Leeds to Sheffield via Barnsley

[Bigman]

Is it just me or is this line far too slow due to the existing track layout?

Two pinch points strike me as needing a serious revamp. The first is Normanton station. Could a new platform be built at the West side with a new track through it which would become the Down Normanton? The existing ‘Down’ platform and track could then become the Up platform and track with a much higher track speed than the current 30 mph Up platform, which could then become an Up passenger loop.

The second pinch point is Horbury Jcn. There must be some scope here to do away with the current slow crossovers and weird track layout between there and Kirkgate Station? Is there enough traffic to actually warrant the need for 4 tracks between Kirkgate and Horbury Jcn? You could repurpose the outer tracks as passenger/freight loops only between Horbury Jcn and Kirkgate, with just 2 tracks at the junction itself, which would mean you could make a 60/70mph staggered junction for the Barnsley line which would speed the whole job up.

Right, tin hat on.

 

[yorksrob]

Is it just me or is this line far too slow due to the existing track layout?

Two pinch points strike me as needing a serious revamp. The first is Normanton station. Could a new platform be built at the West side with a new track through it which would become the Down Normanton? The existing ‘Down’ platform and track could then become the Up platform and track with a much higher track speed than the current 30 mph Up platform, which could then become an Up passenger loop.

The second pinch point is Horbury Jcn. There must be some scope here to do away with the current slow crossovers and weird track layout between there and Kirkgate Station? Is there enough traffic to actually warrant the need for 4 tracks between Kirkgate and Horbury Jcn? You could repurpose the outer tracks as passenger/freight loops only between Horbury Jcn and Kirkgate, with just 2 tracks at the junction itself, which would mean you could make a 60/70mph staggered junction for the Barnsley line which would speed the whole job up.

Right, tin hat on.

Yes, I've often thought this about Normanton in terms of the layout and trains definitely slow down to go around the "kink".

At the same time, I think more trains need to stop at Normanton anyway (to create a half hourly service to Leeds) so perhaps it doesn't matter that much anyway.

 

[Neptune]

The Hallam line could do with a recast. I don’t see why the Nottingham doesn’t call at Normy southbound and the Lincoln northbound (in normal times) to give a twice hourly service without the trains being too close together. They have such slack in the timings that the calls are possible.

Normy and Horbury are a difficult one to improve without major works. The 4 track from Horbury to Kirkgate is useful for looping freight so needs to stay.

 

[YorksLad12]

I always felt that, with the amount of land available (Normanton having been much more important in times past) that you could add two new, straight lines from somewhere south of Normanton feeding directly unto the Altofts Curve. Trains would then not have to slow down to walking pace as they ran through Normanton towards Kirkgate.

Timetable recast will be cheaper though, as per the conversations we had last year where we came up with some good ideas that will never happen, sadly...

 

[Neptune]

I’m sure that one idea I had last time was that one of the expresses call additionally at Normanton and Darton to give both a 2tph service.

 

[yorksrob]

I always felt that, with the amount of land available (Normanton having been much more important in times past) that you could add two new, straight lines from somewhere south of Normanton feeding directly unto the Altofts Curve. Trains would then not have to slow down to walking pace as they ran through Normanton towards Kirkgate.

Timetable recast will be cheaper though, as per the conversations we had last year where we came up with some good ideas that will never happen, sadly...

There's now a nice new housing estate gone up on most of that land I'm afraid.

That said, NR appear to have retained space for a track and a platform, or two tracks North of the current formation - not sure how this fits in with the road bridge though.

 

[Senex]

I always felt that, with the amount of land available (Normanton having been much more important in times past) that you could add two new, straight lines from somewhere south of Normanton feeding directly unto the Altofts Curve. Trains would then not have to slow down to walking pace as they ran through Normanton towards Kirkgate.

Timetable recast will be cheaper though, as per the conversations we had last year where we came up with some good ideas that will never happen, sadly...

That's what was planned when Normanton was still to be on the main roujte between Sheffield and Leeds/York (which is why there a 60-mph junction at Altofts). And then the combination of a massive slip at Royston and a major change of policy to rationalise the main lines in the Leeds/Sheffield area kicked in ...

 

[Neptune]

I find that 2 expresses and a stopper on the core route to be overkill at the expense of Normanton. This is nothing that a recast couldn’t solve but obviously is dependent on fitting things in everywhere at either end. However this is speculative ideas so let‘s have a go without trying to crayon too much ridiculousness. This is a timetable based on pre-covid:-

- Extend the hourly Huddersfield - Castleford service to Leeds also calling at Woodlesford en route.
- Route the Nottingham via Dearne as was originally planned in 2016. The space is there, just (forget sending it to Bradford too).
- Truncate the Lincoln express service back to Sheffield instead of running through to Leeds.
- Get rid of the awful slow all stops via Castleford service except for one in either direction during the peaks.
- Run 2 semi fasts the full route instead of 2 expresses.
- Stop one at Woodlesford, Normanton, Wakefield Kirkgate, Darton, Barnsley, Meadowhall & Sheffield.
- Stop the other at Wakefield Kirkgate, Barnsley, Wombwell, Elsecar, Chapeltown, Meadowhall & Sheffield.
- Penistone line and Knottingley services at either end of the route remain the same although slight retiming is probably necessary.

