Leeds - shortage of people selling tickets to arriving passengers?

[WestCoast]

How much is the average fare on Metrolink? Indeed what about any metro system in continental Europe? Probably less than £2. They still manage to have TVMs. There are also low tech ways of selling tickets employed in mainland Europe that don't require TVMs. There are so many options. No more excuses. Anything is better than long queues on arrival. Don't forget that arrival at Leeds City station may not be the end of the journey. There may be onward connections that are put into jeopardy because of long queues.

Systems like Metrolink rely heavily on TVMs for revenue collection, in the cases of Metrolink and the Tyne & Wear Metro there are RPIs, but no guards or ticket office staff to pay for. All stations/stops are monitored at local control centres by CCTV around the clock, so the risk of vandalism is lower. This situation isn't directly comparable to Northern services.

One continental solution is to put TVMs onboard the trains, to serve those who board at stations without ticket purchasing facilities.

 

[185]

All Metrolink TVMs are Bachmann, 18 months old. They all take coins and credit cards and about 70% take notes (at least one per station takes notes) up to £20, including Scottish. They are even set up to sell £1000 annual season tickets.

All machines are linked centrally and indicate numerous status messages to the server including, ok, tickets low, change low, tamper/alarm etc.

 

[radamfi]

West Yorkshire even avoided this problem over 25 years ago when they had the 'Saverstrip', which gave 12 trips for the price of 10. Greater Manchester PTE also used the same technology for their 'Clippercard', although the GM version gave 10 trips for the price of 9 (or 8 for 'Off Peak' Clippercards and 7 for 'Teen Travel' Clippercards.)

Here is a picture of the GM version of the on bus ticket machine:

http://www.ticketmachinewebsite.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=41334404

West Yorkshire's system was more flexible as it was valid on trains as well as buses, whereas in GM it was only valid on buses. I used to travel regularly from Rochdale to Halifax by bus as a kid, using a GM Clippercard for the GM section together with a WY Saverstrip for the WY section. In WY you were allowed to cancel the ticket as many times as required. So I had a 5p x 12 Saverstrip and cancelled it 3 times for the 15p fare. Similarly for the train journeys I made between Halifax and Leeds.

Both GM and WY withdrew the system in the late 80s/early 90s, citing unreliability of the hardware. That was obviously nonsense as Denmark continue to use the same technology even now.

http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klippekort

 

[142094]

Tyne and Wear Metro machines also have the added benefit of being linked to the Control Centre, so if it is running low on ticket stock or change, a van can be sent to sort it out. However this inevitably means 'a man and a van' is on call all the time, so that is one cost, then there is the actual collection of the fare box, which is a two-man job in a security van. So at least three people per shift just to make the machine run properly. Add on to that the sorting of the coins and (now) notes, it all adds up.

 

[RJ]

Absolutely every Southern Station with a full service has a TVM offering cash and credit card sales, TOD, this has been funded by the franchisee on the basis that it makes them money!
My local station a lonely halt on Romney Marsh with 30,000 passengers a year and 1x 2 car service an hour has full facilities on its TVM and can even sell tickets from West Yorkshire stations
http://www.southernrailway.com/tickets-and-fares/buying-tickets/southern-tod/

My local shack in South London has the same superb TVM facilities (plus Oyster) as well as a staffed ticket office from start to finish of service and quite oddly, a PTT machine as well . I'm more than happy to provide Southern with the commission on the tickets I buy, especially since they are printing restriction codes on their tickets as well.

 

[34D]

Both GM and WY withdrew the system in the late 80s/early 90s, citing unreliability of the hardware. That was obviously nonsense as Denmark continue to use the same technology even now.

http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klippekort

If not mid 90s in WY. Stations used to have kerching machines too aswell as buses. As you say, a good system for its time. A couple of the preserved WYPTE buses have the machines on.

 

[johnnychips]

If not mid 90s in WY. Stations used to have kerching machines too aswell as buses.

Almost remember the advert!

'Kerchinga work, kerchinga play, kerchinga [can't remember]...kerchinga SAVERSTRIP!'

 

[radamfi]

Even the Metro DayRover was issued on a SaverStrip card, just with one clip which was cancelled on the first bus of the day or at the railway station if you used a train first. On all subsequent trips you showed the bus driver or just walked on the train.

The advert for that was, "Ker-ching a day out. Ker-ching a DayRover."

Curiously, the WY machines rang a bell after cancellation, whereas the GM machines didn't and you could just about hear the clipping of the card.

