).
 

AlterEgo

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I had to Google that and I am still not sure what it means or what bearing it has on her job (or even if I am still allowed to refer to Layla Moran as "her")

A pansexual is a bisexual who thinks there are more than two genders and is attracted to 'all' of them; it's the epitome of "born this way, essence of personality" thinking.

It has nothing to do with her job or ability as an MP however.
 

scotrail158713

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A pansexual is a bisexual who thinks there are more than two genders and is attracted to 'all' of them
So that’s the difference - thanks for the explanation. I looked it up this morning and couldn’t see a difference between the two of them.
 

edwin_m

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I think the bulletin on R4 this morning just as I woke up wrongly claimed she was trans-sexual.
 

Edders23

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Am I the only one who thinks this is more of a PR stunt than anything serious
 

mmh

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A pansexual is a bisexual who thinks there are more than two genders and is attracted to 'all' of them; it's the epitome of "born this way, essence of personality" thinking.

It has nothing to do with her job or ability as an MP however.

Oh I think it speaks volumes about how she performs her job and how she'd act as party leader - more concerned with appearance and virtue signalling than anything constructive. She's in a relationship with a woman. Who cares? But she has to make a story out of it. There's been non-heterosexual MPs in the Liberal parties for decades. Some of them have even been open about it.

I suppose the pansexual claptrap matches her being "able to see people's souls" claptrap though.

Her partner isn't someone anonymous, incidentally. She's the former head of press for the LibDems, suspended for faking emails who also threatened a journalist investigating an alleged cover-up.
 

DynamicSpirit

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Oh I think it speaks volumes about how she performs her job and how she'd act as party leader - more concerned with appearance and virtue signalling than anything constructive. She's in a relationship with a woman. Who cares? But she has to make a story out of it. There's been non-heterosexual MPs in the Liberal parties for decades. Some of them have even been open about it.

To some extent, yes, who cares if she's in a relationship with a woman. But to be fair, it's hardly her fault if much of the media decide to make a big thing of it. I believe her stated justification for coming out with it now is that some of media were planning to out her anyway, so she chose to go ahead on her terms. Impossible to know how true that was, but the huge splash the Mail has made of it does lend some credence to that.

I suppose the pansexual claptrap matches her being "able to see people's souls" claptrap though.

Being pansexual is definitely not claptrap. It's a variant of bisexuality that explicitly recognises that gender is not always a binary thing - that some people don't identify as 100% male or 100% female. And arguably it address the needs of a small minority who still face some prejudice and lack of understanding of their sexuality. Somewhat ironically, I'd suggest your dismissal of it as 'claptrap' provides good evidence that it's something that needs more public discussion. And the fact that at one person on this thread has already said that they had to Google what pansexual meant suggests that Layla's coming out has done some good - if it raises awareness.

And did Layla actually say anything about being "able to see people's souls" or did you just make that up?

Her partner isn't someone anonymous, incidentally. She's the former head of press for the LibDems, suspended for faking emails who also threatened a journalist investigating an alleged cover-up.

I think that's potentially the more serious issue here. To be pedantic, Rosy Cobb was suspended for forging one email, not multiple emails. Still pretty serious though.

I'd like to think that if someone I deeply loved was found to have done something like that, I'd make it clear that I disapproved of their actions, while supporting them and standing by them as my partner - and it would seem to me very reasonable if Layla Moran did that - and if she did, there would be no reasonable grounds for criticising her over it. I did read a statement the other day in which she seemed to go quite a bit of the way towards saying that, although I can't now find the link.
 

AlterEgo

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Being pansexual is definitely not claptrap. It's a variant of bisexuality that explicitly recognises that gender is not always a binary thing - that some people don't identify as 100% male or 100% female. And arguably it address the needs of a small minority who still face some prejudice and lack of understanding of their sexuality. Somewhat ironically, I'd suggest your dismissal of it as 'claptrap' provides good evidence that it's something that needs more public discussion. And the fact that at one person on this thread has already said that they had to Google what pansexual meant suggests that Layla's coming out has done some good - if it raises awareness.

Pansexuality is a claim to be attracted to "every" gender without declaring any knowledge of how many there are, which is why

being "able to see people's souls"

...is sort of what it is; it's a claim of being attracted explicitly to people's personalities with zero consideration for the person's physical form. It's not possible to logically claim you're attracted to every single gender when you claim there are infinite ones, essentially on a sliding scale - because you can't possibly know every gender and hence can't claim that you will be attracted to every gender.

