Lea Bridge station

[swt_passenger]

On completion of this build it will be no more unusual than any number of stations with one sided access to the street; and where lifts have replaced the original barrow crossing used by prams and wheelchairs.

 

[jopsuk]

Also, if/when service is increased to 4tph each way and possibly taken over by some part of TfL the station design allows for a building- and possibly even a gateline- so if the line becomes busy the station can become manned (of course it's unlikely an actual ticket office would appear)

 

[mr_jrt]

Still hope they have left provision for that entrance ramp on Argyle Way to be replaced with another through line or two...(even if it means reinstating the station building above the tracks)

Actually, thinking about it, if you treated the outside lines as the loops they could have got away with only one lift (down to an island platform). Of course, that would have required a replacement station building over the tracks again, not to mention track changes, so somewhat negating the costs.... but still.

 

[jopsuk]

Why would you want an extra track there? I can't see how that would be helpful?

 

[scott118]

will they ever reinstate Farm Curve though?

 

[jopsuk]

That would be an interesting one- Walthamstow & Chingford do have poor connectivity by rail to Stratford, I could see an Overground type service being a winner there. But even that wouldn't require a further track at Lea Bridge, though if it were (say) a 4tph service you'd then definitely need the extra platform and track at Stratford to be able to turn back the 8tph combined

 

[Class 170101]

Or perhaps extend some of the NLL services through Stratford (using 11 and 12) instead to Chingford via Hall Farm?

 

[Bald Rick]

Or perhaps extend some of the NLL services through Stratford (using 11 and 12) instead to Chingford via Hall Farm?

What, via the GEML???!!!!

 

[Bald Rick]

Why would you want an extra track there? I can't see how that would be helpful?

Quite. 4 tracks for 4 trains per hour and the occasional freight feels a little bit OTT.

 

[jopsuk]

Quite. 4 tracks for 4 trains per hour and the occasional freight feels a little bit OTT.

Even three tracks and a fantasy 8tph (connecting Stratford to Walthamstow isn't even mentioned in the Route Study) would be OTT

 

[mr_jrt]

Quite. 4 tracks for 4 trains per hour and the occasional freight feels a little bit OTT.

I'm not saying to do it now - I'm saying to do it if service levels increase, but to do so more easily in the future you probably to make passive provision of some sort, even if that's just not building anything significant on the trackbed of the former lines that were there before:

 

[jopsuk]

What, via the GEML???!!!!

I guess the Avoiding is part of the GEML? I think he's suggesting, from the Hackney Wick direction, going straight on at Channelsea South junction rather than taking the route into platforms 1/2 and round the Channelsea Curve to Stratford Central Junction west then east, into platform 12 and onwards to Lea Bridge Road. Potentially forming a very convoluted Richmond-Chingford service

 

[jopsuk]

I'm not saying to do it now - I'm saying to do it if service levels increase, but to do so more easily in the future you probably to make passive provision of some sort, even if that's just not building anything significant on the trackbed of the former lines that were there before:

Too late for that! The new station entrance is now there, and the sidings are being developed.

And as far as I can tell that was only ever sidings anyway, there were only two tracks under Lea Bridge Road?

 

[scott118]

And as far as I can tell that was only ever sidings anyway, there were only two tracks under Lea Bridge Road?

look like there was once more...

 

[mr_jrt]

Too late for that! The new station entrance is now there, and the sidings are being developed.

And as far as I can tell that was only ever sidings anyway, there were only two tracks under Lea Bridge Road?

That's fine, as long as the entrance is just a lightweight structure you could remove with just a bulldozer. Once you start building substantial things is where you would have problems.

...and I think this one shows the old layout a bit clearer:

 

[Bald Rick]

I guess the Avoiding is part of the GEML? I think he's suggesting, from the Hackney Wick direction, going straight on at Channelsea South junction rather than taking the route into platforms 1/2 and round the Channelsea Curve to Stratford Central Junction west then east, into platform 12 and onwards to Lea Bridge Road. Potentially forming a very convoluted Richmond-Chingford service

To get from P11 to Carpenders Road / Channelsea Junctions and the NLL, the only route is via the track that leads from the Down Main to P10A. So, if that service was to run in the peak, some GEML peak trains would have to come out of the timetable...

 

[Bald Rick]

I'm not saying to do it now - I'm saying to do it if service levels increase, but to do so more easily in the future you probably to make passive provision of some sort, even if that's just not building anything significant on the trackbed of the former lines that were there before

There is absolutely no prospect of service levels increasing to the level where one track each way would be insufficient. There are plenty of other constraints on that short stretch of line that would stop a frequency of more than 6-8tph in any event, eg platform capacity at Stratford, requirement for peak access to Orient Way, Coppermill Junction to name but three.

