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Leeds - Kings Cross via Peterborough, Ely, Cambridge and Harlow Town - permitted?

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43094

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Hello

Last Bank Holiday Monday, a friend of mine was using the outward portion of an anytime return Leeds - Milton Keynes ticket (valid via London), and travelled between Leeds and London via Peterborough, Ely, Cambridge and Harlow Town, stopping at Harlow Town to eat lunch with a friend.

Having looked at route allowability beforehand, he wasn't expecting any issues, and indeed, none of the on-train RPIs he encountered had any queries about it.

However, the barriers at Harlow Town were a different story altogether. The gateline person there was adament the ticket was off-route at that point, and also said even if it wasn't, outward travel had to be completed that day (this after asking my friend the reason for his travel, and if he subsequently intended resuming his journey at some point to travel onward to MK).

After a 10 minute discussion, my friend was allowed through. However on his return two hours later, the ticket was confiscated by the same person on the gateline, and my friend taken to the booking office and made to buy a further ticket to London before being allowed to resume travel and the original ticket (still being valid Euston - MK) being returned.

Was the route via Harlow Town permitted? If so, could my friend get a refund on the additional ticket he was made to purchase? Regarding the question of travel needing to be complete the same day, am I right in thinking travel can be made within 5 days for the outward portion in this case?
 
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sonic2009

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Please could you provide more information as to what ticket your friend was holding?
 

MikeWh

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Leeds to Milton Keynes are both routeing points and one of the map combinations is LONDON so it is unquestionably valid that way. Leeds to London on map ER appears to allow travel via Ely and Cambridge, BUT, for some reason the line that goes through those ends at Cheshunt. I'll defer to other experts, but my thinking is that that is an error and the ticket should be valid via Harlow.

On the other point, an anytime return is valid for 5 days on the out portion and 30 days on the return.
 

yorkie

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However, the barriers at Harlow Town were a different story altogether. The gateline person there was adament the ticket was off-route at that point, and also said even if it wasn't, outward travel had to be completed that day (this after asking my friend the reason for his travel, and if he subsequently intended resuming his journey at some point to travel onward to MK).
It's rare for gateline staff to be given thorough training.

If someone is not given appropriate training, and therefore unable to determine if a ticket is valid, they should not delcare a ticket invalid if they cannot be sure.

However this is the rail industry, so logic goes out of the window.

Needless to say, the gateline staff member in question is completely and utterly wrong.
After a 10 minute discussion, my friend was allowed through. However on his return two hours later, the ticket was confiscated by the same person on the gateline, and my friend taken to the booking office and made to buy a further ticket to London before being allowed to resume travel and the original ticket (still being valid Euston - MK) being returned.
I understand Greater Anglia have some gateline staff who dislike people going via Cambridge. A friend of a forum member in a similar position eventually got an apology from GA, and a refund, after numerous lengthy emails were exchanged. I will alert a friend of this forum member, as perhaps we can obtain a reference number and ask GA to re-consider their position on your friend's case.

If not, we need to escalate it to Passenger Focus.
 

34D

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Agree that Leeds-London (and beyond) tickets are valid via Cambridge. Please tell your friend to retain all paperwork, and do copies
 

43094

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Many thanks to all who've replied. Sonic2009 - It's my friend that has the ticket, so without it being in front of me, from what he said yesterday I'm 99% sure it's an Anytime Return between Leeds and Milton Keynes, which is valid via London (I.E not route-specifically via Manchester or anything like that.)

Would the fact that map ER wrongly? stops at Cheshunt complicate things in any way in terms of a potential response from GA?

I'll pass all the responses back to my friend and see how he feels regarding taking this further. When he spoke to me yesterday, he wasn't happy about the situation that occurred, or how it was dealt with at the time - however whether he'd want to a) complain to GA formally and b) then subsequently complain to Passenger Focus if required, I'm not sure. If it were me, I'd be writing to GA and taking it from there, as at least that way the staff concerned can receive any appropriate feedback - but it's his decision...!

To start with at least this confirms that he was right - which will mean that his confidence about the journey (and his interpretation of its validity) wasn't misplaced. I'll update as or when I find out what he wants to do.
 
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kieron

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Would the fact that map ER wrongly? stops at Cheshunt complicate things in any way in terms of a potential response from GA?
Possibly, especially combined with the fact that none of the journey planners list routes via Cambridge. On the other hand, ATOC's London Terminals Feed clearly lists the appropriate terminals for Leeds as being King's Cross, Liverpool Street, Moorgate, Old Street and St. Pancras.

The mapped routes to London in the current version of the guide only include routes via Finsbury Park or West Hampstead Thameslink. As such, I'm not sure which routes to Liverpool Street are actually permitted with this ticket.
 

clagmonster

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The National Routeing Guide instruction state:
"Please note, however,
that to be valid, any journey not undertaken on a through train or the shortest route MUST be
checked using the Journey Planner at www.nationalrail.co.uk, inputting the relevant interchange
and via points."
http://iblocks-rg-publication.s3-website-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/nrg_instructions.pdf

Inputting a Leeds-Milton Keynes Central via Harlow Town journey for this coming Monday, the National Rail journey planner says:
"You need to buy more than one ticket for this journey"
Thus by performing the check specified in the National Routeing Guide, this route would appear not to be permitted, thus an excess fare should have been charged. This should be:
"the
difference between the price paid for the ticket you hold and the price of the
lowest priced ticket(s) available at a ticket office for immediate travel that would
have entitled you to travel by that route."
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/static/documents/content/NRCOC.pdf
Quite how this is to be calculated I don't know.
 

bb21

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I think this may be a case for which a disputed routeing procedure may need to be launched if it cannot be resolved.

GA customer service in my experience are one of the most incompetent I have ever had the misfortune to deal with. They have never managed to get one single Delay Repay calculation correct for claims I have had to submit, and their denial about validity via Cambridge even after I pointed out the fact to them and explained the reasons why was laughable. They only agreed to refund the additional unnecessary fare after I threatened to report them to the DfT for breach of the TSA and terms of their franchise. Even the much maligned EMT customer service appear like the best thing since sliced bread in comparison.
 

clagmonster

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I agree that the disputed routeing procedure could be a way to go here, as it was previously a valid route until the new clause came into the routeing guide instructions. Failing that, I suppose a civil case could be attempted against one one of GA or ATOC on the basis of the change not having been approved by the secretary of state, if indeed it was not approved.
 

OwlMan

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I agree that the disputed routeing procedure could be a way to go here, as it was previously a valid route until the new clause came into the routeing guide instructions. Failing that, I suppose a civil case could be attempted against one one of GA or ATOC on the basis of the change not having been approved by the secretary of state, if indeed it was not approved.

It is nothing to do with the new clause - the reason is that Map ER no longer includes any route beyond Cheshunt. Whether the routeing points and links between Cheshunt & Liverpool Street have been omitted on purpose or by mistake is the question for which we do not know the answer.
 

clagmonster

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Oops, my apologies. In that case then, I suppose it depends on whether the change to Map ER was approved by the Secretary of State.
 
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