Least successful production chassis

[Statto]

The Dennis Javelin was a useful replacement for the Bedford Y series and probably the Ford R series which went out of production in the early to mid 1980s and were used by many private hire operators. Two local firms here, Maynes of Buckie and Keir of Dufftown, switched to the Javelin for a time.

The Lancet wasn't a particularly big seller, with only 87 produced. I rather liked the six we had with their Perkins V8s.

I remember the Lancet, Merseyside PTE brought 10[7021 to 7030] of the type, all fitted with duel purpose seats, think they had tachographs fitted too.

 

[A0wen]

I think you have to define 'unsuccessful' - was it a low production run, or was it a short service life or was it both ?

Obvious contenders such as the Wulfrunian and Roadliner have been mentioned.

Unmentioned are some of the Seddon's - Crosville had a batch which had a particularly short life, which were withdrawn early and their Gardner engines found their way into Crosville's Nationals.

MCW's Metropolitan might also be considered - tended to suffer from corrosion which led to premature withdrawl and scrapping.

 

[Jordan Adam]

Speaking of Javelins, is 27057 still knocking about at Stagecoach? Absolute beast of a ZF!

Sadly not, it was scrapped back in 2017.

Stagecoach 27057 YX05FEK is seen from the rear at Seafield Road bus depot, Inverness

13 May 2017

www.flickr.com

You could hear that thing pulling away in Inverness from Aberdeen.

 

[carlberry]

Unmentioned are some of the Seddon's - Crosville had a batch which had a particularly short life, which were withdrawn early and their Gardner engines found their way into Crosville's Nationals.

This was a case where the engine almost had a greater value after the bus had been removed from around it then the bus did as a working unit!

 

[cnjb8]

If 'limited range of purchasers' becomes a criteria then the AEC Routemaster and the Borisbus suddenly become contenders.

The Borisbus was designed as a one off product for TfL (was the Routemaster specifically designed for London?). The B7L was designed for nationwide use

 

[CBlue]

My contender would be the Cannon 150BEL. Effectively a knockoff Enviro 200 and I believe only one was built.

 

[Jordan Adam]

My contender would be the Cannon 150BEL. Effectively a knockoff Enviro 200 and I believe only one was built.

There was another built, but with a custom front end design.

141D1929

Possibly unique (although there is rumoured to be another one somewhere!), this isn't a variant Enviro 200 but a Cannon Citybus LF (or '150BEL' as shown on the chassis plate). Built as a prototype by Cannon of Strabane in 2013 and registered in 2014 it seems to have spent several years in hiding...

www.flickr.com

I never really understood the point of it. It was basically a rebadged E200 with the rear design off an E300. Why would an operator buy those when they could just buy a E200...

 

[Busaholic]

The Borisbus was designed as a one off product for TfL (was the Routemaster specifically designed for London?). The B7L was designed for nationwide use

The Routemaster was most certainly a product developed by London Transport, under the watchful eye of Colin Curtis, but with input from AEC that had been London's preferred supplier of buses to their specification since the 1930s. Even so, AEC were licenced to sell similar buses to other bus fleets, and Northern General were impressed enough to buy a small fleet of forward entrance, longer Routemasters. By then, of course, conductors were becoming a luxury that many bus companies felt they could no longer afford, hence the development of Atlanteans and, a little later, Fleetlines, so it could be honestly said that the (expensive, but well-engineered) Routemaster was never going to take off elsewhere. However, secondhand RMs were successfully bought by quite a few operators, despite their venerable age. I cannot see this happening with the Borismaster, even if they were withdrawn today. Too long, with a superfluous staircase, apart from any other consideration.

 

[Eyersey468]

Depending on how unsuccessful is defined, the original Optare Excel is a contender IMO. Although quite a few were built, terrible build quality and reliability meant a lot of the early ones were sold by their original owners after only a few years service

 

[Taunton]

Arguably the Jensen JLP1
maximum of ten built in various versions
and those are the only bus chassis they built

history at https://www.jensenmuseum.org/jensen-light-passenger-coach-1948-1951/

I actually remember these, they ran with H&C (known to us as "Hot & Cold") from Taunton out to the villages to the south-east. Didn't know the buses were a rare type. As they still had quite a lot of commuter business from those places to Taunton in the early 1960s, one would be left all day in the pub car park on Staplegrove Road they used to use. The big "JNSN" radiator was a characteristic, though they ran other types as well, which to the uninitiated looked the same.