Normanton gains it’s second service into Leeds with the extension of the Huddersfield - Cas service.
Darton remains the same except in the peaks when it actually gains an additional service in either direction.
Castleford is the biggest loser in the Barnsley direction but if it were planned with good connections at Wakefield Kirkgate in either direction it shouldn’t be too much of a hassle. With a planned all stops service in the peaks this would give them a direct service anyway. The vast majority of Cas passengers are going to Leeds or Wakefield anyway.
Connections at Barnsley assist with connecting the stations either side of there. Again, Darton is generally served by people to/from Leeds, Wakefield, Barnsley & Meadowhall. Very few cross Barnsley passengers seem to exist outside the peaks.

For anyone wanting a fast service from Sheffield & Meadowhall to Leeds then there is the option with Cross Country for Sheffield and the Nottingham service for both stations.

I know a lot of people on here believe in stoppers runnning from everywhere to everywhere but it isn’t a perfect world and it is better to have a solid service for the majority than having a half arsed half hourly pseudo express service combined with an elongated stopper for the minority. Long sections in the middle of the route can cause problems with time keeping when the stopper is running late. Removing this service helps.

I’m sure someone will come up with a better idea but the above is based on working the route for 20 years at all times of day.

 

[yorksrob]

I find that 2 expresses and a stopper on the core route to be overkill at the expense of Normanton. This is nothing that a recast couldn’t solve but obviously is dependent on fitting things in everywhere at either end. However this is speculative ideas so let‘s have a go without trying to crayon too much ridiculousness. This is a timetable based on pre-covid:-

- Extend the hourly Huddersfield - Castleford service to Leeds also calling at Woodlesford en route.
- Route the Nottingham via Dearne as was originally planned in 2016. The space is there, just (forget sending it to Bradford too).
- Truncate the Lincoln express service back to Sheffield instead of running through to Leeds.
- Get rid of the awful slow all stops via Castleford service except for one in either direction during the peaks.
- Run 2 semi fasts the full route instead of 2 expresses.
- Stop one at Woodlesford, Normanton, Wakefield Kirkgate, Darton, Barnsley, Meadowhall & Sheffield.
- Stop the other at Wakefield Kirkgate, Barnsley, Wombwell, Elsecar, Chapeltown, Meadowhall & Sheffield.
- Penistone line and Knottingley services at either end of the route remain the same although slight retiming is probably necessary.

Normanton gains it’s second service into Leeds with the extension of the Huddersfield - Cas service.
Darton remains the same except in the peaks when it actually gains an additional service in either direction.
Castleford is the biggest loser in the Barnsley direction but if it were planned with good connections at Wakefield Kirkgate in either direction it shouldn’t be too much of a hassle. With a planned all stops service in the peaks this would give them a direct service anyway. The vast majority of Cas passengers are going to Leeds or Wakefield anyway.
Connections at Barnsley assist with connecting the stations either side of there. Again, Darton is generally served by people to/from Leeds, Wakefield, Barnsley & Meadowhall. Very few cross Barnsley passengers seem to exist outside the peaks.

For anyone wanting a fast service from Sheffield & Meadowhall to Leeds then there is the option with Cross Country for Sheffield and the Nottingham service for both stations.

I know a lot of people on here believe in stoppers runnning from everywhere to everywhere but it isn’t a perfect world and it is better to have a solid service for the majority than having a half arsed half hourly pseudo express service combined with an elongated stopper for the minority. Long sections in the middle of the route can cause problems with time keeping when the stopper is running late. Removing this service helps.

I’m sure someone will come up with a better idea but the above is based on working the route for 20 years at all times of day.

As a Normanton resident, I would rather have a service that avoids the traipse via Castleford, although I recognise that it is a destination in its own right for a lot of passengers on the Hallam.

For this reason, I would rather turn one of the fasts into a semi-fast calling additionally at Normanton and Darton to give a half hourly service, whilst extending Huddersfield - Castleford to York to provide improved journey opportunities.

 

[Neptune]

As a Normanton resident, I would rather have a service that avoids the traipse via Castleford, although I recognise that it is a destination in its own right for a lot of passengers on the Hallam.

For this reason, I would rather turn one of the fasts into a semi-fast calling additionally at Normanton and Darton to give a half hourly service, whilst extending Huddersfield - Castleford to York to provide improved journey opportunities.

