Left stranded by TPE

[RJ]

So I travelled from the East Midlands to Liverpool today on the return portion of a ticket to Rice Lane. I ended the journey at Liverpool.

At Liverpool, I purchase an Off Peak Return to Hightown using National Transport Tokens, a RTV and cash. I used the return portion of a ticket to Blundellsands to return east towards the Midlands.

I boarded a TPE service towards Manchester and was left smarting when I realised that I had lost my ticket wallet, which had my 16-25 Railcard in it along with 4 weeks worth of tickets I'd just collected and my university ID. However, I received a phonecall from the university security department, who informed me that I was to call Northern Rail with regards to the wallet. It transpires I had dropped it in Liverpool. So I got off this TPE service at Manchester Oxford Road and went back to Liverpool to collect it.

Along the way, a TPE RPO came checking tickets. I showed him the ticket to Hightown and explained why I didn't have the railcard. He said I'd have to pay an excess to the non-discounted fare and I said fine, no problem. I then paid with a mix of a Postal Order and National Transport Tokens, but the guard and RPO both refused, saying that the railway does not accept these methods of payment. I begged to differ, so the RPO withdrew both the outward and return portion of the ticket to Hightown, vandalised them and said that he'd call the police to meet the train.

I said that if he was withdrawing my tickets, he had an obligation under Condition 20 of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage to provide a receipt and also to provide me with a ticket to complete my journey. I also asked him why he felt the need to vandalise the tickets - it was a pay train, so he had an obligation to offer the opportunity to buy a ticket, undiscounted if he so wished and let my pay using the approved payment methods.

The RPO decided to call the police and tell them that I was an abusive passenger who was refusing to pay the fare. The BTP met the train at Liverpool. I was more than willing to discuss the matter and in front of them, I offered to pay for a new ticket with a £50 Traveller's Cheque. However, the guard and the RPO said that TPE don't accept anything other than cash or card payment. The police officer decided to side with them and said that it was a civil matter, but if I didn't co-operate with them, it would become a criminal matter. The RPO took out his notebook and asked for my name, which I provided and my D.O.B, which I wilfully refused to provide, in front of the police on the basis that he had no legal authority to demand it. The RPO confirmed that he was taking my details so he could file a report for prosecution, which contravened the claim that it was a civil matter. The lot of them treated me like I was born yesterday, quoting legalese (wrongly) like I don't know exactly what's what.

The RPO got upset because I did not provide my date of birth and reiterated to the police officer that I was abusive to him on the train, which was a categorical lie. I did need to get back on that train once I got my wallet back, but that RPO said he didn't want me on his train again and the police chose to uphold his wishes, despite watching me attempt to pay the man. The train then left - the RPO had withdrawn my tickets, not taken my full details and not given me any receipt or ticket to travel in lieu of the withdrawn tickets.

The BTP officers then decided to try and ditch me on the concourse at Liverpool, saying they had no further responsibilities with regards to the matter. I wasn't having this at all. Eventually, they admitted that they don't have much knowledge of railway law and conceded that I had not committed an offence at all and agreed that the methods of payment I tendered should have been accepted, once I had shown them the National Rail website's stance on payment methods. They also admitted that I had not been abusive in any way and that they could see that I was just trying to stand up for myself, but said there was nothing else they can do as they had to assume the member of staff was correct.

I think this issue with railway staff who don't know how to do their job needs publicising as much as possible. The RPO telephoned the police making out that I was abusive and directly stated this to them in person, wilfully rejected the various forms of payment I had offered, in front of the police and withdrew my tickets, refusing to provide any replacements. If this outfit thinks I'm going to sit back and let this lie, they have another thing coming!

 

[Pumbaa]

Blimey. Best of luck with it, First customer relations can be more than obfuscatory at the best of times. Please keep us updated!

And yes I agree with your final point. Don't shout it too loudly though - you'll just get accused of being anti-railway

 

[RochdalePioneers]

Outrageous! Having travelled up from London to Darlington today having seen the gripper abused by people trying to dodge time restrictions on their SSR tickets I and other passengers had a long chat with him after the troublemakers left at York to give our support to the way he handled the situation and offering witness statements if a complaint was made against him.

When passengers get abusive I can understand why the odd member of staff may have a face on towards passengers - happens in all customer facing roles for the odd person. But not knowing the rules they're allegedly trying to uphold and getting abusive to you when you point out their error, that's very wrong. And stranding you having taken your ticket - isn't that withholding a service you are contractually entitled to?

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

 

[transportphoto]

Post aimed at RJ:

As far as I am aware, Postal Orders have to be made payable to a certain body at the point of sale, who do you request the post office make the order payable to?

 

[RJ]

Right - I have one Postal Order for a negligible amount, along with one Traveller's Cheque and quite lot of National Transport Tokens. I have posted elsewhere that I carry these for the purpose of discouraging ticket inspectors from frivolously issuing UFNs/selling me new tickets for upwards of £70. These methods of payment remain in my travel bag. So, when I lose my wallet which has my cards in it, they double as means to get around.

