Least improved line

[Scott M]

Type Valley line aka Pacer city.

 

[Iskra]

Type Valley line aka Pacer city.

It's not though is it, you're exaggerating. Quite a few 156's appear, which are considered decent quality units by Northern standards.

There are lines which turn up much higher proportions of pacers.

 

[yorksrob]

It's not though is it, you're exaggerating. Quite a few 156's appear, which are considered decent quality units by Northern standards.

There are lines which turn up much higher proportions of pacers.

Yes, but for that distance, there ought to be no single pacer trains on that line.

 

[HowardGWR]

I did a search and couldn't see anything similar so apologies if there has been one. Currently in the north yorks moors and went to Whitby on the nymr. The Northern service to m'boro seems to be terrible. With so many service improvements over the last 10 to 15 years, is this line one of the few that has seen little ir no improvement? One other I can think if is the Newquay line.

I've gone back to the OP and I can find nothing in the ensuing correspondence that beats that one. I add that the real omission of improvement is, that with the creation of the heritage only NYMR, there is a block on getting decent railway services to Whitby, from Malton (and thus from York). (Ducking for cover).

 

[61653 HTAFC]

It's not though is it, you're exaggerating. Quite a few 156's appear, which are considered decent quality units by Northern standards.

There are lines which turn up much higher proportions of pacers.

Yes, but for that distance, there ought to be no single pacer trains on that line.

Before long, there won't be. Northern Connect 158s will be the norm by mid-2019 if not sooner. Not sure if all services will be Connect but even those that aren't will be 150s or 156s.

As far as a lack of improvement is concerned, the Penistone line hasn't seen much. Some of the gaps in evenings have been plugged and under the new franchise the Sunday service is set to go hourly at some point, but it is still very much a Pacer stronghold. In fact more so today than it was a few years back when 158s put in regular appearances. Admittedly many of the journeys are to intermediate stops rather than end to end, but I can't think of many lines where the poor service has had such an impact on suppressing demand. Actually improving the service would require investment in platform extensions and/or additional loops/redoubling so it isn't an easy fix though. Once the pacers go I'd expect 150s to become the standard which will be a drop in capacity compared to a 3-car 144 once disabled toilets have been fitted. 3-car 150s (AIUI Northern will have a few) would be an improvement but that won't be possible until the dedicated platform (2) at Huddersfield is extended which won't happen until P1 is extended to compensate for the length it'll lose at the West end.

Ideally an extra loop would be built at Lockwood or Honley to allow 2tph (possibly one being a semi-fast) but I can't see that happening anytime soon.

 

[yorksrob]

Before long, there won't be. Northern Connect 158s will be the norm by mid-2019 if not sooner. Not sure if all services will be Connect but even those that aren't will be 150s or 156s.

As far as a lack of improvement is concerned, the Penistone line hasn't seen much. Some of the gaps in evenings have been plugged and under the new franchise the Sunday service is set to go hourly at some point, but it is still very much a Pacer stronghold. In fact more so today than it was a few years back when 158s put in regular appearances. Admittedly many of the journeys are to intermediate stops rather than end to end, but I can't think of many lines where the poor service has had such an impact on suppressing demand. Actually improving the service would require investment in platform extensions and/or additional loops/redoubling so it isn't an easy fix though. Once the pacers go I'd expect 150s to become the standard which will be a drop in capacity compared to a 3-car 144 once disabled toilets have been fitted. 3-car 150s (AIUI Northern will have a few) would be an improvement but that won't be possible until the dedicated platform (2) at Huddersfield is extended which won't happen until P1 is extended to compensate for the length it'll lose at the West end.

Ideally an extra loop would be built at Lockwood or Honley to allow 2tph (possibly one being a semi-fast) but I can't see that happening anytime soon.

The Whitby Branch definately.

Also Knottingley - Goole and Gainsborough - Barnetby as well.

In terms of Penistone, it has had the innovative music trains and cask ale buffet service introduced

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The Whitby Branch definately.

Also Knottingley - Goole and Gainsborough - Barnetby as well.

In terms of Penistone, it has had the innovative music trains and cask ale buffet service introduced

Not much intermediate custom potential between Knottingley and Goole, nor between Nunthorpe and Whitby, but I agree that even 1tp2h on both those routes would make the farebox revenue look more healthy. The problems with the Penistone line are largely down to 1980s penny-pinching (singling Clayton West Junction to Springwood Junction after the Clayton West branch was closed) and a lack of co-operation between the West and South Yorkshire ITAs (With Rail North and Northern Powerhouse Rail coming, perhaps they could be merged?). The music and ale trains have been a success but each one is only once a month. There's hugely suppressed demand to both ends from the intermediate stations most of which have quite large populations nearby, as well as people from Huddersfield choosing to drive to Meadowhall rather than spend 90 minutes on a Pacer to cover a distance of about 24 miles as the crow flies.