That is another option however don’t fall into the trap of ‘what I want’ when the real solutions should be to improve the services for the millions of users each year. I’ve tried to unlock the route a little by knocking out the stopper and creating two semi fasts that give the majority a through service and a balanced minority of journeys a simple same platform connection. You still have 1tph which avoids Castleford which is better than now. The Hudds - Leeds via Cas that I suggested allows Cas to retain 2tph to/from Leeds.

Ive never seen the Castleford - York service as a huge priority. Except on race days I haven’t seen/sold many tickets wanting to head that way.

If you did HUD-YRK via CFD then both semi fasts could call at Normy with the service that is all stops Leeds to Barnsley also serving Castleford to retain the 2tph there. However this wouldn’t improve a huge amount on the current stopper. It would however knock a train out at both Leeds and Sheffield adding resilience there.

There is no perfect solution but I’m sure that the current service can be improved on.

 

[YorksLad12]

What we need is someone to mock this up as a timetable based on current paths, or predicted availability from May 2022. Not me, I do maps but the trick is not to give Normanton 3tph all within five minutes of each other.

For me, in general, it should be two Sheffield-Leeds fasts via Westgate; two semi-fasts via Barnsley and Kirkgate, alternately calling at Normanton and Darton; Sheffield-Barnsley-Kirkgate(-Castleford?) stopper; Leeds-Castleford-Knottingley up to 2tph. It might be necessary to sacrifice the extension of Pontefract Line services to Leeds from Westgate to free a path but that would be compensated for at the Pontefract end by the doubling of the frequency via Castleford.

I understand why one of the semi-fasts now extends to Lincoln (and it isn't because of the huge flows of passengers from Leeds, Wakefield and Barnsley to Lincoln) so similarly there may be platforming issues at Leeds (and Castleford!) to consider as well, although it's only the long-proposed Leeds-Westgate-Sheffield-Nottingham service that's being added.

 

[30907]

For me, in general, it should be two Sheffield-Leeds fasts via Westgate; two semi-fasts via Barnsley and Kirkgate, alternately calling at Normanton and Darton; Sheffield-Barnsley-Kirkgate(-Castleford?) stopper; Leeds-Castleford-Knottingley up to 2tph. It might be necessary to sacrifice the extension of Pontefract Line services to Leeds from Westgate to free a path but that would be compensated for at the Pontefract end by the doubling of the frequency via Castleford.

Recent discussion in this thread https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ra-stops-could-reduce-change-services.215722/

 

[YorksLad12]

Recent discussion in this thread https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ra-stops-could-reduce-change-services.215722/

I was thinking of this thread from last year: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...have-for-improved-hallam-line-service.209797/

Thing is, no-one's suggested anything pie-in-the-sky or major infrastructure requirements (yet). Quite restrained for us...!

 

[yorksrob]

That is another option however don’t fall into the trap of ‘what I want’ when the real solutions should be to improve the services for the millions of users each year. I’ve tried to unlock the route a little by knocking out the stopper and creating two semi fasts that give the majority a through service and a balanced minority of journeys a simple same platform connection. You still have 1tph which avoids Castleford which is better than now. The Hudds - Leeds via Cas that I suggested allows Cas to retain 2tph to/from Leeds.

Ive never seen the Castleford - York service as a huge priority. Except on race days I haven’t seen/sold many tickets wanting to head that way.

If you did HUD-YRK via CFD then both semi fasts could call at Normy with the service that is all stops Leeds to Barnsley also serving Castleford to retain the 2tph there. However this wouldn’t improve a huge amount on the current stopper. It would however knock a train out at both Leeds and Sheffield adding resilience there.

There is no perfect solution but I’m sure that the current service can be improved on.

I think the key thing needed on the route is for all the stops to have a half hourly service to the nearer of Leeds or Sheffield. Cass already has its half hourly service to Leeds, and I don't think adding a third would provide much of an improvement, compared to bringing a new economic centre within easy reach. My suggestion would also provide less tinkering with the existing train paths.

 

[Iskra]

Is it just me or is this line far too slow due to the existing track layout?

Two pinch points strike me as needing a serious revamp. The first is Normanton station. Could a new platform be built at the West side with a new track through it which would become the Down Normanton? The existing ‘Down’ platform and track could then become the Up platform and track with a much higher track speed than the current 30 mph Up platform, which could then become an Up passenger loop.

The second pinch point is Horbury Jcn. There must be some scope here to do away with the current slow crossovers and weird track layout between there and Kirkgate Station? Is there enough traffic to actually warrant the need for 4 tracks between Kirkgate and Horbury Jcn? You could repurpose the outer tracks as passenger/freight loops only between Horbury Jcn and Kirkgate, with just 2 tracks at the junction itself, which would mean you could make a 60/70mph staggered junction for the Barnsley line which would speed the whole job up.

