Least frequent service that sets a Shortest Route?

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HowMuch?

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I know there is no definition of how "regular" a service has to be to define a shortest route.

But in practice, what are the least regular services that actually DO set shortest routes?

And does anyone have a preferred route which would become Permitted if an unusably infrequent service were withdrawn?
 
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wintonian

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I know there is no definition of how "regular" a service has to be to define a shortest route.

But in practice, what are the least regular services that actually DO set shortest routes?

And does anyone have a preferred route which would become Permitted if an unusably infrequent service were withdrawn?

In answer to your first question any line that is used only by a parlimentry service I would think, so Morcombe to Heysham Port for example though not the best example or the bit of track served only by the Wandsworth Road to Kensington Olympia service

I expext 'regular passenger service' means anything with at least 1 train a week.
 
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D841 Roebuck

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Stockport to Stalybridge is probably the winner.

If a service has to be daily, then Bare Lane to Carnforth or Sheerness to Newington.
 

John @ home

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Stockport to Stalybridge is probably the winner.
I don't think it is. The line does not appear on any Routeing Guide Maps, and the booking engines appear to allow travel by an alternative route whenever a journey would normally have its shortest route defined using that line.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
in practice, what are the least regular services that actually DO set shortest routes?
There is no definition in the rules. The National Routeing Guide Data Feed Specification also devolves to each individual external system the magnitude of the "margin of error" in the measurement of distances between stations. This devolution makes it impossible to have a uniform definition of the shortest route.
NRG Data Feed Specification p.17 said:
STATION LINKS file

These records define the distances between the stations ...

the Rail Journey Information Service (RJIS) system allows a “margin of error” which is used by the routing guide software as necessary. It is assumed that external systems will apply their own margin of error.

http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/RSPS5002 sp0037_12.pdf
 

hairyhandedfool

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I don't think it is. The line does not appear on any Routeing Guide Maps....

The shortest route:

1) Applies before the Routeing Guide is consulted.

2) is measured along lines over which a scheduled passenger service operates.

....and the booking engines appear to allow travel by an alternative route whenever a journey would normally have its shortest route defined using that line....

If the route is not the shortest, by a direct train or allowed by the mapped routes, an easement may permit it.
 

cuccir

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I suppose we could only determine this for sure is if someone could be bothered to:

1. Determine all the journeys for which travelling via Stalybridge-Stockport would be the shortest route
2. Find any situations for these journeys where the second shortest route is not valid in the roueting guide (and is not within 3 miles of the shortest route)
3. Look at the journey planners/travel the routes and see if the tickets are valid/accepted!

In practice, I think it is very very unlikely that anyone would ever encounter trouble for travelling on the shortest route possible on that railway day, if the route were not otherwise valid. It wouldn't take a customer service/PR genius to recognise that the response "sorry, this ticket is not valid today because you can travel by a shorter route in three days time" is not going to be well received! I suppose the problems might start to emerge for shortest routes which are only possible once or twice a day...[edit]... and only then where there is another alternative route which has a more frequent service, and which is not otherwise valid...
 
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hairyhandedfool

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....I suppose the problems might start to emerge for shortest routes which are only possible once or twice a day...[edit]... and only then where there is another alternative route which has a more frequent service, and which is not otherwise valid....

Try Wigan-Patricroft.

Shortest Route: Wigan-Newton le Willows-Patricroft (apparently)

Service level:
Newton le Willows-Patricroft = Hourly SuX
Wigan-Newton le Willows = 2tpd SuX

Direct Trains: None

Mapped Routes: None (share a common Routeing Point Group)

Easements: None

It is worth noting that Patricroft-Wigan produces no valid routes on Fastis and NRES, despite both stations having an hourly (or better) service to and from Manchester Victoria and Huyton, and a potential connection via Warrington (all SuX).
 
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HowMuch?

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I suppose we could only determine this for sure is if someone could be bothered to:

In practice, I think it is very very unlikely that anyone would ever encounter trouble for travelling on the shortest route possible on that railway day, if the route were not otherwise valid. It wouldn't take a customer service/PR genius to recognise that the response "sorry, this ticket is not valid today because you can travel by a shorter route in three days time" is not going to be well received! I suppose the problems might start to emerge for shortest routes which are only possible once or twice a day...[edit]... and only then where there is another alternative route which has a more frequent service, and which is not otherwise valid...

You've answered a very good question I didn't think to ask. It would indeed make a good talking point if you were told that. It would be bizare, but we have heard of worse !

It's reassuring that everyone's answer has been theoretical rather than from experience. I was expecting at least one person to come back gnashing their teeth over a real case where they have to buy two tickets to use a "reasonable" route because a "daft special" made the reasonable route nonpermitted.
 

clagmonster

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I think it would have to be Denton, as for a journey to Denton involving common routeing points (let's say Woodsmoor-Denton), as there are no direct services, the only valid route would be the shortest route. How we are supposed to calculate this shortest route (I know in this case it is obvious), I don't know, as the distance does not appear in the NRT.
 

34D

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I suppose we could only determine this for sure is if someone could be bothered to:

1. Determine all the journeys for which travelling via Stalybridge-Stockport would be the shortest route
2. Find any situations for these journeys where the second shortest route is not valid in the roueting guide (and is not within 3 miles of the shortest route)
3. Look at the journey planners/travel the routes and see if the tickets are valid/accepted!

Your step three (while sensible, and perhaps indicative) is most certainly not authoritative.

In practice, I think it is very very unlikely that anyone would ever encounter trouble for travelling on the shortest route possible on that railway day, if the route were not otherwise valid.

This seems sensible to me. Though opinions and sensibilities have nothing to do with railway byelaws.

A contrary rationale would be that Wigan-Patricroft is valid twice a day only - at any other time one either needs to wait, or travel via an alternative route with alternative tickets.

Of course, this isn't (necessarily) what an integrated system is about, however I don't think for one minute that the system is intended to allow a ludicrous journey at times when there isn't a direct one
 

cuccir

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Your step three (while sensible, and perhaps indicative) is most certainly not authoritative.

I agree with that to an extent, but of course where there is no precise wording/procedure in the routeing guide, then the only thing left is whether a ticket is accepted on the route.
 

Yew

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To further twist the story, what about Mansfield to Worksop. since no service runs between the two on a Sunday, you would have to go via Nottingham, Newark then either Newark Northgate (for Retford) or Lincoln.

Bassetlaw Council run a bus service between Mansfield Woodhouse and Worksop, but Im not sure if its a real Rail replacement bus, it doesnt come up on journey planners
 

OwlMan

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To further twist the story, what about Mansfield to Worksop. since no service runs between the two on a Sunday, you would have to go via Nottingham, Newark then either Newark Northgate (for Retford) or Lincoln.........

Or wait until Monday morning (which is probably the official answer you must adjust your travel wishes to fit in with the timetable)


Peter
 
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