Leeds Station: What further improvements would you like to see?

[londonmidland]

Moderator note: split from

Leeds Station Improvement

Leeds Civic Trust newsletter refers to a new platform being added and small improvements to New Station Street. Not aware of any details online elsewhere?

www.railforums.co.uk

Leeds really needs it’s P.A speakers reconfigured and renewed as the placement current ones results in announcements being far too echoey and quiet under the main station roof.

Those tall mounted column speakers are no good for this location and are spaced too far apart from each other.

These mounted lower down on every metal pillar would do the job nicely I think..

 

[J-2739]

Leeds really needs it’s P.A speakers reconfigured and renewed as the placement current ones results in announcements being far too echoey and quiet under the main station roof.

Those tall mounted column speakers are no good for this location and are spaced too far apart from each other.

These mounted lower down on every metal pillar would do the job nicely I think..

On a practical level, I sort of agree with you, but on an emotional level, I quite like the 'echo' effect.

 

[GoneSouth]

Why couldn’t Leeds have a full colour departure screen like London Victoria, showing green for on time and red for delayed trains? Surely there’s enough room over the gate line for this?

 

[londonmidland]

Why couldn’t Leeds have a full colour departure screen like London Victoria, showing green for on time and red for delayed trains? Surely there’s enough room over the gate line for this?

Probably cost I’d imagine.

 

[Andyh82]

Why couldn’t Leeds have a full colour departure screen like London Victoria, showing green for on time and red for delayed trains? Surely there’s enough room over the gate line for this?

I’m not sure it’s that necessary at Leeds as except for LNER services there is no reason to ‘wait’ and it isn’t custom to do so

 

[yorksrob]

I’m not sure it’s that necessary at Leeds as except for LNER services there is no reason to ‘wait’ and it isn’t custom to do so

Indeed - straight to platform as advertised.

I notice that platforms 13 & 14 at Man Pic have the colour coded arrangement, probably due to the heavily used nature of that bit of the station.

 

[reecestrains]

We're taking the Scotland approach with Leeds station here. As mentioned before, Edinburgh Waverley and Glasgow Central (also managed by Network Rail) are all white LED screens including main displays.

 

[YorksLad12]

Why couldn’t Leeds have a full colour departure screen like London Victoria, showing green for on time and red for delayed trains? Surely there’s enough room over the gate line for this?

Grey and grey, you mean? Red-green colourblindness is the most common in men.

The boards also scroll, which isn’t good for accessibility either; though I think that also happens with the orange ones.

 

[Andyh82]

Indeed - straight to platform as advertised.

I notice that platforms 13 & 14 at Man Pic have the colour coded arrangement, probably due to the heavily used nature of that bit of the station.

That as the first place the colour coded boards were used wasn’t it?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I’m not sure it’s that necessary at Leeds as except for LNER services there is no reason to ‘wait’ and it isn’t custom to do so

Indeed - straight to platform as advertised.

I notice that platforms 13 & 14 at Man Pic have the colour coded arrangement, probably due to the heavily used nature of that bit of the station.

Platform 16 gets pretty hectic if the Trans-Pennine route goes up the spout. It's a shame the bridge isn't a fair bit wider, as if it was a Piccadilly-style system could be implemented which would vastly improve things in that part of the station. It also doesn't help that the access to P17 (which itself serves the busy semi-fasts to Sheffield and beyond) is via the narrow and crowded P16.

 

[yorksrob]

That as the first place the colour coded boards were used wasn’t it?

I don't know, was it ?

Platform 16 gets pretty hectic if the Trans-Pennine route goes up the spout. It's a shame the bridge isn't a fair bit wider, as if it was a Piccadilly-style system could be implemented which would vastly improve things in that part of the station. It also doesn't help that the access to P17 (which itself serves the busy semi-fasts to Sheffield and beyond) is via the narrow and crowded P16.

Yes, as a regular user of P17, it is a bit of a krypton factor assault course to get to it at times. 16 at Leeds can get congested if there's disruption, but doesn't have the continual disgorging of trains that 13/14 at Piccadilly has.

 

[Killingworth]

Another protest here about Platform 17.

Trek across footbridge and downstairs into a seething mass of fed up waiting travellers unwilling to move away from the bottom of the stairs. They're seemingly oblivious to the needs of some of us needing to double back below the bridge to get to Platform 17.

When we get there it's narrow with hardly any seating. To anyone new to the platform having two 2 car trains for Sheffield behind each other is confusing, especially when doors are often not opened until just before leaving.

Clearly those in control don't consider their South Yorkshire market is very important.

 

[xotGD]

Another protest here about Platform 17.

Trek across footbridge and downstairs into a seething mass of fed up waiting travellers unwilling to move away from the bottom of the stairs. They're seemingly oblivious to the needs of some of us needing to double back below the bridge to get to Platform 17.