Right, tin hat on.

I totally agree about the two pinch points you have identified- Horbury is painfully slow heading Northbound especially. I'd also suggest a third pinch point where much time is lost- the approach to Leeds. And Leeds is a key issue for services on this corridor. Before anything can really be improved (rather than just endlessly tinkered with), you would need either a longer platform 17 or a platform 18.

I think four tracks are needed through Wakefield Kirkgate due to freight, access to Crofton Depot, it's use as a diversionary route and the expansion of TP services to Wakefield all increasing pressure on the corridor.

The Hallam line could do with a recast. I don’t see why the Nottingham doesn’t call at Normy southbound and the Lincoln northbound (in normal times) to give a twice hourly service without the trains being too close together. They have such slack in the timings that the calls are possible.

I agree that would be very sensible. Normanton is a big loser from the current service pattern and it's prime commuter territory into Leeds. How many use other modes because all journeys are routes via Castleford?!

I find that 2 expresses and a stopper on the core route to be overkill at the expense of Normanton. This is nothing that a recast couldn’t solve but obviously is dependent on fitting things in everywhere at either end. However this is speculative ideas so let‘s have a go without trying to crayon too much ridiculousness. This is a timetable based on pre-covid:-

- Extend the hourly Huddersfield - Castleford service to Leeds also calling at Woodlesford en route.
- Route the Nottingham via Dearne as was originally planned in 2016. The space is there, just (forget sending it to Bradford too).
- Truncate the Lincoln express service back to Sheffield instead of running through to Leeds.
- Get rid of the awful slow all stops via Castleford service except for one in either direction during the peaks.
- Run 2 semi fasts the full route instead of 2 expresses.
- Stop one at Woodlesford, Normanton, Wakefield Kirkgate, Darton, Barnsley, Meadowhall & Sheffield.
- Stop the other at Wakefield Kirkgate, Barnsley, Wombwell, Elsecar, Chapeltown, Meadowhall & Sheffield.
- Penistone line and Knottingley services at either end of the route remain the same although slight retiming is probably necessary.

Normanton gains it’s second service into Leeds with the extension of the Huddersfield - Cas service.
Darton remains the same except in the peaks when it actually gains an additional service in either direction.
Castleford is the biggest loser in the Barnsley direction but if it were planned with good connections at Wakefield Kirkgate in either direction it shouldn’t be too much of a hassle. With a planned all stops service in the peaks this would give them a direct service anyway. The vast majority of Cas passengers are going to Leeds or Wakefield anyway.
Connections at Barnsley assist with connecting the stations either side of there. Again, Darton is generally served by people to/from Leeds, Wakefield, Barnsley & Meadowhall. Very few cross Barnsley passengers seem to exist outside the peaks.

For anyone wanting a fast service from Sheffield & Meadowhall to Leeds then there is the option with Cross Country for Sheffield and the Nottingham service for both stations.

I know a lot of people on here believe in stoppers runnning from everywhere to everywhere but it isn’t a perfect world and it is better to have a solid service for the majority than having a half arsed half hourly pseudo express service combined with an elongated stopper for the minority. Long sections in the middle of the route can cause problems with time keeping when the stopper is running late. Removing this service helps.

I’m sure someone will come up with a better idea but the above is based on working the route for 20 years at all times of day.

There's a lot of sensible discussion here and I would broadly support your idea, but there are a couple of issues. These trains can be busy (Pre-Covid) and are limited to being 2 car in length due to Platform 17 at Leeds and the need to share that platform with the current stopper or your proposed stopper. So a 1/3 reduction in overall passenger capacity doesn't seem sensible ...and they are just as busy at weekends due to the large shopping/drinking/football centres served, so peak time only extra services don't help that situation. Your solution does seem to please many people though by providing more direct, faster journeys to Sheffield and Leeds from the intermediate stations and improving the Normanton service. This comes back to needing a longer P17 or a P18 at Leeds, until that happens either Castleford or the Hallam line has to lose out in terms of overall passenger capacity with any changes made.

As a Normanton resident, I would rather have a service that avoids the traipse via Castleford, although I recognise that it is a destination in its own right for a lot of passengers on the Hallam.

For this reason, I would rather turn one of the fasts into a semi-fast calling additionally at Normanton and Darton to give a half hourly service, whilst extending Huddersfield - Castleford to York to provide improved journey opportunities.

From my observations Castleford station to Hallam line station passenger flows are negligible.

I was thinking of this thread from last year: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...have-for-improved-hallam-line-service.209797/

Thing is, no-one's suggested anything pie-in-the-sky or major infrastructure requirements (yet). Quite restrained for us...!

