Leagrave - London Zones 1-6 split ticketing

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lightbulb

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Hello All,

Two adults and two children (aged 7 and 9) wish to travel in June between Leagrave and London Zones 1-6, leaving at 0929, and returning during the evening peak. One adult has a Central Bedfordshire-issued English National Travel Concessionary pass, which gives 50% discount between Leagrave and Elstree and Borehamwood, and also a Senior Railcard. The other adult, and the two children have no passes, oyster cards, or railcards.

The cheapest option seems to be a Leagrave to Boundary Zone 6 CDR, one at 50% discount, and a separate Zones 1-6 Travelcard, one with a Senior Railcard discount. This will be a total of £61.20. The question is, will this combination of tickets be valid to return between 1629 ans 1902 from St Pancras? The conditions for each of the tickets indicate they will, but I'm concerned that an RPI might think that the combination has the same validity as the Leagrave - London Zones 1-6 Travelcard, which prohibits travel from any London station in Zones 1-6, irrespective of where passengers board the train.

Can anyone please advise?
 
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Hadders

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It's valid but I suspect you'll need to be prepared to have a robust conversation with staff.
 

sonic2009

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As Hadders has already said it's definality valid, if staff do challenge you expect them not to possibly understand, if you do have any problems then do not estimate to come back to the forum we will be happy to help in providing a response to send to GTR.
 

Bletchleyite

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I'm going to counter this by saying that my view is that a BZ6 plus Travelcard combo equals the relevant out boundary Travelcard and thus is not valid. You would need a Condition 19 split (and thus a train stopping at the changeover station) to retain validity.


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Romilly

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I'm going to counter this by saying that my view is that a BZ6 plus Travelcard combo equals the relevant out boundary Travelcard and thus is not valid. You would need a Condition 19 split (and thus a train stopping at the changeover station) to retain validity.

I don't want to enter the debate about whether Neil is or is not correct in his view, but if he might be correct one solution would be to buy Leagrave to Elstree & Borehamwood offpeak day returns, and also Zone 1 to 6 travelcards, and travel on trains that call at Elstree & Borehamwood. Those offpeak day returns have the same lack of evening return restrictions as the Leagrave to BZ6 tickets. Edit: and the 1750 and 1854 departures from St Pancras call at Elstree and Leagrave, so no changes required in those cases.
 
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Hadders

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I'm going to counter this by saying that my view is that a BZ6 plus Travelcard combo equals the relevant out boundary Travelcard and thus is not valid. You would need a Condition 19 split (and thus a train stopping at the changeover station) to retain validity.


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Say I have a Stevenage to London Zones 1-6 Off Peak Day Travelcard and wish to travel to Reading. The appropriate additional ticket would be a Boundary Zone 6 to Reading (via Slough) Off Peak Day Return.

What restrictions apply from Paddington to Reading and vv?
 

causton

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Surely you just look at the restrictions of both tickets.

So you would see the Travelcard, which would allow usage at arrival in London after 1000 and only restrictions if leaving to head back to Stevenage.

Then look at the restriction of the BZ6 - Reading single, which is:

"APPLICABLE DAYS

Mondays to Fridays

OUTWARD/RETURN TRAVEL

Not valid on trains timed to
depart after 04:29 and before
09:30.except on the 08:40
EASEMENTS

Also permitted for travel on
the 08:40 Swindon (Wilts) to
Cheltenham Spa"

So it would be valid on any train in the evening and not be subject to the normal evening peak restrictions surely? Or am I missing something?

(as this is what I have been told to do when I spent one day at Euston, e.g. if someone has an Off-Peak Day Travelcard and wishes to return in the peak, sell them a BZ6 - destination Off-Peak Day Single which does not have an evening restriction in the restriction code)
 

furlong

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I'm going to counter this by saying that my view is that a BZ6 plus Travelcard combo equals the relevant out boundary Travelcard and thus is not valid. You would need a Condition 19 split (and thus a train stopping at the changeover station) to retain validity.