When we get there it's narrow with hardly any seating. To anyone new to the platform having two 2 car trains for Sheffield behind each other is confusing, especially when doors are often not opened until just before leaving.

Clearly those in control don't consider their South Yorkshire market is very important.

I would normally use the lift to get to 17 to avoid the double back and scrum. Most staff seem to do likewise.

 

[D6130]

I second that!

 

[YorksLad12]

It's the walk to P17 when a flood of people are walking the other way that scares me. Am honestly amazed that in 20-odd years no-one has been nudged off the platform where the lift is - there should be fencing there. I once nearly got nudged off P5 when a train disgorged on P4 a few years back - scared didn't cover it.

I know there's a plan to extend P17, but I'd much rather see it closed, or only used in the peaks and for stabling the rest of the time. Not going to happen of course, Leeds hasn't the space elsewhere for the four arrivals/departures per hour.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

It's the walk to P17 when a flood of people are walking the other way that scares me. Am honestly amazed that in 20-odd years no-one has been nudged off the platform where the lift is - there should be fencing there. I once nearly got nudged off P5 when a train disgorged on P4 a few years back - scared didn't cover it.

I know there's a plan to extend P17, but I'd much rather see it closed, or only used in the peaks and for stabling the rest of the time. Not going to happen of course, Leeds hasn't the space elsewhere for the four arrivals/departures per hour.

Yeah, unfortunately Leeds is stuck with P17 where it is and in much the same set-up as it is. Not only are there no real alternatives due to capacity, but it is the one platform that allows arrivals and departures from the Holbeck/Woodlesford direction without too much conflict with the rest of the station. Using one of the other platforms, even if there was space, would take a big bite out of the capacity due to conflicting moves.

 

[YorksLad12]

Yeah, unfortunately Leeds is stuck with P17 where it is and in much the same set-up as it is. Not only are there no real alternatives due to capacity, but it is the one platform that allows arrivals and departures from the Holbeck/Woodlesford direction without too much conflict with the rest of the station. Using one of the other platforms, even if there was space, would take a big bite out of the capacity due to conflicting moves.

Apart from P16. But then all those TPE services would have to move. I did think you could have TPE westbound off P15, eastbound off P12 and the stoppers on P13, so they're closely grouped. But P12 is intensively used as well, in part and in whole. Now... if we had that T-station addition for the Wakefield and NPR/HS2 services...

Moving to something less speculative: there's a phone tech store open now on the North Concourse, between Sainsbury's and the entrance to The Queens. Haven't had an opportunity to have a gander yet.

 

[Killingworth]

Platform 17!!

Access to it is awful, as is platform space and facilities when on it. Services aren't up to much either, clearly Sheffield and South Yorkshire deserve to be at the back of the back door according to planners at Leeds.

Excuse foreshortening in this telephoto shot, but I'd say there's a section by the current fire exit that would not easily be made wide enough to meet modern minimum platform width requirements. If it was I'd have thought they'd have done it. But it's also all the supports and catenary combined with points and signalling across the whole station approach that make it all so difficult. 17 is only part of that so it's going to take.... quite some time.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Platform 17!!

Access to it is awful, as is platform space and facilities when on it. Services aren't up to much either, clearly Sheffield and South Yorkshire deserve to be at the back of the back door according to planners at Leeds.

Excuse foreshortening in this telephoto shot, but I'd say there's a section by the current fire exit that would not easily be made wide enough to meet modern minimum platform width requirements. If it was I'd have thought they'd have done it. But it's also all the supports and catenary combined with points and signalling across the whole station approach that make it all so difficult. 17 is only part of that so it's going to take.... quite some time.

Depending on just how much the perspective is deceiving me, looks like you could maybe get another car length (though maybe only a 20m car) before the switch... obviously the signal would have to move, but you might get away with no changes to the track. Though I'm not sure how long it would be before it needed extending again, and then you would need to spend the big bucks extending the track... and of course moving the signal a second time. The one silver lining could be that by the time it happens, lineside signals may be a thing of the past.

Maybe need some sort of derogation/easement/whatever the term is to allow a narrower platform. Presumably such would be possible as long as you aren't taking the mick with something as narrow as the bit of Ormskirk that's under the bridge at the Liverpool end.

 

[Killingworth]

Depending on just how much the perspective is deceiving me, looks like you could maybe get another car length (though maybe only a 20m car) before the switch... obviously the signal would have to move, but you might get away with no changes to the track. Though I'm not sure how long it would be before it needed extending again, and then you would need to spend the big bucks extending the track... and of course moving the signal a second time. The one silver lining could be that by the time it happens, lineside signals may be a thing of the past.

Maybe need some sort of derogation/easement/whatever the term is to allow a narrower platform. Presumably such would be possible as long as you aren't taking the mick with something as narrow as the bit of Ormskirk that's under the bridge at the Liverpool end.

Aerial view from Google may help?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Aerial view from Google may help?

Thanks- I should really have scrolled up and looked at that photo where it was posted a few posts back!