Sorry

...but then building a new platform isn't that speculative- Leeds has had one recently and Castleford will get an additional one soon too.

 

[tbtc]

What we need is someone to mock this up as a timetable based on current paths, or predicted availability from May 2022. Not me, I do maps but the trick is not to give Normanton 3tph all within five minutes of each other.

For me, in general, it should be two Sheffield-Leeds fasts via Westgate; two semi-fasts via Barnsley and Kirkgate, alternately calling at Normanton and Darton; Sheffield-Barnsley-Kirkgate(-Castleford?) stopper; Leeds-Castleford-Knottingley up to 2tph. It might be necessary to sacrifice the extension of Pontefract Line services to Leeds from Westgate to free a path but that would be compensated for at the Pontefract end by the doubling of the frequency via Castleford.

I understand why one of the semi-fasts now extends to Lincoln (and it isn't because of the huge flows of passengers from Leeds, Wakefield and Barnsley to Lincoln) so similarly there may be platforming issues at Leeds (and Castleford!) to consider as well, although it's only the long-proposed Leeds-Westgate-Sheffield-Nottingham service that's being added.

That sounds sensible (much better than running a Huddersfield - Castleford - York service, when there are four significantly faster Huddersfield - York services already running via Leeds each hour)

If we eventually get the second "fast" Sheffield - Leeds service via Westgate* then I've no problem with adding additional stops to the current half hourly Sheffield - Kirkgate - Leeds services (since nobody would be using it for longer distance journeys). For example, half hourly calls at Normanton (to Leeds) in the morning peak, half hourly calls at Chapletown (to Sheffield) in the morning peak, with the service balancing up later in the day - focus stops on where they are needed most (i.e. in the direction of peak travel), that kind of thing.

An increased half hourly Pontefract - Castleford - Leeds service should replace the existing Castleford - Leeds section of the Sheffield - Castleford - Leeds service IMHO. A half hourly service from the Glasshoughton retail park to Leeds could be much better for commuters into the city and leisure passengers wanting a leisure trip etc (compared to risking an hourly service).

So you'd have four trains per hour from Sheffield to Barnsley, two "fast" trains per hour from Kirkgate to Leeds (maximum of one stop, Normanton), two trains per hour from Pontefract/ Castleford to Leeds

The only question is what to do with the Sheffield - Castleford - Leeds service north of Barnsley. The options look like:

1. Terminate it at Barnsley (since the "semi fast" services would be picking up calls at Darton/ Normanton, and the Wakefield - Castleford links would be provided by the Huddersfield - Castleford service)
2. Terminate it on the single track at Dodworth to get it out of the way at Barnsley (extending it to Penistone may muck up the single track occupation though)
3. Terminate it at Castleford (which may mean not stopping as many of the other services at Darton/ Normanton)
4. Extend it to York (would require additional stock but I could see the "Barnsley to York" link being easier to justify than "here's a fifth service per hour from Huddersfield to York, with the twist that it's significantly slower than the existing four")

...but if there are two "semi fast" providing the Barnsley - Wakefield link then I don't think there'd be any point in terminating the Sheffield stopper at Wakefield - either terminate it somewhere around Barnsley or run it all the way through to Castleford/ beyond - running it to Wakefield (but no further) seems a waste of resources.

(* - and please something better than a two coach 195, if they introduce the second "fast" Sheffield - Westgate - Leeds service!)

 

[Iskra]

That sounds sensible (much better than running a Huddersfield - Castleford - York service, when there are four significantly faster Huddersfield - York services already running via Leeds each hour)

If we eventually get the second "fast" Sheffield - Leeds service via Westgate* then I've no problem with adding additional stops to the current half hourly Sheffield - Kirkgate - Leeds services (since nobody would be using it for longer distance journeys). For example, half hourly calls at Normanton (to Leeds) in the morning peak, half hourly calls at Chapletown (to Sheffield) in the morning peak, with the service balancing up later in the day - focus stops on where they are needed most (i.e. in the direction of peak travel), that kind of thing.

An increased half hourly Pontefract - Castleford - Leeds service should replace the existing Castleford - Leeds section of the Sheffield - Castleford - Leeds service IMHO. A half hourly service from the Glasshoughton retail park to Leeds could be much better for commuters into the city and leisure passengers wanting a leisure trip etc (compared to risking an hourly service).