All that counts is the contract actually purchased - not some notional "equivalent" one.

The pure travelcard has its own validity (covered by the Travelcard Agreement) up to the station at the boundary of zone 6. The Leagrave-BZ6 supplement (covered by the TSA) carries its own restriction code (TS) which applies to travel between the boundary station and Leagrave. If the company had chosen to apply the same or similar code as an out-boundary travelcard (LS), no doubt it could have done so (like some other train companies do) - but it hasn't. (Any restrictions for an out-boundary travelcard similarly only appliy for the portion of the journey covered by the TSA viz. between the origin and the boundary station.)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Surely you just look at the restrictions of both tickets.

Indeed.

So it would be valid on any train in the evening and not be subject to the normal evening peak restrictions surely? Or am I missing something?

I agree. Evening peak travel within the zones is already paid for within the travelcard.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
For another example look at Waterloo with code BE e.g. from Guildford. The travelcard and the BZ6 ticket have the same restriction:

Return Travel

Boarding at the stations
listed below, to any station
outside London Fares_Zones 1-6
not valid on trains timed to
depart:

London Terminals (except
Paddington or Vauxhall see
below) before 11:00or after
15:59 until 19:01;
...

Notice how it makes it clear that only travel outside the zones is restricted.
 
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RJ

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As Hadders has already said it's definality valid, if staff do challenge you expect them not to possibly understand, if you do have any problems then do not estimate to come back to the forum we will be happy to help in providing a response to send to GTR.

Only you're corroborating wrong information yourself. The 50% ENCTS discount isn't valid until 10:00 (so no good for the OP's plans) and can't be used with tickets to Boundary Zone 6 - only to a named station, such as Elstree and Borehamwood which the 0929 train doesn't stop at. These points are very clearly stated on National Rail Enquiries so what would you be proposing to respond to GTR with if they did pick up on it?
 
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yorkie

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I'm going to counter this by saying that my view is that a BZ6 plus Travelcard combo equals the relevant out boundary Travelcard and thus is not valid. You would need a Condition 19 split (and thus a train stopping at the changeover station) to retain validity.
Is this in any way based on any facts or evidence, or simply made up?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Only you're corroborating wrong information yourself. The 50% ENCTS discount isn't valid until 10:00 (so no good for the OP's plans) and can't be used with tickets to Boundary Zone 6 - only to a named station, such as Elstree and Borehamwood which the 0929 train doesn't stop at. These points are very clearly stated on National Rail Enquires so what would you be proposing to respond to GTR with if they did pick up on it?
This is correct.

http://www.hertsdirect.org/docs/pdf/f/freebuspassfaqs.pdf

First Capital Connect Concessionary Fares Scheme

Hertfordshire

Holders of Hertfordshire bus passes may obtain a 50% discount on rail fares for travel wholly in Bedfordshire and / or Hertfordshire on the routes shown below. This applies after 10:00 Mondays to Fridays and all day on Saturdays, Sundays and Bank Holidays.

Terms and Conditions

  1. Discounted travel is valid on First Capital Connect services only, between any pair of stations on the following routes:

    On the Thameslink route between Bedford and Elstree & Borehamwood (and intermediate stations)

    On the Great Northern route between:

    • Sandy / Royston and Hadley Wood (and intermediate stations)
    • Sandy / Royston and Crews Hill (and intermediate stations)
  2. Tickets with this discount may be purchased from any staffed ticket office (or from ticket vending machines by purchasing a CHILD ticket). They are not available on-line.
  3. The person using the ticket must carry their valid Concessionary Bus Pass with them throughout the journey and must show it on demand.
  4. A discounted ticket to Elstree & Borehamwood / Hadley Wood / Crews Hill may be combined with an undiscounted ticket (including a Travelcard) from those stations. However, the train must stop at Elstree & Borehamwood / Hadley Wood / Crews Hill for such a combination of tickets to be valid.
A combination of tickets is not valid on fast trains which do not stop at Elstree & Borehamwood / Hadley Wood / Crews Hill. £2.00 accompanied child flat fare tickets are valid with these fares.
Of course trains formerly operated by FCC are now operated by GTR.