 

[DunsBus]

The Leyland Titan B15. An idea that looked good from the outset but which omitted one vital aspect: customer choice. The problems which befell it in the early years of production meant that penny numbers were sold outside of London.

 

[A0wen]

The Leyland Titan B15. An idea that looked good from the outset but which omitted one vital aspect: customer choice. The problems which befell it in the early years of production meant that penny numbers were sold outside of London.

That's a tricky one - the Titan actually had fairly good longevity both in and out of London when LT sold on some.

The lack of orders was exacerbated by production limits and delays - with LT hoovering up most of the production - shades of the Fleetline again ?

And where with the Fleetline it gave vehicles like the Ailsa and Atlantean an opportunity, with the Titan it gave the opportunity to the MCW Metrobus.

 

[MotCO]

The CVE Omni was a strange looking bus, but according to Wikipaedia, managed to sell around 400 models, the vast majority for non-PSV use.

Yes, it's an OMNI

Incredibly, Empress of Hastings still operate this CVE OMNI -seen heading out for schools this afternoon, 27th February 2019. H389 KPY will be celebrating its 30th birthday next year!

www.flickr.com

Much more rare was the stylish Bedford JJL. One pre-production and four production vehicles were produced.

Bedford JJL Maidstone too 1-7-79

The other side of the JJL. I wonder if any of the development team went onto work on the Dennis Dart.

www.flickr.com

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

That's a tricky one - the Titan actually had fairly good longevity both in and out of London when LT sold on some.

The lack of orders was exacerbated by production limits and delays - with LT hoovering up most of the production - shades of the Fleetline again ?

And where with the Fleetline it gave vehicles like the Ailsa and Atlantean an opportunity, with the Titan it gave the opportunity to the MCW Metrobus.

The Titan was remarkably well built and over-engineered. It was robust and as you say, it suffered with low productivity so LT got the main vehicles. However, with it being a Leyland/PRV only affair (to a highbridge design), it fundamentally ruled itself out of being the choice of:

• NBC - wanted something lowbridge and preferably with an ECW body
• SBG - wanted something preferably with an Alexander body
• West Midlands - hard to argue that they'd not have gone with the local MCW Metrobus anyway
• GM - probably would have gone with something that could accommodate an NCME body

So a few PTEs and municipals and even those may have wanted something with an Alexander (Scottish firms) or East Lancs (North West firms) rather than a PRV one.

 

[MotCO]

The Titan was remarkably well built and over-engineered. It was robust and as you say, it suffered with low productivity so LT got the main vehicles. However, with it being a Leyland/PRV only affair (to a highbridge design), it fundamentally ruled itself out of being the choice of:

• NBC - wanted something lowbridge and preferably with an ECW body
• SBG - wanted something preferably with an Alexander body
• West Midlands - hard to argue that they'd not have gone with the local MCW Metrobus anyway
• GM - probably would have gone with something that could accommodate an NCME body

So a few PTEs and municipals and even those may have wanted something with an Alexander (Scottish firms) or East Lancs (North West firms) rather than a PRV one.

But did the Titan sow the seeds for the Olympian, insofar as it shared certain parts but was a simplified version? In which case, the Titan should not be looked upon as a failure.

 

[DunsBus]

But did the Titan sow the seeds for the Olympian, insofar as it shared certain parts but was a simplified version? In which case, the Titan should not be looked upon as a failure.

I'd say that the Titan was a failure insofar as it never sold in the numbers that Leyland expected, for the reasons TGW mentions above, and many early orders - other than those for London - were either reduced or cancelled due to the low productivity in its early years. It was also a marketing failure as Leyland saw the all-singing, all-dancing (and all-highbridge) Titan as the bus which operators wanted to buy. Operators thought otherwise, hence why the Olympian was developed.

 

[MotCO]

I'd say that the Titan was a failure insofar as it never sold in the numbers that Leyland expected, for the reasons TGW mentions above, and many early orders - other than those for London - were either reduced or cancelled due to the low productivity in its early years. It was also a marketing failure as Leyland saw the all-singing, all-dancing (and all-highbridge) Titan as the bus which operators wanted to buy. Operators thought otherwise, hence why the Olympian was developed.

But 1,157 Titans were built, which is not an insubstantial number; indeed it was more than the number of Leyland Lynxes built (1060).

