Leeds <> York

[First class]

In that case, why no flexible Northern-only fares?

The ORCATs share they do get from LDS-YRK could be reduced even more, as TPE/XC could argue that if anyone wanted to use Northern they'd buy the specific TOC ticket, not the Any Permitted.

Northern as a flow setter for the Harrogate line could not easily create walkup NT Only products. They would have to prevent use of NT Only tickets on the via Harrogate services, which to the public will seem confusing. The route would have to say something along the lines of NOT HARROGATE, NORTHERN RAIL ONLY, which I would struggle to abbreviate into a sensible and understandable length for ticketing. It is not permitted to price TOC Specific fares for your own TOC, when you set the fares for that line.

 

[bb21]

I am intrigued by the fact that despite both providing one journey opportunity per hour between Leeds and York (with limited peak variations), Northern only get next to no ORCATS revenue yet XC get enough?

 

[Merseysider]

The ORCATs share they do get from LDS-YRK could be reduced even more, as TPE/XC could argue that if anyone wanted to use Northern they'd buy the specific TOC ticket, not the Any Permitted.

Northern as a flow setter for the Harrogate line could not easily create walkup NT Only products. They would have to prevent use of NT Only tickets on the via Harrogate services, which to the public will seem confusing. The route would have to say something along the lines of NOT HARROGATE, NORTHERN RAIL ONLY, which I would struggle to abbreviate into a sensible and understandable length for ticketing. It is not permitted to price TOC Specific fares for your own TOC, when you set the fares for that line.

Agreed. This is something the new ticket design would be able to address, instead of something like "NOT HGT NT ONLY" there'd be a full description of validity. But it is probably more effort than it's worth even thinking about while 'old' style tickets are still in circulation.

 

[First class]

I am intrigued by the fact that despite both providing one journey opportunity per hour between Leeds and York (with limited peak variations), Northern only get next to no ORCATS revenue yet XC get enough?

All fare tiers of the new Advance tickets Northern have set offer more revenue then they would ever get through ORCATs on the CDS is about as much as I will give away.

 

[bb21]

All fare tiers of the new Advance tickets Northern have set offer more revenue then they would ever get through ORCATs on the CDS is about as much as I will give away.

I am not surprised that Northern get less (substantially less percentage wise if my understanding of the ORCATS process is correct) than even the lowest tier of their new Advances.

My surprise is with the claim that XC get so much more than Northern as to be classed as "enough" despite also only providing one journey opportunity an hour, unless I am reading too much into your comments.

 

[First class]

I am not surprised that Northern get less (substantially less percentage wise if my understanding of the ORCATS process is correct) than even the lowest tier of their new Advances.

My surprise is with the claim that XC get so much more than Northern as to be classed as "enough" despite also only providing one journey opportunity an hour, unless I am reading too much into your comments.

Lots of flows are biased towards InterCity operators, regardless of actual service provision unless a specific flow has been queried/challenged.

The reality is that the ORCATs distribution factors for the majority of the UK flows haven't been reviewed since 1996.

But generally, if we were going to create a new allocation amount for LDS-YRK:

Northern run 1tph to York, and XC run 1tph to York, the reason XC should get a greater share is this:

1) Northern are running unattractive 2-car trains with far less capacity than modern, longer, more attractive services.

2) XC are running express services, the NT is more like a local service, and unless you are travelling to one of the intermediate stations, it is unlikely many people will be drawn to that service. People naturally want to be on the non-stopping service, even if that takes the same, or sometimes marginally more time to their destination. XC would normally carry more passengers per hour than Northern.

3) Northern price via Harrogate fares with 100% revenue allocation. These direct services to York can't really be said to create 2tph on the Any Permitted flow.

A lot of flows are set at simple percentage levels, like 50:50 just because nobody has really worked out actual demand.

Cornwall to South Wales flows are usually priced by ATW, but the ORCATS flow is 50:50 between FGW and XC only. Some flows use fixed £ amounts, some use fixed % amounts.