 

[YorkshireRider]

Ahhh, the saverstrip, i used them for school, if you got them bent though they wouldnt work in the machine, so the driver had to get his pair of clippers out and cut the little sqaure off. This was all too common and slow. The advert as i remember it was "kerchinger once, kerchinger twice, kerchinger saver, kerchinger saverstrip.....its cheaper!". Used to use them on the microrider minibuses.

 

[pemma]

As TVMs have a fixed link any debit card can be used to make a purchase, not just offline ones.

If that's the case why can't ticket offices take Visa Electron and Solo cards?

Of course someone at school without a part time job doesn't need a bank account and if they are under 16 the bank account has to be operated by their parents on their behalf.

If its the same kind of new Northern TVM as around here, that bright red light means the machine was out of service. I was told by a Guard that the green/red light is designed to be visible from the train so that the Guard knows whether passengers should have been able to purchase a ticket before boarding.

I'm pretty sure there are two types (card only and cash and card) and they don't have any Northern branding on the actual machines. It would be very expensive to have 10 different types of machines. The one at Knutsford confusingly scrolls two alternate messages one saying card only and another saying exact change only.

Having people with a debit card paying before they board at unstaffed stations can save quite a bit of time for the guard on board but if when paying with cash it's exact change only then you can't be made to buy before boarding when the ticket office is closed unless you're given a receipt allowing you to claim back any overpayment.

 

[34D]

If that's the case why can't ticket offices take Visa Electron and Solo cards?

I'd imagine its simply a policy issue. Just like (I don't think) some TOCs take Amex and Diners.

 

[sevenhills]

Yes. 328,558 would be high enough to retain an existing ticket office under the ticket office cuts proposed in the McNulty Review.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I have sent an email to the Secretary of State for Transport, Justine Greening MP. I wonder what response I will get?

 

[Solent&Wessex]

West Yorkshire even avoided this problem over 25 years ago when they had the 'Saverstrip', which gave 12 trips for the price of 10. Greater Manchester PTE also used the same technology for their 'Clippercard', although the GM version gave 10 trips for the price of 9 (or 8 for 'Off Peak' Clippercards and 7 for 'Teen Travel' Clippercards.)

Here is a picture of the GM version of the on bus ticket machine:

http://www.ticketmachinewebsite.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=41334404

West Yorkshire's system was more flexible as it was valid on trains as well as buses, whereas in GM it was only valid on buses. I used to travel regularly from Rochdale to Halifax by bus as a kid, using a GM Clippercard for the GM section together with a WY Saverstrip for the WY section. In WY you were allowed to cancel the ticket as many times as required. So I had a 5p x 12 Saverstrip and cancelled it 3 times for the 15p fare. Similarly for the train journeys I made between Halifax and Leeds.

Both GM and WY withdrew the system in the late 80s/early 90s, citing unreliability of the hardware. That was obviously nonsense as Denmark continue to use the same technology even now.

http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klippekort

Almost remember the advert!

'Kerchinga work, kerchinga play, kerchinga [can't remember]...kerchinga SAVERSTRIP!'

Even the Metro DayRover was issued on a SaverStrip card, just with one clip which was cancelled on the first bus of the day or at the railway station if you used a train first. On all subsequent trips you showed the bus driver or just walked on the train.

The advert for that was, "Ker-ching a day out. Ker-ching a DayRover."

Curiously, the WY machines rang a bell after cancellation, whereas the GM machines didn't and you could just about hear the clipping of the card.

Ahhh, the saverstrip, i used them for school, if you got them bent though they wouldnt work in the machine, so the driver had to get his pair of clippers out and cut the little sqaure off. This was all too common and slow. The advert as i remember it was "kerchinger once, kerchinger twice, kerchinger saver, kerchinger saverstrip.....its cheaper!". Used to use them on the microrider minibuses.

The Saverstrip was still around in 1994, but obviously on the way out. The left hand leaflet below was dated 1994 and it mentions that they are no longer able to be used on all bus routes. The green advert is from 1985, as is the black an white day rover one.

 

[radamfi]

The Saverstrip was still around in 1994, but obviously on the way out. The left hand leaflet below was dated 1994 and it mentions that they are no longer able to be used on all bus routes. The green advert is from 1985, as is the black an white day rover one.

Thanks for those pics! Great memories. I would still have my Saverstrip and Dayrover leaflets from the 80s if my dad didn't throw them out without my permission. The Dayrover leaflet was particularly attractively produced.