As for the first part, I have a requirement to commute regularly on EMT services. The valid tickets I use to save money often elicit unjustified charges for brand new tickets. I don't set out to cause chaos - it's not down to me if the railways are happy to have incompetent staff ripping customers off through illegitimate application of the procedures on a regular basis.

 

[156441]

I'm sure a TPE guard will correct me but I'm sure postal orders are treated as cheques which are no longer accepted on the train.

I certainly wouldn't know how to process one as a Northern guard!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Northern deffo don't take travellers cheques!

 

[Ediswan]

On this rare occasion, where you did need to pay, you could have kept it simple and used cash or card.

 

[156441]

Think the OP states that he lost his cash/cards with his wallet.

 

[yorkie]

I gave TPE Customer Relations a ring, and the following 'information' was given out by TPE Customer Relations:

• TPE do not accept Postal Orders
• TPE are not a National Rail train Company
• TPE operate a Penalty Fare Scheme (indeed all of the TOCs do)
• Any revenue staff can take all contact details, which includes date of birth

The person I spoke to was polite, and I believe genuine. I am certain that they genuinely believed they were giving out correct information.

I expressed my surprise and thanked them for their time. To be fair, some customer relations staff don't like those sort of questions and they were fine with it.

In my opinion this is a major training issue across the board, in so many areas!

 

[maniacmartin]

Post aimed at RJ:

As far as I am aware, Postal Orders have to be made payable to a certain body at the point of sale, who do you request the post office make the order payable to?

Postal orders can also be purchased uncrossed (cashable by anybody)

 

[Ferret]

I certainly wouldn't know how to process one as a Northern guard!!

I'm not sure I'd know how to process them either, if I'm honest!

 

[Swirlz]

Postal orders can also be purchased uncrossed (cashable by anybody)

I haven't posted for some time, but I still read the threads.

National Rail says:

Postal Orders
Postal Orders of the United Kingdom are accepted as payment for goods and services, providing they:

bear an issue date stamp which is not more than six months old;
are crossed and made payable to your Train Company. Any received uncrossed must be crossed with two lines at the time of acceptance;
are not made out for a greater amount than that due since no change must be given.
In no circumstances can a Postal Order be exchanged for cash or accepted when made payable to a third party.

I'd say that they can probably sustain a Byelaw 18 prosecution.

Regardless of attitude/refusal to accept payment, you boarded and travelled on a train without a valid ticket (due to no railcard). Why on earth would you choose to act up when you are clearly in the wrong and could be prosecuted so easily?

I think you will find yourself with a Summons, with TPE probably rather unimpressed with your deliberate awkwardness.

 

[causton]

Regardless of attitude/refusal to accept payment, you boarded and travelled on a train without a valid ticket (due to no railcard). Why on earth would you choose to act up when you are clearly in the wrong and could be prosecuted so easily?

I think you will find yourself with a Summons.

He said it was a pay train, so could purchase a ticket on board. I think he was just trying to see if they would accept his existing valid* ticket first.

*apart from the lack of railcard

 

[RJ]

Post aimed at RJ:

As far as I am aware, Postal Orders have to be made payable to a certain body at the point of sale, who do you request the post office make the order payable to?

It's not made out to anyone - it can be made out at any point before it is used to purchase something.

I'm sure a TPE guard will correct me but I'm sure postal orders are treated as cheques which are no longer accepted on the train.

I certainly wouldn't know how to process one as a Northern guard!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Northern deffo don't take travellers cheques!

Any member of staff who agrees to sell a ticket on train needs to accept any of the given methods of payment - nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/payment_methods.html

Cheques are something different entirely. Payment methods on the railway are regulated and there is a complex process required to drop a given method of payment as acceptable.

 

[Swirlz]

I read it that he managed to travel Liverpool - Manchester Oxford Road without a valid ticket, and also a second occasion between Manchester and Liverpool, and on the second occasion, he was caught by a TPE Revenue Officer.

Bottom line is, if the ticket was discounted, and no railcard was presented to the RPO, the offence is seemingly committed.

 

[maniacmartin]

Any received uncrossed must be crossed with two lines at the time of acceptance

I read this as saying that they can be crossed and made out to the relevant TOC at the time of payment.

I also came to causton's conclusion. There is nothing wrong with trying to get an excess, and if it fails, purchasing a ticket. You never know, some staff will take pity

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I think he was just trying to see if they would accept his existing valid* ticket first.

*apart from the lack of railcard

So it's not a valid ticket then?

I have no particular wish to get involved in RJ's situation, but woolly language like that only serves to muddy the already brown waters.

 

[Ediswan]

Think the OP states that he lost his cash/cards with his wallet.

Not in the OP, which is all that was available when I posted.

(I often keep tickets in separate plastic 'wallet' from cash and cards, so there was defintely room for my original reading.)

 

[RJ]

I haven't posted for some time, but I still read the threads.

National Rail says:



I'd say that they can probably sustain a Byelaw 18 prosecution.

Regardless of attitude/refusal to accept payment, you boarded and travelled on a train without a valid ticket (due to no railcard). Why on earth would you choose to act up when you are clearly in the wrong and could be prosecuted so easily?

I think you will find yourself with a Summons, with TPE probably rather unimpressed with your deliberate awkwardness.