 

[yorksrob]

Not much intermediate custom potential between Knottingley and Goole, nor between Nunthorpe and Whitby, but I agree that even 1tp2h on both those routes would make the farebox revenue look more healthy. The problems with the Penistone line are largely down to 1980s penny-pinching (singling Clayton West Junction to Springwood Junction after the Clayton West branch was closed) and a lack of co-operation between the West and South Yorkshire ITAs (With Rail North and Northern Powerhouse Rail coming, perhaps they could be merged?). The music and ale trains have been a success but each one is only once a month. There's hugely suppressed demand to both ends from the intermediate stations most of which have quite large populations nearby, as well as people from Huddersfield choosing to drive to Meadowhall rather than spend 90 minutes on a Pacer to cover a distance of about 24 miles as the crow flies.

Yes, 1tp2h would be a marked improvement on both of them. The settlements between Knottingley and Goole are small but very conveniently sited for the stations, so I do think potential demand from them is underrated.

 

[joshy.fre_2003]

Like how most of the lines discussed are in the north... Sigh

 

[Clansman]

Arbroath to Stonehaven, rough as hell and not even duelled between Usan and Montrose.

 

[urbophile]

I've gone back to the OP and I can find nothing in the ensuing correspondence that beats that one. I add that the real omission of improvement is, that with the creation of the heritage only NYMR, there is a block on getting decent railway services to Whitby, from Malton (and thus from York). (Ducking for cover).

I can imagine all sorts of legal and other reasons why not, but have there been any initiatives in trying to restore 'normal' train services on such lines even if they continue to function mainly as heritage and volunteer run railways? The NYMR can't be the only one that could function as part of a useful though route.

 

[arabianights]

I can imagine all sorts of legal and other reasons why not, but have there been any initiatives in trying to restore 'normal' train services on such lines even if they continue to function mainly as heritage and volunteer run railways? The NYMR can't be the only one that could function as part of a useful though route.

The Dartmoor Railway takes GWR services on Saturdays in Summer, I believe there are on/off freight trains on the Weardale line from Bishop Auckland too.

 

[PHILIPE]

The Dartmoor Railway takes GWR services on Saturdays in Summer, I believe there are on/off freight trains on the Weardale line from Bishop Auckland too.

Dartmoor Railway GWR services run on a Sunday not Saturdays. They run between St James Park and Okehampton.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Like how most of the lines discussed are in the north... Sigh

Well in the interest of balance, the Newquay branch could do with some improvement. The other Cornish branches are in a pretty healthy state (though there's obviously more of a business case for the improvents to Falmouth with the university and all) but Par to Newquay has rather fallen behind. A passing loop and a fleet of 3-4 class 230s would make a big difference. They could even be maintained at the conveniently sited St. Blazey depot.

 

[talltim]

Channel tunnel shuttle services. Same stock, same services and more disruption in the past few years.

 

[Welly]

I think the reference to 141s must've been a typo, as they were withdrawn by BR prior to privatisation. Additionally I didn't think they'd ever worked into Lincolnshire on a regular basis. They were horrible things but they had character!

Some did work in Lincolnshire in 1996 and 1997 (after privatisation) I recall riding 141113 from Gainsborough after photographing a crude oil train departing from there. It was the last time I rode one of those things (shudder)

 

[G0ORC]

I would propose Crewe to Derby for this mark of distinction. Used to be Crewe to Nottingham (or at one time Skegness,a lot further) used to be 3-car classic DMUs then 2-car, now single 153s all day unless it's Uttoxeter races on a Saturday, weekdays no spare stock available. I used to go somewhere else or take leave on those days.

It was Crewe - Lincoln (St. Marks then Central) before the Skegness idea was thought of.

 

[krus_aragon]

A couple of miles of track between Heswall and Upton had its speed limit increased from 50mph to 55mph a while back. There have also been improvements to the station facilities. There are fewer services than in 1982 according to 2d53, but I don't know what the pattern was in 1997. I don't know what stock was used then, either.