So you'd have four trains per hour from Sheffield to Barnsley, two "fast" trains per hour from Kirkgate to Leeds (maximum of one stop, Normanton), two trains per hour from Pontefract/ Castleford to Leeds

The only question is what to do with the Sheffield - Castleford - Leeds service north of Barnsley. The options look like:

1. Terminate it at Barnsley (since the "semi fast" services would be picking up calls at Darton/ Normanton, and the Wakefield - Castleford links would be provided by the Huddersfield - Castleford service)
2. Terminate it on the single track at Dodworth to get it out of the way at Barnsley (extending it to Penistone may muck up the single track occupation though)
3. Terminate it at Castleford (which may mean not stopping as many of the other services at Darton/ Normanton)
4. Extend it to York (would require additional stock but I could see the "Barnsley to York" link being easier to justify than "here's a fifth service per hour from Huddersfield to York, with the twist that it's significantly slower than the existing four")

...but if there are two "semi fast" providing the Barnsley - Wakefield link then I don't think there'd be any point in terminating the Sheffield stopper at Wakefield - either terminate it somewhere around Barnsley or run it all the way through to Castleford/ beyond - running it to Wakefield (but no further) seems a waste of resources.

(* - and please something better than a two coach 195, if they introduce the second "fast" Sheffield - Westgate - Leeds service!)

It’s not about Huddersfield-York journeys though is it? It’s about Wakefield and Castleford to York and Manchester, faster than what is currently possible.

Chapeltown already has a half hourly Sheffield service all day (in normal times)

Where are you terminating all these trains at Leeds?

 

[YorksLad12]

I totally agree about the two pinch points you have identified- Horbury is painfully slow heading Northbound especially. I'd also suggest a third pinch point where much time is lost- the approach to Leeds. And Leeds is a key issue for services on this corridor. Before anything can really be improved (rather than just endlessly tinkered with), you would need either a longer platform 17 or a platform 18.

I think four tracks are needed through Wakefield Kirkgate due to freight, access to Crofton Depot, it's use as a diversionary route and the expansion of TP services to Wakefield all increasing pressure on the corridor.

I almost agree with you. It's not so much that Leeds is a pinch point as that there's now too much traffic for what the E & F roads compared to what they carried 20 years ago. Trains from Sheffield/Knottingley/Castleford have to wait to be signalled in to P17, and some of that wait is due to late-running TPE traffic heading towards Huddersfield - both are using F.

Ideally you want a separate G road but that would also need a new viaduct to carry it and you can't sensibly build a new P18 platform nearby to make the business case. Unless you build it halfway to the old Whitehall platform from Leeds 1st days, and then you'd still need a walking route to the main station!

In my ideal world I'd have TPE services on 12 towards Micklefield and 15 towards Dewsbury so you could use D, E or F to leave the station. Then virtually split 16, with Hallam & Pontefract line stoppers via Castleford using 16A and F to arrive/depart as now, terminators from York or Selby using 16B. Both could then be 3-car trains if required. P14 could be filled in to improve P15. But that would cause problems with all the other services using C & D. Ho hum.

Could we four-track from Kirkgate to Altofts? My memory says no.

 

[Manutd1999]

How about running:

2x fast Leeds - Kirkgate - Barnsley - Meadowhall - Sheffield, both of which continue to Nottingham.
1x slow Leeds-Sheffield, but skipping Castleford.
1x slow Sheffield - Castleford, possibly continuing to York via Dearne Valley
2x Leeds - Castleford - Knottingly

This would result in a more uniform half-hourly timetable to/from Leeds and Sheffield, whilst keeping all the current connections. A half-hourly service Leeds-Nottingham may also enable the EMR "express" service to cut some stops in the Erewash valley.

The big question (as always) is if there is enough capacity.....

 

[HST43257]

What about this (all 1tph)

• Leeds to Nottingham FAST (as current)
• Leeds to London FAST (for another thread, maybe later)
• Leeds to Huddersfield SEMI (nonstop to Normanton, then all stops inc Horbury new stn to Hud)
• Leeds to Sheffield SLOW (as current)
• Leeds to Knottingley SLOW (as current)
• York to Knottingley (Connecting York to Castleford and Xscape at Glasshoughton)

A half-hourly service Leeds-Nottingham may also enable the EMR "express" service to cut some stops in the Erewash valley.

Chesterfield to Nottingham calling only at Alfreton isnt good enough?

 

[Neptune]

The only way to increase capacity realistically at the south side of Leeds station is to progress the idea from several years ago of joining platform 13 & 14 to make a much needed extra through platform. This would free p16 up but you would probably terminate stoppers from the Sheffield, Knottingley and Huddersfield directions in there. The longer lay overs of the fast services are better utilising p17. The York terminator would use p7 rather than clogging up p16 for 40 minutes.

A half-hourly service Leeds-Nottingham may also enable the EMR "express" service to cut some stops in the Erewash valley.

The big question (as always) is if there is enough capacity.....

Does there need to be 2tph Leeds - Nottingham. Pre COVID I would say it wasn’t justified. Also if you were going to 3tph on the Erewash Valley why would you make both Leeds services stoppers? Wouldn’t you rather one stopper and one fast calling at Alfreton & Chesterfield through to Leeds. The EMR service is absolutely fine as it is. Also you would want an even pattern service going that way of 20 minutes or near as damn it intervals for 3tph so that would unbalance the fasts on the Hallam line.