Software called MOIRA analyses specific flows, (on demand), and can see if additional stops or routes will be profitable for a TOC based on the timetable, passenger numbers, seating capacity etc that they input.

Bottom line is that ORCATs is largely left alone unless a TOC complains or an Open Access Operator wants to see what's in the pot. Some of the allocations are getting on to 20 years old without being unchanged since. Some TOCs are more proactive, some just focus on their 100% allocated flows and any other ORCATS revenue is just a bonus.

 

[bb21]

Some interesting insights, thanks.

 

[158801]

Most Northern trains between York and Leeds seem to be overtaken by a TPE service. Therefore, for journeys in this direction, a trip on a Northern train would seem impractical. I can't see Northern being allocated much ( if anything ) for this train.

Also, ORCATS allocates a lower percentage of money to services which immediately follow others.

So, for a journey from A to B with three departures an hour at xx.10, xx.14 & xx.18 the operator of the xx.10 would get the lions share of revenue allocation.

Looking at the timetable, a TPE service leaves York for Leeds at xx.41 closely followed by the xx.45 XC service. So Cross Country may not be getting as much revenue as you might think.

For the reverse journey (Leeds to York) the TPE service is 4 mins after the XC service so the reverse applies.

There's also a " flight " of trains at xx.08 (XC), xx.12 (TPE), xx.17 (TPE), xx.25 (NT) before a largish gap until xx.43. So with Northern being last in the " flight " their revenue allocation is reduced again.

 

[yorkie]

Most Northern trains between York and Leeds seem to be overtaken by a TPE service.

In terms of the trains via Garforth, heading West less than half get overtaken (at Church Fenton). Heading East only those which call at Ulleskelf (very few) are likely to be overtaken.

 

[Starmill]

In terms of the trains via Garforth, heading West less than half get overtaken (at Church Fenton). Heading East only those which call at Ulleskelf (very few) are likely to be overtaken.

Even those are often not. I have always wondered where this misconception comes from. If you are at Leeds and going to York and the next train is the Northern, it's a good idea to get on it.

The route would have to say something along the lines of NOT HARROGATE, NORTHERN RAIL ONLY, which I would struggle to abbreviate into a sensible and understandable length for ticketing. It is not permitted to price TOC Specific fares for your own TOC, when you set the fares for that line.

Agreed. This is something the new ticket design would be able to address, instead of something like "NOT HGT NT ONLY" there'd be a full description of validity. But it is probably more effort than it's worth even thinking about while 'old' style tickets are still in circulation.

You two need some more imagination - other TOCs didn't let that stop them!

'GARFORTH&NORTHN' may do the trick.

After all we already have

ATW FGW NT & TPE
CHESTFLD&EMT&CON
PETERBORO & VTEC
UPPER WARL WLEAF


and the list goes on...

 

[Merseysider]

How about NOTXCTPEVTEC/HGT

By the way, what is a WLEAF?

 

[bb21]

Whyteleafe I think.

 

[PermitToTravel]

When the current style tickets are phased out in favour of the ones presently being introduced, hopefully the 16 character restriction will be removed and TOCs will be able to (if they wish) set restrictions like "Only valid on Northern Rail services not via Harrogate"

 

[34D]

I am not surprised that Northern get less (substantially less percentage wise if my understanding of the ORCATS process is correct) than even the lowest tier of their new Advances.

My surprise is with the claim that XC get so much more than Northern as to be classed as "enough" despite also only providing one journey opportunity an hour, unless I am reading too much into your comments.

Every other northern service only calls at three suburban stations in leeds (cross gates, garforth, east garforth and micklefield) so is basically semi fast anyway. One of the TPE's each hour calls at one of these (varies which).

 

[bluenoxid]

Expect more of this. I noted that Northern had recruited a role recently to increase Advanced fare revenues.

 

[Starmill]

Alex Hynes promised more of them in the Direct Award.