Just let them try. It's a pay train. They are not exempt from the regulations regarding acceptable methods of payment and if they need to be informed of this in a courtroom when attempting to prosecute me, so be it.

I lost my wallet and had direct contact with the Northern Rail ticket office at Liverpool who confirmed that they had it. How was I trying to be awkward by offering an advertised valid method of payment, on a pay train?

 

[Swirlz]

Just let them try. It's a pay train. They are not exempt from the regulations regarding acceptable methods of payment and if they need to be informed of this in a courtroom when attempting to prosecute me, so be it.

I lost my wallet and had direct contact with the Northern Rail ticket office at Liverpool who confirmed that they had it. How was I trying to be awkward by offering an advertised valid method of payment, on a pay train?

But you still commit an offence under Byelaw 18.

You have no defence, unless you can find a notice specifying clearly it is acceptable to pay on board or if you received authorisation to travel from a member of staff.
As far as I know, there is no such thing as a "Pay Train". If facilities exist, you must always use them.

Northern and TPE certainly enforce that.

The "payment options" are a red herring here. The refusal to accept a payment after an offence was committed does not change the fact you travelled in contravention of the Byelaws and a court will only concern themselves with the Byelaw.

 

[D841 Roebuck]

To the OP - could you not have purchased a ticket back to Liverpool to collect your mislaid property at Oxford Road??

 

[Ediswan]

I lost my wallet and had direct contact with the Northern Rail ticket office at Liverpool who confirmed that they had it. How was I trying to be awkward by offering an advertised valid method of payment, on a pay train?

For clarity, was what you offered all you had left after losing the wallet ?

If so, not being awkward.

 

[RJ]

I read it that he managed to travel Liverpool - Manchester Oxford Road without a valid ticket, and also a second occasion between Manchester and Liverpool, and on the second occasion, he was caught by a TPE Revenue Officer.

Bottom line is, if the ticket was discounted, and no railcard was presented to the RPO, the offence is seemingly committed.

The concept of a pay train is that you can pay for a ticket on the train. Enforcement of Byelaw 18 would be tantamount to entrapment.

 

[Swirlz]

The concept of a pay train is that you can pay for a ticket on the train. Enforcement of Byelaw 18 would be tantamount to entrapment.

But TPE and Northern do not allow that unless no facilities exist prior to travel.

Indeed, there are many threads on this very forum where Northern have decided to prosecute plus they have warning posters at most stations.

Manchester Oxford Road is even gated to (attempt to) prevent people travelling without a valid ticket.

 

[yorkie]

But TPE and Northern do not allow that unless no facilities exist prior to travel.

Indeed, there are many threads on this very forum where Northern have decided to prosecute plus they have warning posters at most stations.

It is TPE policy to charge Anytime fares if a passenger "walks past an open ticket office"

This is well off-topic though, the matters being disputed are the payment methods, the requirement to issue a receipt for a withdrawn ticket, and the demand to take DOB.

If we can get back on-topic that would be good

 

[Swirlz]

It is TPE policy to charge Anytime fares if a passenger "walks past an open ticket office"

But it does not prevent a Byelaw prosecution from occurring.

The only defences are:

(i) there were no facilities in working order for the issue or validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where, he began his journey; or
(ii) there was a notice at the station where he began his journey permitting journeys to be started without a valid ticket; or
(iii) an authorised person gave him permission to travel without a valid ticket.

 

[RJ]

But it does not prevent a Byelaw prosecution from occurring.

The only defences are:

(i) there were no facilities in working order for the issue or validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where, he began his journey; or
(ii) there was a notice at the station where he began his journey permitting journeys to be started without a valid ticket; or
(iii) an authorised person gave him permission to travel without a valid ticket.

TOCs have free will not to enforce Byelaw 18. Certain TOCs specifically don't, where pay train services are concerned. The language the RPO used "got on our train without the means to pay" suggested he expected a prosecution the RoR 1889 to go ahead.

 

[Ferret]

To the OP - could you not have purchased a ticket back to Liverpool to collect your mislaid property at Oxford Road??

That's what I was thinking. RJ, I hope you haven't tripped up here - you weren't in a position of strength to start with after all.

Personally I doubt TPE will Byelaw 18 this, but they could if they wanted to I fear. Be careful out there

 

[Anvil1984]

However if we (Northern / TPE) believe an offence to be deliberate we reserve the right to not sell the Standard Anytime ticket and submit a TI report. Knowing that youve loet your railcard and not telling the onboard staff before boarding may sway the decision from selling a ticket to not selling it


Sorry that was a reply to yorkie earlier

 

[yorkie]

I read it that he managed to travel Liverpool - Manchester Oxford Road without a valid ticket, and also a second occasion between Manchester and Liverpool, and on the second occasion, he was caught by a TPE Revenue Officer.

I read it that he started his journey at Liverpool Lime St, (depending on your precise definition of when a journey is started) he subsequently became aware he had lost his railcard, so he aborted his intended journey to Manchester and returned to where his railcard had been found. There is no evidence he exited at Manchester Oxford Road so I see no reason to believe there is more than one "occasion" or "journey".