The entire gender thing will be seen by future generations as a bizarre mass hysteria event perpetuated by a tiny fragement of a culture far too bored with itself.
 

Busaholic

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Pansexuality is a claim to be attracted to "every" gender without declaring any knowledge of how many there are, which is why



...is sort of what it is; it's a claim of being attracted explicitly to people's personalities with zero consideration for the person's physical form. It's not possible to logically claim you're attracted to every single gender when you claim there are infinite ones, essentially on a sliding scale - because you can't possibly know every gender and hence can't claim that you will be attracted to every gender.

The entire gender thing will be seen by future generations as a bizarre mass hysteria event perpetuated by a tiny fragement of a culture far too bored with itself.
Couldn't agree more. I wonder how many people enduring the horrors of Idlib are worrying about their pansexuality.
 

mmh

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Being pansexual is definitely not claptrap. It's a variant of bisexuality that explicitly recognises that gender is not always a binary thing - that some people don't identify as 100% male or 100% female. And arguably it address the needs of a small minority who still face some prejudice and lack of understanding of their sexuality. Somewhat ironically, I'd suggest your dismissal of it as 'claptrap' provides good evidence that it's something that needs more public discussion. And the fact that at one person on this thread has already said that they had to Google what pansexual meant suggests that Layla's coming out has done some good - if it raises awareness.

Sorry, I stand by my belief it's claptrap. Someone's sexuality cannot possibly be influenced by someone else's individual identification of themselves. I'm gay. I find men attractive. I don't instinctively know if they would prefer to be a woman!

I would actually suggest that rather than more public discussion, we could do with less, or rather a brake on some of the more outlandish discussion. It's becoming counter-productive sadly and People's urge to appear understanding and inclusive risks creating a less understanding and inclusive world.

The cliche double-entendre of "I don't mind gays so long as they don't ram it down my throat has more than a smidgen of truth.

And did Layla actually say anything about being "able to see people's souls" or did you just make that up?

She did yes, in the Commons during a debate on self identification of gender. She said "I see someone in their soul and as a person. I do not really care whether they have a male body."

The full quote and the debate in Hansard can be found here: https://hansard.parliament.uk/commo...87B1-9B77F32EA155/Self-IdentificationOfGender

It's absolute claptrap, and in the context of the debate wishy washy and meaningless. Along with Swinson's infamous failing to be able to say what a woman is during the election campaign, despite her campaign's second pillar being her being a woman, it's another example of people falling over themselves to be, and I dislike the term but it fits here, "woke."
 

Esker-pades

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Sorry, I stand by my belief it's claptrap. Someone's sexuality cannot possibly be influenced by someone else's individual identification of themselves. I'm gay. I find men attractive. I don't instinctively know if they would prefer to be a woman!
Could you provide some evidence for this statement? Given how complicated sexuality is, I really wouldn't be surprised.
Further, pansexuality is the opposite. It means that a person can be attracted to someone else reguardless of their sex/gender and how they identify.


I would actually suggest that rather than more public discussion, we could do with less, or rather a brake on some of the more outlandish discussion. It's becoming counter-productive sadly and People's urge to appear understanding and inclusive risks creating a less understanding and inclusive world.
Why is it outlandish to have a sexuality that includes transgender, gender non-binary, and other forms of gender queerness? And how is such discussion counter-productive? To me, it seems as that the backlash of people who are as dismissive as you appear to be about different types of sexuality and gender identity fuel said 'less iunderstanding and inclusive' world. The solution to that is not for people who identify in such a way to shut up and go away.


The cliche double-entendre of "I don't mind gays so long as they don't ram it down my throat has more than a smidgen of truth.



She did yes, in the Commons during a debate on self identification of gender. She said "I see someone in their soul and as a person. I do not really care whether they have a male body."

The full quote and the debate in Hansard can be found here: https://hansard.parliament.uk/commo...87B1-9B77F32EA155/Self-IdentificationOfGender

It's absolute claptrap, and in the context of the debate wishy washy and meaningless. Along with Swinson's infamous failing to be able to say what a woman is during the election campaign, despite her campaign's second pillar being her being a woman, it's another example of people falling over themselves to be, and I dislike the term but it fits here, "woke."
Or, it's her coming out as having a sexuality other than straight.