 

[jopsuk]

Quite- I'm not sure why Mr_jrt is so hell bent on this. The Anglia Route Study doesn't even mention the idea of a third (or fourth) track here- it's simply not considered by the industry and the new station doesn't really make any provision for it.

Having said that I've no idea where the additional West Anglia track and platform would go at Stratford, and that IS in the Route Study as an option for funders (to deal with the Orient Way peak access problem if you've got 4tph reversing)

 

[plcd1]

Quite- I'm not sure why Mr_jrt is so hell bent on this. The Anglia Route Study doesn't even mention the idea of a third (or fourth) track here- it's simply not considered by the industry and the new station doesn't really make any provision for it.

Having said that I've no idea where the additional West Anglia track and platform would go at Stratford, and that IS in the Route Study as an option for funders (to deal with the Orient Way peak access problem if you've got 4tph reversing)

Table 7.2 in the Anglia Route Study says the following.

Would require an additional 12-car bay platform at Stratford located between Platforms 10a and 11, and additional track capacity between Stratford and Ruckholt Road to allow for access to Orient Way Carriage sidings. The number of services diverted from the WAML to Stratford will be constrained by the need to access Orient Way Carriage sidings. This will therefore constrain the number of additional Great Eastern Main Line services delivered by this option and reduce the capacity available to meet WAML conditional outputs.

There is space there but they do need to safeguard it pretty quickly or else it might get built it. Ditto for securing the space for the third track and making sure nothing silly happens between now and when it is needed. That should be largely in NR's own control.

 

[jon0844]

I should point out that it looks loads better since they put down the weed killer.

 

[mr_jrt]

The "industry" considers exactly what they are told to consider, and those frames of reference are usually set by blinkered politicians. I'm not hell-bent on it at all, I just don't like seeing opportunities going to waste, basically - I think a projection of LO from Stratford would be really, really useful. 4tph up the WAML and 4tph to Chingford seems a nice fit, and fitting in the freight around that 8tph will give you near enough the exact same problems we see on the LO core between Camden and Dalston, abet slightly reduced as there would only be one station - Lea Bridge, so even if you couldn't manage a full 4-tracking, then loops there to let freight sail past stopped LO trains make sense.

There are constraints, yes, but not actually that many. I'm just arguing against adding another nail to the coffin of improving that corridor when it's decided it does need improving. The 4-tracking north of Coppermill is, at this point, pretty much for CR2. I suspect that is why it's not been deemed necessary to continue it south from there. There are other services that would be beneficial though - a I mentioned above, the infamous Hall Farm curve is one. Casting a quick eye across the route there are only really three constraints to extending LO from Stratford to Chingford - the platform layout at Stratford (I've still no idea why the LO platforms were built as they were rather than as potential through lines, but you could still convert them to 3 through lines easily enough, which could be fine for freight), the bridge over the Stratford International Box, and Temple Mills Lane bridge due to the Eurostar depot line to Temple Mills rising up alongside the line.

There is discussion ongoing about rafting over the OOC HS2 box to prevent making the same mistakes as Stratford again. If that proves successful, I suspect we may see a renewed push for the same to happen at Stratford in the future. Installation of that would obviously solve the bridge issue, but even if it doesn't happen, it's not exactly beyond the realm of possibility to install a wider bridge. As for the other constraints, widening the Temple Mills Lane bridge is child's play given the scale of works that have been done elsewhere even just within the last few years, so I don't really see it as an obstacle, just a piece of work that would need to be factored in.

 

[mr_jrt]

There is space there but they do need to safeguard it pretty quickly or else it might get built it. Ditto for securing the space for the third track and making sure nothing silly happens between now and when it is needed. That should be largely in NR's own control.

Well there you go - I considered another option for more through lines would be to move the junction and platforms 12 and 11 east, then connect platforms 1 and 2 through to the current lines, but dismissed it as too disruptive. Once again, we're shown that when deemed necessary, these things *are* viable. NR will either find the room for a 3rd track under Temple Mills Ln, or have to widen the bridge, and will have to find some way to get another track over the Stratford Box.

So there you go - move 11 & 12 eastwards, connect up 1 & 2 and you have your 4 through platforms, and if that proposal happens in full you'll also have 3 tracks through to Temple Mills, and there are no obstacles whatsoever to getting through Lea Bridge station from there aside from the new station entrance.

 

[Class 170101]

What, via the GEML???!!!!

I guess the Avoiding is part of the GEML? I think he's suggesting, from the Hackney Wick direction, going straight on at Channelsea South junction rather than taking the route into platforms 1/2 and round the Channelsea Curve to Stratford Central Junction west then east, into platform 12 and onwards to Lea Bridge Road. Potentially forming a very convoluted Richmond-Chingford service

Yes I was suggesting extending Richmond / Clapham to Stratford services onwards to Chingford if Hall Farm was built.