 

[DunsBus]

But 1,157 Titans were built, which is not an insubstantial number; indeed it was more than the number of Leyland Lynxes built (1060).

Not insubstantial, true, but it could and should have sold a lot more if Leyland hadn't been so complacent right at the start. Don't forget that London bought 1,125 Titans - very few were bought outside of London.

GM only got 15 Titans out of an order for 190 and WMPTE five Titans from an order for 80, in both cases due to low productivity.

 

[KendalKing]

Optare Alero could be a contender.

Possible the worst bus, I had the misfortune to drive.

 

[MotCO]

Not insubstantial, true, but it could and should have sold a lot more if Leyland hadn't been so complacent right at the start. Don't forget that London bought 1,125 Titans - very few were bought outside of London.

GM only got 15 Titans out of an order for 190 and WMPTE five Titans from an order for 80, in both cases due to low productivity.

Yes I agree, it didn't fulfil its full potential due both to low productivity, but also because it was probably over-engineered for operators outside London.

 

[Roilshead]

I'm with you on the Wulfrunian. Effectively it bankrupted the company. At least most, if not all, of the other examples mentioned still left the manufacturer in business.

Development of the Wulfrunian did not bankrupt Guy Motors. Guy Motors was driven into bankruptcy by the decision to take on direct supply of its chassis to South Africa from the two agents previously responsible . . . just before a boycott of the black/coloured township buses meant that many of the independent bus proprietors defaulted on hire-purchase agreements they had taken out with Guy Motors. The Wulfrunian saga certainly didn't add to the "bottom line", but it didn't bankrupt the company.

 

[mbonwick]

Speaking of Javelins, is 27057 still knocking about at Stagecoach? Absolute beast of a ZF!

Sadly not, was scrapped at least 3 years ago. Did well to last that long if we're honest!

 

[SouthEastBuses]

The Irisbus Agora Line, whilst quite successful in Mainland Europe, has failed to attract any significant orders in the UK. In fact, only 30 of them have been built, of which 3 of them for Carousel Buses in Oxfordshire (England). Apparently they have been known to be appallingly unreliable.

 

[Ploughman]

!950's East Lancs bodied Foden in Warrington.

Foden Bus

Warrington Corporation 112 is a Foden PVD/6 (OED 217) with an East Lancs body and built in 1956. It was the last Foden double-decker bus to be built and was later sold for preservation in 1972.

www.flickr.com

 

[37114]

The Irisbus Agora Line, whilst quite successful in Mainland Europe, has failed to attract any significant orders in the UK. In fact, only 30 of them have been built, of which 3 of them for Carousel Buses in Oxfordshire (England). Apparently they have been known to be appallingly unreliable.

Irisbus was a partnership between Renault and Iveco which based on my experience in the truck world would have been a marriage made in heaven to produce the most unreliable vehicle ever so it sounds like Itisbus carries that DNA well..

 

[deanmachine]

Compared to its predecessors, the B5TL hasn't been much of a success.

 

[busesrusuk]

Yes I agree, it didn't fulfil its full potential due both to low productivity, but also because it was probably over-engineered for operators outside London.

I think the Titan can be classed as a success. Its lengthy gestation period followed by production difficulties no doubt hurt sales and the less complex Olympian which could be bodied by others finally did it for the Titan. However, its long service life in London followed by lots of secondhand buyers suggests the bus itself was a decent, reliable vehicle.

 

[busesrusuk]

Another low volume bus was the Dennis Domino - only two customers GMPTE and SYPTE with a total production run of 34 buses.

 

[Westcountryman]

If 'limited range of purchasers' becomes a criteria then the AEC Routemaster and the Borisbus suddenly become contenders.

But the Routemaster doesn't have a chassis!

 

[delt1c]

I think you have to define 'unsuccessful' - was it a low production run, or was it a short service life or was it both ?

Obvious contenders such as the Wulfrunian and Roadliner have been mentioned.

Unmentioned are some of the Seddon's - Crosville had a batch which had a particularly short life, which were withdrawn early and their Gardner engines found their way into Crosville's Nationals.

MCW's Metropolitan might also be considered - tended to suffer from corrosion which led to premature withdrawl and scrapping.

I define unsuccessful as unreliable and a failure in service. Therefore very limited sales and early withdrawal of all examples. For this the Routemaster and Titan are far from unsuccessful. for rear engine examples the VRL. An interesting example was the VRT in Scotland very unsuccessful, but in England and Wales very succsesful why ?