Pansexuality is a claim to be attracted to "every" gender without declaring any knowledge of how many there are, which is why

being "able to see people's souls"

...is sort of what it is; it's a claim of being attracted explicitly to people's personalities with zero consideration for the person's physical form. It's not possible to logically claim you're attracted to every single gender when you claim there are infinite ones, essentially on a sliding scale - because you can't possibly know every gender and hence can't claim that you will be attracted to every gender.
It may be more helpful to think of it as attraction "regardless" or sex or gender identity.

It isn't necessarily seeing into "people's souls". Physical attraction is part of pansexuality. But, said physical attraction also exists for people with other gender identities.

A person who has experienced attraction to 2 or more genders may identify as pansexual without having experienced attracted to every single gender. There is no other way to express this other than to call oneself a 'pansexual' (possibly 'bisexual' - some bisexuals are attracted to genderqueer people). It leaves the possibility open.

It is also slightly silly to mandate that one has to be so specific with one's identity. "I'm pansexual, except for Agender people".
It is unrealistic to expect pansexuals to go through every single gender and say "have you been attracted to them? You haven't? Then you can't identify as pansexual." That's not a thing, and should not be a thing. Effectively, one could define pansexuality as covering people who are sexually attracted to between 3 and ∞ genders.

The entire gender thing will be seen by future generations as a bizarre mass hysteria event perpetuated by a tiny fragement of a culture far too bored with itself.
Please tell me more about how you can see into the future. And perhaps the lottery numbers for a big jackpot weekend in the coming year as well.


To any pansexuals reading this, please tell me if I'm getting stuff catastrophically wrong. I'm not pan, so I'm not going to know as much as you will.
 

DarloRich

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I'm gay. I find men attractive. I don't instinctively know if they would prefer to be a woman!

What about a man in a dress? Could you find him attractive? This is all very confusing. Cant we all just get along? Can we not just be sexual?

EDIT - I BEST add I am being factious. I don't care what or who anyone does in their sex life as long as it is consensual and legal. Oh, and not as good as mine!
 
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Raul_Duke

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The cliche double-entendre of "I don't mind gays so long as they don't ram it down my throat has more than a smidgen of truth.
 

Esker-pades

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What about a man in a dress? Could you find him attractive? This is all very confusing. Cant we all just get along? Can we not just be sexual?
Perhaps not, because Asexuality exists (here I'm thinking of sexual as being defined as having sexual attraction to others, as per the context of this discussion).
 

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EDIT - I BEST add I am being factious. I don't care what or who anyone does in their sex life as long as it is consensual and legal. Oh, and not as good as mine!

I wish this was a more prevalent attitude, rather than this seemingly never ending hunt to find a new gender/identity/attraction as a hill to die on. Go do whatever makes you happy to whoever makes you happy as long as its all consensual and legal.
 

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Sorry, I stand by my belief it's claptrap. Someone's sexuality cannot possibly be influenced by someone else's individual identification of themselves. I'm gay. I find men attractive. I don't instinctively know if they would prefer to be a woman!

I think you've slightly missed the point. Would you be attracted to a female to male trans? That's what pansexuality is about, isn't it?
 

Calthrop

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Having no interest whatsoever in Layla Moran, or who or what Layla Moran would wish to go to bed with; I'm wondering whether I could get away with claiming to be so ignorant that I think "Pan Sexual" is a notorious filthy parody of Poland's great national epic poem Pan Tadeusz ...
 

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Perhaps not, because Asexuality exists

I am not sure about that. I think everyone has sexual urges. Some may lack the ability to fulfil them, the confidence to act on them or the skills to acquire mate. Some may be unable to process those urges or be disgusted by them but they exist and some may simply not have had the access or opportunity to enjoy them or ultimately may not have fund that person to share with. Yet.
 

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I am not sure about that. I think everyone has sexual urges. Some may lack the ability to fulfil them, the confidence to act on them or the skills to acquire mate. Some may be unable to process those urges or be disgusted by them but they exist and some may simply not have had the access or opportunity to enjoy them or ultimately may not have f[o]und that person to share with. Yet.
Well, asexuality really does exist. ~1-4% of the population (depending on what studies one reads) reports as being asexual.

Asexuality is not a lack of sexual urges. It is the lack of sexual attraction. Some asexuals have a libido (desire for sex). Their asexuality is derived from the fact that they do not get sexually attracted to anyone or anything.*

Lacking the ability to fulfill one's sexual urges does not make one asexual.

Lacking the confidence to act on one's sexual urges does not make one asexual.

(You can tell where this is going...)

Lacking the skills to mate does not make one asexual.

Lacking the access or opportunity to enjoy sex does not make one asexual.