Before 1986, the Dayrover was valid on some buses outside West Yorkshire, including to Rochdale, Burnley and Manchester. Great value for £1 (or 50p child in my case at the time). It could even be bought at certain outlets outside WY, including Rochdale railway station.

 

[tony_mac]

If that's the case why can't ticket offices take Visa Electron and Solo cards?

They can; I've used an electron card at a Northern TVM.
And, also, it is possible

We do accept Solo, Electron and PrePaid Debit cards at the station ticket office.

http://www.arrivatrainswales.co.uk/BuyTicket/

Of course someone at school without a part time job doesn't need a bank account and if they are under 16 the bank account has to be operated by their parents on their behalf.

They don't need a bank account, but it may be convenient to have one.
E.g., Santander have an 11-15 current account, there is no need for a parent to be involved at all.

I don't think many people are massively inconvenienced by having to use a card-only machine - if the option is to either have a card or to queue and pay by cash.
There are lots of other places where this can happen - e.g. Argos, KFC, Tesco.

 

[IanXC]

If that's the case why can't ticket offices take Visa Electron and Solo cards?

Of course someone at school without a part time job doesn't need a bank account and if they are under 16 the bank account has to be operated by their parents on their behalf.

They can accept them though, in any case new cards are no longer branded separately, a Visa debit card, and a Visa (All Authorised) card are visually identical. A child can have an account in their own name from age 7, can have a cash card from 11, and a debit card from 13. Their parents must consent to the account being opened until 16, but they do not need to be involved with operating it.

I'm pretty sure there are two types (card only and cash and card) and they don't have any Northern branding on the actual machines. It would be very expensive to have 10 different types of machines.

Yep those are the ones, Green for "in service", Red for "out of service", I understand there is also Amber for "some services available". Northern do of course have about 5 types of TVM.

They can; I've used an electron card at a Northern TVM.

Thanks for the confirmation.

 

[pemma]

Their parents must consent to the account being opened until 16, but they do not need to be involved with operating it.

When I was under 16 I had an account that required a parent's signature to make a withdrawal and that was the standard. I imagine part of the reason for that (with cards being used less then) was that a child's signature could change every couple of years.

Northern do of course have about 5 types of TVM.

But they aren't installing 5 different types currently.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

They can; I've used an electron card at a Northern TVM.

Interesting because then if you rely on using an Electron card and the machine is out-of-order you can't buy on board with your card.

there is no need for a parent to be involved at all.

Yes there is someone under 16 isn't legally allowed to operate an account that their parent's haven't consented to while someone under 18 isn't legally allowed to be overdrawn.

I don't think many people are massively inconvenienced by having to use a card-only machine - if the option is to either have a card or to queue and pay by cash.
There are lots of other places where this can happen - e.g. Argos, KFC, Tesco.

Tesco self serve checkouts accept both cards and cash. You're right about some Argos stores but I don't know why you're comparing that to stations where the option is to pay by card before you board or to wait for the conductor to come to you and sell you a ticket - you aren't expected to hoard around the conductor if you don't have a ticket.

 

[IanXC]

When I was under 16 I had an account that required a parent's signature to make a withdrawal and that was the standard. I imagine part of the reason for that (with cards being used less then) was that a child's signature could change every couple of years.

My experience is that adults can suffer from this just as much!

Yes there is someone under 16 isn't legally allowed to operate an account that their parent's haven't consented to while someone under 18 isn't legally allowed to be overdrawn.

That is of course true for under 16s. The reason that under 18s are issued with All Authorise cards is precisely so that they cannot be overdrawn. Its not that they aren't allowed to be overdrawn, its that any debt incurred is not enforceable. From experience this set up works, and such situations are exceedingly rare.

 

[tony_mac]

That is of course true for under 16s.

Is it?
http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/wales/debt_w/young_people_money_and_consumer_rights.htm

There is no legal age limit at which you can open a bank account but a bank manager can decide whether to allow a child or young person to open an account.

Things have changed in recent years - e.g., have a look at the Santander application - they do not even ask for parents' details. I can't see anything which says the banks have to ask for consent.

Natwest, for example, say that they may write to the parents to tell them you have an account; clearly implying that you don't need their permission!

You're right about some Argos stores but I don't know why you're comparing that to stations where the option is to pay by card before you board or to wait for the conductor to come to you and sell you a ticket - you aren't expected to hoard around the conductor if you don't have a ticket.