The adult with the concessionary pass & Railcard can either get a 50% discount Elstree specifically, or a 34% discount to BZ6 to get fast trains.

The contract is as written.

There is no need to go looking at the terms of tickets not held to invent new terms of a contract! I am no expert in contract law (I'll leave that to Furlong!) but that's bloomin' obvious!
 

RJ

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Hello All,

Two adults and two children (aged 7 and 9) wish to travel in June between Leagrave and London Zones 1-6, leaving at 0929, and returning during the evening peak. One adult has a Central Bedfordshire-issued English National Travel Concessionary pass, which gives 50% discount between Leagrave and Elstree and Borehamwood, and also a Senior Railcard. The other adult, and the two children have no passes, oyster cards, or railcards.

The cheapest option seems to be a Leagrave to Boundary Zone 6 CDR, one at 50% discount, and a separate Zones 1-6 Travelcard, one with a Senior Railcard discount. This will be a total of £61.20. The question is, will this combination of tickets be valid to return between 1629 ans 1902 from St Pancras? The conditions for each of the tickets indicate they will, but I'm concerned that an RPI might think that the combination has the same validity as the Leagrave - London Zones 1-6 Travelcard, which prohibits travel from any London station in Zones 1-6, irrespective of where passengers board the train.

Can anyone please advise?

Unfortunately the ENCTS discount isn't much use, unless you're willing to delay the journey until after 10am and change trains to one that stops at Elstree! I'd advise foregoing the discount in favour of the Senior Railcard discount.

Will you be using any National Rail services in London other than Thameslink? Children under the age of 11 travel free on TfL modes of transport (Underground, DLR, buses etc.) so they might not need a Travelcard.

You could buy the following;

1*Adult Off Peak Day Return from Leagrave to Boundary Zone 6 @ £11.70
1*Adult London Zones 1-6 Off Peak Day Travelcard @ £12.00

1*Senior Railcard discounted Off Peak Day Return from Leagrave to Boundary Zone 6 @ £7.75
1*Senior Railcard discounted London Zones 1-6 Off Peak Day Travelcard @ £8.00

2*Accompanied Child returns from Leagrave to St Pancras @ £2.00 each - total £4.00.

That's £43.45 in total and those tickets are all valid to travel by any train after 09:30 (0929 from Leagrave) - no evening peak or slow train restrictions apply to any of them. If you do need other National Rail services in London, do reply and I'll come up with something else.
 
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sonic2009

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RJ I stand corrected I did not see the OP had the 50% Discount ENCTS.
 

lightbulb

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Unfortunately the ENCTS discount isn't much use, unless you're willing to delay the journey until after 10am and change trains to one that stops at Elstree! I'd advise foregoing the discount in favour of the Senior Railcard discount.

Will you be using any National Rail services in London other than Thameslink? Children under the age of 11 travel free on TfL modes of transport (Underground, DLR, buses etc.) so they might not need a Travelcard.

You could buy the following;

1*Adult Off Peak Day Return from Leagrave to Boundary Zone 6 @ £11.70
1*Adult London Zones 1-6 Off Peak Day Travelcard @ £12.00

1*Senior Railcard discounted Off Peak Day Return from Leagrave to Boundary Zone 6 @ £7.75
1*Senior Railcard discounted London Zones 1-6 Off Peak Day Travelcard @ £8.00

2*Accompanied Child returns from Leagrave to St Pancras @ £2.00 each - total £4.00.

That's £43.45 in total and those tickets are all valid to travel by any train after 09:30 (0929 from Leagrave) - no evening peak or slow train restrictions apply to any of them. If you do need other National Rail services in London, do reply and I'll come up with something else.

Thanks, RJ. Yes, travel will be required on other National Rail services in London, likely to be between Greenwich and Charing Cross. A trip on the Emirates Air Line is also planned.
 
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