 

[Class 170101]

To get from P11 to Carpenders Road / Channelsea Junctions and the NLL, the only route is via the track that leads from the Down Main to P10A. So, if that service was to run in the peak, some GEML peak trains would have to come out of the timetable...

In the morning peak possibly so on current schedules. In the evening peak there actually appear to be some gaps at Stratford.

However if thats such an issue how about reversing in Platforms 1 and 2 at Stratford and route the trains via High Meads instead?

The other option is to install a crossover on Channelsea Curve between Stratford Central Jn West and Carpenders Road North Jn and let all trains use Platform 12 through Stratford.

 

[Class 170101]

There is absolutely no prospect of service levels increasing to the level where one track each way would be insufficient. There are plenty of other constraints on that short stretch of line that would stop a frequency of more than 6-8tph in any event, eg platform capacity at Stratford, requirement for peak access to Orient Way, Coppermill Junction to name but three.

Not quite sure why Coppermill Jn would be a constraint for a Stratford to Chingford via Hall Farm curve service.

 

[plcd1]

As a local I would very much like to see a Chingford - Stratford service. The trick will be how you schedule it without damaging the service to Liv St, the ECS runs from Chingford into Liv St and provide something moderately sensible in terms of headways at Lea Bridge and into / out of Stratford.

I would actually prefer it to run as a basic shuttle. I wouldn't want to see interworking with the NLL service as I think it would be a step too far. The NLL service is already a tad wobbly in the peaks because of the sheer volume of passengers. I think there is considerable merit, in terms of dwell time and passenger management, in having the service terminate at Stratford. I can't see the merit in making a Richmond - Willesden - Camden Rd - Stratford - Walthamstow - Chingford service.

I'm sceptical about how much cross Stratford demand there would be for a Chingford - NLL service. There'd be plenty of demand from stations in Waltham Forest to Stratford itself but even then there is a paucity of stations in the right place north of Walthamstow Central [1] and a rail link would not mop up the massive demand there is through Leyton and there's no real scope, because of the Eurostar depot / Temple Mills siding to try to provide a station there either. In transport terms there is a bit of a dilemma - you probably wouldn't be able to reduce bus services too much on the Chingford - W'stow - Leyton - Stratford corridor but you probably would get a decent enough flow from Wood St, Walthamstow Central and St James St to Lea Bridge and Stratford. I suspect the planners are hoping that people will travel via T Hale using the tube and STAR (once complete) thus avoiding the need to reinstate the Hall Lane curve.

[1] a personal wish of mine would be new stations at Forest Road (between Wood St and Highams Park) and at Chingford Hatch (between Highams Park and Chingford). Both have decent hinterlands of housing and bus links to allow people to feed in to new stations. I also think the new stops would create new local travel demand which would relieve some bus services. Unfortunately no politician bidding to be Mayor has a clear policy of adding stations to the existing London rail network [2]. The fact we're getting Lea Bridge reinstated is only down to local political pressure and not part of a wider transport strategy.

[2] unless part of a mega project like Crossrail and even then it's rare.

 

[Bald Rick]

I think a projection of LO from Stratford would be really, really useful. 4tph up the WAML and 4tph to Chingford seems a nice fit, and fitting in the freight around that 8tph will give you near enough the exact same problems we see on the LO core between Camden and Dalston, abet slightly reduced as there would only be one station - Lea Bridge, so even if you couldn't manage a full 4-tracking, then loops there to let freight sail past stopped LO trains make sense.

What freight? There's less than a train an hour each way on average in the bulk of the day. In any event to get a freight past a stopped passenger train would mean at least a 6-8 minute station call. Not exactly good for Journey times.

Also to get more trains up the Chingford line needs Highams Park Level Crossing to be closed.

 

[Bald Rick]

Not quite sure why Coppermill Jn would be a constraint for a Stratford to Chingford via Hall Farm curve service.

It was in the context of them going up the Lea Valley.

 

[Busaholic]

[1] a personal wish of mine would be new stations at Forest Road (between Wood St and Highams Park) and at Chingford Hatch (between Highams Park and Chingford). Both have decent hinterlands of housing and bus links to allow people to feed in to new stations. I also think the new stops would create new local travel demand which would relieve some bus services. Unfortunately no politician bidding to be Mayor has a clear policy of adding stations to the existing London rail network [2]. .

How about a branch of the Central Line from Leytonstone to those places, via Whipps Cross (for the hospital). Epping/Loughton don't need all those trains besides which they're not in London anyway!

 

[Class 170101]

How about a branch of the Central Line from Leytonstone to those places, via Whipps Cross (for the hospital). Epping/Loughton don't need all those trains besides which they're not in London anyway!

No because you will dilute the service to Epping and Hainault branches.