The situation here is that you may have to queue at your destination if you can't pay in advance by card, which isn't so different from many other situations. (Petrol stations are probably a better example)

 

[island]

How much is the average fare on Metrolink? Indeed what about any metro system in continental Europe? Probably less than £2. They still manage to have TVMs. There are also low tech ways of selling tickets employed in mainland Europe that don't require TVMs. There are so many options.

Don't give Metrolink as an example, its TVMs don't take cards or notes!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If that's the case why can't ticket offices take Visa Electron and Solo cards?

Solo cards no longer exist and should all have expired by the end of last year. Visa Electron cards are accepted by some, but not all, ticket offices, but are also virtually out of circulation with the last bank issuing them (HBOS) planning to cease to do so this year.

Of course someone at school without a part time job doesn't need a bank account and if they are under 16 the bank account has to be operated by their parents on their behalf.

The latter at least is incorrect. Under-8s cannot have a bank account in their own name and 11-year olds can nowadays get a Visa debit card.

 

[IanXC]

Is it?
http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/wales/debt_w/young_people_money_and_consumer_rights.htm

Things have changed in recent years - e.g., have a look at the Santander application - they do not even ask for parents' details. I can't see anything which says the banks have to ask for consent.

Having looked this up in a suitably dry financial services law book, the actual situation is that under 18s can only enter into enfoceable (in this case financial services) contracts where they are for necessities, rather than luxuries. My understanding is that case law suggests that a bank account is seen as a luxury for an under 16, banks therefore generally obtain a parent/guardian's consent in order to support their position. I thought this practice was more widespread than comments on this thread suggest.

Solo cards no longer exist and should all have expired by the end of last year. Visa Electron cards are accepted by some, but not all, ticket offices, but are also virtually out of circulation with the last bank issuing them (HBOS) planning to cease to do so this year.

Absolutely right. The new Visa (All Authorise) and equivalent Mastercard product change the situation as a merchant cannot state that they do not accept them, as they are indistinguishable, and to do so would almost certainly be a breach of their merchant agreement.

 

[tony_mac]

Having looked this up in a suitably dry financial services law book, the actual situation is that under 18s can only enter into contracts where they are for necessities, rather than luxuries.

That's not exactly correct either - they can obviously enter into contracts (buying something, for example), but the other side can't enforce the contract (there are exceptions, such as necessities). Hence, it is sensible to ask minors for payment in advance.

http://www.oup.com/uk/orc/bin/9780199570058/01student/01chapters/chenwishart3e_webchapters.pdf

However, the contracts of children are not void; they are unenforceable
by the adult, but enforceable by the child.

 

[IanXC]

That's not exactly correct either - they can obviously enter into contracts (buying something, for example), but the other side can't enforce the contract (there are exceptions, such as necessities). Hence, it is sensible to ask minors for payment in advance.

http://www.oup.com/uk/orc/bin/9780199570058/01student/01chapters/chenwishart3e_webchapters.pdf

Oops, yes good point, I quoted a little out of context, I should have said "enter into enforceable financial services" contracts.

 

[pemma]

I think we're getting a bit too off-topic when all that really matters for the purposes of card only TVMs is under 18s either have no debit card or have one that only allows off-line transactions.

 

[island]

Online only Visa/MasterCard/UK Maestro debit cards work just fine in TVMs.

 

[radamfi]

Don't give Metrolink as an example, its TVMs don't take cards or notes!

Their old TVMs only accepted coins but they have now been replaced by ones which also accept notes and cards.

They have similar TVMs to those used by SWT and Southeastern.

http://www.rail.co.uk/images/507/original/10-metrolink-ticket-machine.jpg

http://www.metrolink.co.uk/pdf/09-1024 Metrolink TVM pocket guide 30.10.09.pdf

 

[185]

Don't give Metrolink as an example, its TVMs don't take cards or notes!

Not true

 

[island]

Sorry, I was thinking of T&W Metro!

 

[34D]

or have one that only allows off-line transactions.

When a conductor puts a card into his chip reader, is this 'online' if the machine can get a GSM (or whatever) signal but offline if he can't? Or is it always done without dialling up?

 

[IanXC]

When a conductor puts a card into his chip reader, is this 'online' if the machine can get a GSM (or whatever) signal but offline if he can't? Or is it always done without dialling up?

That's exactly the situation. The terminal will try to obtain authorisation if the chip data instructs it to, if there is insufficient signal to obtain authorisation it will decline the transaction.