Some images on Penmorfa's pages on the Borderlands line show:

• Class 108s in use until their withdrawal in 1993
• Class 153s in 1993, 2005
• Class 142s in use in 1993, 1995 and in 1998 (first used on the line in 1985)
• Class 101s in use in 1992, 1993, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001

 

[ashworth]

It was Crewe - Lincoln (St. Marks then Central) before the Skegness idea was thought of.

Yes it was Crewe - Lincoln. I used it regularly for 3 years in the mid 1970's to travel from Lowdham on the Nottingham to Lincoln line to college in Derby.
So many on here talk about Crewe to Skegness as if that was always the route, but actually that only ran for a very short time in comparison to Crewe - Lincoln.

I do think that an hourly Crewe-Stoke-Derby-Nottingham-Lincoln and perhaps even to Cleethorpes would be a good service to restore. This would greatly improve journey opportunities from Lincoln with connections at Derby and would also restore a through route from Nottingham to Crewe for connections to the WCML and North Wales.

 

[krus_aragon]

Channel tunnel shuttle services. Same stock, same services and more disruption in the past few years.

Now there's a line I'd never have though of... I suppose you're right, though.

 

[DerekC]

Channel tunnel shuttle services. Same stock, same services and more disruption in the past few years.

Hmm - but work out the money spent on stock and infrastructure to upgrade the service in (say) the past 20 years and I think it's a "most improved route"! Now what about the Waterloo & City Line?

 

[sprinterguy]

Some did work in Lincolnshire in 1996 and 1997 (after privatisation)

The Regional Railways North East Train Operating Unit wasn't privatised until April 1997.

 

[Alfie1014]

I'll throw in the Clacton (the Sunshine) Line. Admittedly the peak service is probably better than at the time of electrification but the off-peak service is worse than in the 1960s. The trains are not better either, main-line stock with Griddle Cars (anyone remember the Steak sandwiches?) replaced by outer-suburban stock with 3+2 seating, the newest 360/1s with only one toilet. Journey times are also slower too, mostly as a result of extra stops, especially so on Sundays but then all services on the GEML on Sundays are slow not least because of the two track reilaway between Liv St and Shenfield.

Is there any other line in the former NSE area to a resort (includes the whole of the Tendering area) that only has direct 1 tph to London these days? Kings Lynn is the only other and here there are plans for 2 tph (admittedly delayed at the moment). Even Weymouth gets 2 tph and it's nearly twice as far! One wonders if the fact that the area also includes the most deprived parish in England outside of a metropolitan area and the poor train service are somewhat connected?

 

[HowardGWR]

Is there any other line in the former NSE area to a resort (includes the whole of the Tendring area) that only has direct 1 tph to London these days?

Exeter Central to Waterloo? Well, it's on the Exe. Depends what you mean by 'resort'. Tourists go there.

 

[cactustwirly]

Yes, 1tp2h would be a marked improvement on both of them. The settlements between Knottingley and Goole are small but very conveniently sited for the stations, so I do think potential demand from them is underrated.

I think the best solution is to run a fast train to Leeds perhaps at 10am and returning at 3pm, to attract potential shoppers from Goole, Snaith and other settlements. It then could be routed via Wakefield to save time, or act as an extension to the Leeds-Wakefield-Knottingley service. If this service is successful then it could be expanded, but it is only likely to happen when Northern get more stock

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I think the best solution is to run a fast train to Leeds perhaps at 10am and returning at 3pm, to attract potential shoppers from Goole, Snaith and other settlements. It then could be routed via Wakefield to save time, or act as an extension to the Leeds-Wakefield-Knottingley service. If this service is successful then it could be expanded, but it is only likely to happen when Northern get more stock

I'm not sure going via Wakey would save much time, it's the Casvegas reversal that slows it down but running fast via Glasshoughton and Altofts would be better. The curve in Wakefield between the two stations is going to become a real pinch point with the extra services going that way (I understand it'll increase to 2tph at some point).

 

[cactustwirly]

I'm not sure going via Wakey would save much time, it's the Casvegas reversal that slows it down but running fast via Glasshoughton and Altofts would be better. The curve in Wakefield between the two stations is going to become a real pinch point with the extra services going that way (I understand it'll increase to 2tph at some point).

Going via Wakefield avoids Castleford, hence the time saving. Going via altofts is so long you may as well go via Castleford.

Having looked at this service which goes via Altofts: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y92606/2016/04/11/advanced

and this via Castleford: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y90754/2016/04/11/advanced

The journey time from Leeds to Knottingley is almost the same.