Not being able to find a sexual partner does not make one asexual.

An inability to process sexual urges does not make one asexual.

Being disgusted by one's sexual urges does not make one asexual.

Some asexuals may be able to identify with one or more of those statements (for example, some asexuals are sex-repulsed), but that doesn't mean that it is true for all asexuals. Likewise, allosexuals (people who experience sexual attraction; opposite to asexuals) may also identify with one or more of those statements.

*Broader definitions include the phrase "except in very limited circumstances" to be more inclusive to the various parts of the asexual spectrum (demisexual etc.)
 
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DarloRich

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Well, asexuality really does exist. ~1-4% of the population (depending on what studies one reads) reports as being asexual.

If people want to classify themselves as asexual that is cool. I remain to be convinced it isn't simply a lack of skill or confidence (or a new trendy badge we all have to have these days!) but I will bow to your superior knowledge. If it is a thing, and it isn't a thing I have any knowledge of, I feel very sorry for them. I am sure they don't want my sympathy but they have it. They are missing out on so much.
 

Esker-pades

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If people want to classify themselves as asexual that is cool.
Thanks?

I remain to be convinced it isn't simply a lack of skill or confidence (or a new trendy badge we all have to have these days!) but I will bow to your superior knowledge.
What would convince you?

If it is a thing, and it isn't a thing I have any knowledge of, I feel very sorry for them. I am sure they don't want my sympathy but they have it. They are missing out on so much.
As stated before, some asexuals thoroughly enjoy sex (they just don't experience sexual attraction).
For those asexuals who do not experience any urges to have sex (or don't want to have sex, or both), they're missing out on nothing because they don't like it.

btw does chucking in the phrase "except in very limited circumstances" not invalidate the concept?
This is where the phrase 'asexual spectrum' comes in. Everyone sits on it (most sit on the allosexual end). People who experience little sexual attraction, or only in very limited circumstances would be on the asexual end of the spectrum, and would be known broadly as 'grey-ace'. Identities such as demisexuality (only experiencing sexual attraction once a deep emotional bond has formed) would be classified as on the asexual spectrum, but not completely asexual. The 'asexual community' generally includes both.
 

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What would convince you?

I am not a trendy right on student obsessed with labels so not much! I am happy for people to get on with their lives as they wish. I might not agree with their "label" but it is their label to wear. I am not looking to impose my own label or definition on people!
 
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Esker-pades

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I am not a trendy right on student obsessed with labels so not much!
I'll have a go:

If you take your 'cliché' sex-repulsed asexual, a lack of confidence or skill in the act of sexual intercourse would be irrelevant because they do not want to have sex in the first place. This goes for any other asexual who may not necessarily be sex-repulsed, but simply has no interest in sex, or does not want to have it (for reasons other than because they find it repulsive or disgusting - the definition of 'sex-repulsed').

Moving away from that, I mentioned that some asexuals have a sex-drive and have sex to satisfy said sex-drive. In this case, the idea that a lack of confidence or skill is equally silly because they have sex.

The idea that people identify as a particularly sexuality or gender I find a baffling one. I will assume it stems from the fact that a large proportion of young people identify as some form of LBGTQ+ (I'll refer to this as queerness from here). This increasing proportion of the population identifying as queer can be explained in a couple of ways.
Firstly, the visibility of different sexualities and genders means that more people are able to be public about their identity, where they would previously have only identified as such in private (closeted). In a similar way to the fact that one of the explanations for a rise in hate-crime is because people are more likely to report that it has happened to them, now that different sexualities and genders are more known, more people are likely to report as being queer in whatever way.
Secondly, the visibility of different types of queerness means that people who wouldn't have realised that feeling in such a way was 'an option'. I would put myself into this latter category because, before the concept of asexuality was not something I was aware of until about 2 years ago. Once I had done some research, I realised that it explained how I felt very well. Prior to that, I had assumed that everyone had to experience sexual attraction, and thus I was gay by process of elimination.

I hope this helps.
 

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I realised that it explained how I felt very well. Prior to that, I had assumed that everyone had to experience sexual attraction, and thus I was gay by process of elimination.

I hope this helps.

It is more important it helps you. I am very happy with my sexual life!

I don't want to get further into this because my views and expression of them ( or perhaps my style/wording) will upset you or others. I am not an ogre, I simply resit the trendy "right on" desire to give everyone a label. We don't need them. I treat people as I find and treat them as people.

PS I would be hounded and banned for using the word "queer" to describe anyone.
 
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