• Leeds to London FAST (for another thread, maybe later)

Why ?

For once in a speculative thread I am enjoying the healthy debate and discussion with some really good propositions on here. So far everyone is looking at alternatives in a realistic and reasonably do-able way.

Next thing we’ll no doubt have Leeds - Liverpool going this way or Leeds - Birmingham, or even Leeds - Penzance via Melksham operated by Go-op. Not everywhere needs a service to London especially with the good connections at Sheffield, Wakefield and Leeds from the Hallam route.

 

[HST43257]

Why ?

For once in a speculative thread I am enjoying the healthy debate and discussion with some really good propositions on here. So far everyone is looking at alternatives in a realistic and reasonably do-able way.

Next thing we’ll no doubt have Leeds - Liverpool going this way or Leeds - Birmingham, or even Leeds - Penzance via Melksham operated by Go-op. Not everywhere needs a service to London especially with the good connections at Sheffield, Wakefield and Leeds from the Hallam route.

as I said, leave it for another thread to pop up in the near future

EDIT: here it is https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/emr-extensions.216788/

 

[Neptune]

as I said, leave it for another thread to pop up in the near future

My issue is that this is a discussion about the Hallam line and how to improve the service for the users.

Throwing in a London service does not add anything constructive. It’s just a forum favourite to throw in another direct service from somewhere (the Hallam line in this case) to anywhere (London in this case) due to some form of unsubstantiated untapped market (Barnsley & Meadowhall in this case). MML tried it years ago and quietly dropped the service when it was realised that it wasn’t justified and that was in the days when London travel was starting to boom.

There is no capacity at Leeds to accommodate a 10 car EMR service every hour anyway and if it’s suggested that it can split into a 5 car unit then it still can’t be accommodated in platform 17.

 

[YorksLad12]

Just to break up my day a bit I tried chopping the routes into sensible chunks to see if they could be rearranged fairly easily. Short answer: they can't.

Much longer answer... it's all down to the diagrams, current paths and platform availability. You could run a semi-fast Sheffield-Leeds-Sheffield-Lincoln-Sheffield-Leeds-Sheffield diagram as that's what used to happen before May 2018, except it was Notttingham rather than Lincoln.

But everything else is tightly integrated. Leeds-Castleford-Knottingley-Kirkgate-Leeds-Kirkgate-Knottingley-Castleford-Leeds minimises dead time at the Leeds and Knottingley ends, for example. Oddly, the xx48 stopper from Leeds via Rotherham to Sheffield currently turns into the xx06 to Nottingham on arrival, and vice versa. As it's not a through service, the only reason to tie them together is to prevent the Nottingham service occupying a platform at Sheffield for 50 minutes. Which it wouldn't do if the departure from Nottingham was brought forward 12 minutes so that the turnaround time was 8 minutes instead of 20 as now.

So... if we just added extra stops into the semi-fasts at Normanton and Darton, would people be happy? By far the simplest solution

 

[tbtc]

It’s not about Huddersfield-York journeys though is it? It’s about Wakefield and Castleford to York and Manchester, faster than what is currently possible

Wakefield already has the hourly service to York, which means that the only real beneficiaries of a Huddersfield - Wakefield - Castleford - York service would be people in Castleford.

Whereas extending the Sheffield - Castleford stopper would at least give a new place (Barnsley) a direct York service.

Chapeltown already has a half hourly Sheffield service all day (in normal times)

Yeah, I'm talking about sticking a couple of stops in the "semi fast" services (maybe turning them into something closer to sixty five minutes, but that's not as big a problem if there are two properly "fast" services via Westgate)...

...in which case we could use the stops so that both Chapletown and Normanton get a half hourly service to their nearest big city (on top of the two stoppers that pass through Chapletown - i..e. a combined four trains per hour from Chapletown to Sheffield in the morning peak) - but maybe each get one stop per hour on the "semi fast" during the daytime (one stop per hour at Darton too)

Where are you terminating all these trains at Leeds?

I was suggesting four trains per hour through Holbeck (two from Knottingley via Castleford, two from Sheffield via Barnsley). The additional "via Westgate" service was in the Arriva franchise commitments (and uses a path that XC use occasionally), so doesn't seem to far fetched to suggest delivering.

In fact, since we're getting rid of the Lincoln/ Nottingham extensions and just having two simple services on each route (2x Sheffield, 2x Knottingley), we could run a half hourly Sheffield - Barnsley - Leeds - Knottingley - Leeds - Barnsley - Sheffield circuit - with ten minutes dwell at Leeds each time it passes through, so there'd only be one service in the platform at once (instead of running four different services through Holbeck into Leeds and then having some of them sit at the buffers whilst another service comes in to the far end of the platform and heads out again)

So that'd be a seven hour circuit, in which case ten minutes should be sufficient dwell at Leeds, so that the recovery time could be put in at the Knottingley end (meaning you didn't need to hog platforms at Leeds for long). That way you're not restricting the length of the trains or complicating the platform situation.