Shocking how much distortion there was in the previous photo when you compare the two, there's a fair bit more length to play with than I thought. Width is clearly the problem, though I'd have thought that something slightly below the usual standard would be acceptable given the constraints of the site.

A lack of platform facilities will be unavoidable given those constraints, though I can't imagine anyone would want to linger in such an exposed spot for any longer than necessary anyway. It's a shame that improved access to P17 couldn't have been incorporated into the construction of the southern entrance, but that ship has sailed now.

When we get there it's narrow with hardly any seating. To anyone new to the platform having two 2 car trains for Sheffield behind each other is confusing, especially when doors are often not opened until just before leaving.

It could easily be made less confusing by having signage which indicates where the front train ends and the back train starts... though a clever solution might be required to locate such signage without further constraining the space. A screen in front of the buffer stops that displays something like:

Nearest n Carriages for: Wakefield Kirkgate; Barnsley; Meadowhall; Sheffield and stations to Nottingham.​

Furthest n Carriages for: Woodlesford; Castleford; Normanton and all stations to Sheffield.​

Which would obviously change for the Lincoln and Knottingley services when appropriate. I'd avoid using "Front train" or "Rear train" as non-railway people can easily get confused by this.

 

[GoneSouth]

I'd avoid using "Front train" or "Rear train" as non-railway people can easily get confused by this.

Seriously? Why did railway people get all the brain cells

 

[Iskra]

I'm in a agreement with everything already said about P17, but another flaw that hasn't been mentioned is that only a small proportion is sheltered from the elements. This also contributes to crowding at that end of 17 during inclement weather, making it a scrum to get off 17 through waiting passengers, before the next scrum on 16. It's a really tedious arrival experience and capacity constraint on South Yorkshire services.

 

[xotGD]

A turnback siding east of the station would allow Nottingham and Lincoln services to arrive at P15 and depart from P16.

 

[Iskra]

A turnback siding east of the station would allow Nottingham and Lincoln services to arrive at P15 and depart from P16.

That’s going to use valuable capacity on the busy line out to Neville Hill. I don’t think it would be an easy construction either.

 

[ChrisC]

I agree with just about everything people have already posted concerning P17. I especially agree about there being very little shelter and nowhere to sit down. Perhaps there isn‘t very much that can be done about the lack of facilities on P17 and how cold it can get during wet windy winter weather. However, whenever I have caught the Nottingham train from there I have always been left to stand in the cold at the side of a train standing in the platform with locked doors until only a few minutes before departure. As the Nottingham and Lincoln trains are usually in the platform 20-25 minutes before departure, considering the lack of shelter and facilities on P17, couldn’t Northern do something to facilitate passengers being able to board the train much sooner.

 

[YorksLad12]

I'm in an agreement with everything already said about P17, but another flaw that hasn't been mentioned is that only a small proportion is sheltered from the elements. This also contributes to crowding at that end of 17 during inclement weather, making it a scrum to get off 17 through waiting passengers, before the next scrum on 16. It's a really tedious arrival experience and capacity constraint on South Yorkshire services.

I think it’s only 25m long, so only one carriage is under cover. I’m one of those that walks to the far carriage, whatever the weather

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Seriously? Why did railway people get all the brain cells

That's clearly not what I meant, and you know it. Confusion isn't a synonym for stupidity.

Back in the old days of locomotive haulage, it was obvious which was the "front" because it was where the engine was. That isn't the case with multiple units. Also when there is two units in one platform, is the "front train" the unit closest to you or the one at the "country" end? To people unfamiliar with railway terminology, using terms like front and rear has an element of ambiguity which can, and therefore should, be avoided.

In any case, I was responding to a post that (correctly) stated that some passengers get confused when there are two trains leaving from the same platform within a few minutes of each other, both with the destination of Sheffield. It's even more confusing when you consider that one of them is the slow train, and that's the one that leaves first.

Those of us that know the railway know that it's because the slow train detours to Castleford and the fast one doesn't, but your average unfamiliar member of the public won't know this, and why should they?

You only have to look at the Disputes and Prosecutions section of this website to see how to those unfamiliar with the railway and its terminology, some of the quirks of operation can seem almost Kafkaesque.

(OK, I'm being a bit facetious now... but you get my point)

 

[GoneSouth]

(OK, I'm being a bit facetious now... but you get my point)

I do, and I was only joking, hence the smiley!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

That’s going to use valuable capacity on the busy line out to Neville Hill. I don’t think it would be an easy construction either.

There's possibly space in the Marsh Lane area, or in the cutting between there and Neville Hill. Still wouldn't solve the capacity issue, but problems like this require a little bit of give and take to solve. It's quite possible that the requirement for more capacity on the Nottingham route could outweigh the need for operational flexibility to the East of Leeds Station.

I do, and I was only joking, hence the smiley!

Indeed, I spotted that after I'd posted!