 

[YorksLad12]

I was suggesting four trains per hour through Holbeck (two from Knottingley via Castleford, two from Sheffield via Barnsley). The additional "via Westgate" service was in the Arriva franchise commitments (and uses a path that XC use occasionally), so doesn't seem to far fetched to suggest delivering.

Really? Are there any times attached to that? Genuinely curious to know how it would fit in to the timetable and give a reasonable spacing at Leeds and Sheffield.

In fact, since we're getting rid of the Lincoln/ Nottingham extensions and just having two simple services on each route (2x Sheffield, 2x Knottingley), we could run a half hourly Sheffield - Barnsley - Leeds - Knottingley - Leeds - Barnsley - Sheffield circuit - with ten minutes dwell at Leeds each time it passes through, so there'd only be one service in the platform at once (instead of running four different services through Holbeck into Leeds and then having some of them sit at the buffers whilst another service comes in to the far end of the platform and heads out again)

But then the Leeds-Wakefield-Knottingley would have lots of dead time - it interworks with the via Castleford service.

 

[Iskra]

Wakefield already has the hourly service to York, which means that the only real beneficiaries of a Huddersfield - Wakefield - Castleford - York service would be people in Castleford.

Whereas extending the Sheffield - Castleford stopper would at least give a new place (Barnsley) a direct York service.



Yeah, I'm talking about sticking a couple of stops in the "semi fast" services (maybe turning them into something closer to sixty five minutes, but that's not as big a problem if there are two properly "fast" services via Westgate)...

...in which case we could use the stops so that both Chapletown and Normanton get a half hourly service to their nearest big city (on top of the two stoppers that pass through Chapletown - i..e. a combined four trains per hour from Chapletown to Sheffield in the morning peak) - but maybe each get one stop per hour on the "semi fast" during the daytime (one stop per hour at Darton too)



I was suggesting four trains per hour through Holbeck (two from Knottingley via Castleford, two from Sheffield via Barnsley). The additional "via Westgate" service was in the Arriva franchise commitments (and uses a path that XC use occasionally), so doesn't seem to far fetched to suggest delivering.

In fact, since we're getting rid of the Lincoln/ Nottingham extensions and just having two simple services on each route (2x Sheffield, 2x Knottingley), we could run a half hourly Sheffield - Barnsley - Leeds - Knottingley - Leeds - Barnsley - Sheffield circuit - with ten minutes dwell at Leeds each time it passes through, so there'd only be one service in the platform at once (instead of running four different services through Holbeck into Leeds and then having some of them sit at the buffers whilst another service comes in to the far end of the platform and heads out again)

So that'd be a seven hour circuit, in which case ten minutes should be sufficient dwell at Leeds, so that the recovery time could be put in at the Knottingley end (meaning you didn't need to hog platforms at Leeds for long). That way you're not restricting the length of the trains or complicating the platform situation.

I know Wakefield has a service to York (I used to work at Westgate), but it isn't particularly fast, is crowded, expensive and it doesn't have a direct service to Manchester which would be massively important and a much quicker journey than changing at Leeds, so Wakefield would also benefit massively, as would Manchester Wakefield-Huddersfield would also be faster and more express in nature on such a service. It would also benefit service users in the Leeds area by removing a service from the choke point East of Leeds.

I'm not against that, I just think Wakefield comes ahead of Barnsley in terms of service need.

That franchise commitment does seem to be being quietly abandoned along with the whole Northern Connect brand. Remember, the franchise doesn't exist anymore.

That's an interesting idea.

 

[Manutd1999]

Does there need to be 2tph Leeds - Nottingham. Pre COVID I would say it wasn’t justified. Also if you were going to 3tph on the Erewash Valley why would you make both Leeds services stoppers? Wouldn’t you rather one stopper and one fast calling at Alfreton & Chesterfield through to Leeds. The EMR service is absolutely fine as it is. Also you would want an even pattern service going that way of 20 minutes or near as damn it intervals for 3tph so that would unbalance the fasts on the Hallam line.

I think probably was there pre-COVID. Nowadays, who knows?

The idea was more about getting a reliable, half-hourly service pattern. The curreny arrangement is ok, but constrains the Hallam line services as they have to try and get clock-face with the EMR.

With 2ph Leeds-Nottingham, Northern would keep clockface half-hourly service down the Erewash valley, whilst the EMR could act as an "extra" fast service.

The other option would be to extend 1x to Nottingham and 1x to Lincoln.