Left stranded by TPE

[richw]

i mentioned that DoB is a field on a UFN.... jeeeez are we really going round in circles here....

You stated it is REQUIRED to provide DOB, you did not say it was an option.
From your posts on this thread, you seem to lack knowledge and have little knowledge of the regulations.
RJ lost his wallet, which turned out was at Liverpool station, are we suggesting he did this deliberately, the only payment methods he had was the disputed methods.
He is not required to delay his journey to buy a ticket at the intermediary station where he changed to return to Liverpool, this has been discussed and concluded numerous times, and therefore he should have been offered all the advertised payment methods. He had left his wallet at Liverpool, and therefore anyone would surely assume cash and cards would be in that wallet, which is at Liverpool
As per FTPE posters he can buy a full price fare onboard, failure to allow this would be in breach of FTPE policy.
The rail staff didn't provide a receipt for the confiscated tickets. the rail staff fabricated RJ was being abusive, which appears to have been the opinion of BTP as well.

 

[455driver]

As you astutely note the RPO was indeed being generous by offering an excess rather than a new ticket, that is at least until they refused a valid means of payment which is where the dispute lies (and a few other things besides).

Or look at it another way-

The RPO was being reasonable by bending the rules a little (in the passengers favour) and was then presented with a very strange form of payment (which may or may not have been valid) and so thought (in my opinion) "oh you want to a smart ar$e do you, well two can play at that".

If RJ had tendered some cash instead of trying to be clever with the travellers cheque then this thread wouldnt even exist.

 

[ainsworth74]

If RJ had tendered some cash instead of trying to be clever with the travellers cheque then this thread wouldnt even exist.

An option not available to him as he had lost his wallet! So he opted to use the only available means of payment, which is admittedly a bit off the wall, to pay for the excess offered. How else do you suggest he paid what was required? Or do you propose he should have just remained stuck at Manchester?

I'm perfectly content that had cash or card been available to him RJ would have used them.

 

[455driver]

How else do you suggest he paid what was required? Or do you propose he should have just remained stuck at Manchester?

Have a quick chat with the guard before boarding the train explaining the situation would be a good start, rather than just jumping on board!

Thats how I get on in my life, I dont go looking to get into "discussions" about validity at every opportunity, but then I have a life outside the routing guide.

 

[Searle]

Have a quick chat with the guard before boarding the train explaining the situation would be a good start, rather than just jumping on board!

Have you actually read the thread?

I did consider looking for the guard, but the train had pulled in a minute or two late and a crowded Northern service towards Liverpool had just deposited all of its passengers on the island platform, so it was impractical and probably impossible for me to go and find the guard.

 

[RJ]

there are ways and means of approaching problems, the best thing for you to do would have been to approach the guard BEFORE boarding the train or gone to the back STRAIGHT AWAY when the train departed if they were busy with train dispatch...

after making further enquiries there are also colleagues at EMT who are aware of the guy who tries to pay on board with travellers cheques and postal orders and who quotes from the NRCOC when challenged.... in almost 10 years on the railway i have NEVER come across ANYONE trying to pay on board via these methods, and neither has anyone else i have spoken to, and other guards on this thread share the same sentiment... so whilst respecting that this may be a coincidence, you have to admit it would be a million to one chance that this is someone else!!

I'll quite happily take on those odds as the person you are referring to is not me. I've held that Traveller's Cheque for only one month. In that time, I have only mentioned anything about a Traveller's Cheque to one solitary EMT RPI, on board a train whereby I presented a valid ticket that he felt was not valid by that route. He initially tried to charge me for a new ticket, but eventually passed the ticket I showed him as valid.

With all due respect, what you're going on is conjecture and hearsay. I didn't need to approach the guard before boarding - I was not after a free ride. You may well show discretion towards passengers who do this, but not all of your colleagues are like this. Even when I was active staff, I showed my Priv and asked guards to buy a ticket before boarding. On several occasions, I was told to go and buy a Priv ticket from the ticket machine. One guard was even so kind as to cheerfully say that I was free to board his train, but I would be getting a £140 Penalty Fare if I did. Another tried to send me to a closed ticket office then stated that if my Visa Debit card didn't work, he'd have me detrained at the next stop, where the ticket office was also shut. These are some of my experiences of one member of railway staff looking out for another.

Evidently, your experience of the railways differ from mine. In my experience, it's risky to approach a guard and ask them for anything that requires any degree of discretion. Seeing as a policy whereby tickets are sold on board is publicised by TPE and I was prepared to pay, there was nothing wrong with me taking a seat and offering payment when the ticket inspector came along.

 

[Ferret]

To answer a question from page 10, the 'three fails' concept does exist for calling BTP out to revenue protection matters. However, RJ specifically mentioned earlier that the Police were called to deal with an 'abusive passenger', so I don't find the 'three fails' to be applicable here.

 

[SussexMan]

That sentence on NRE is slightly ambiguous, in order to prevent people from thinking that it's uniformly ok to pay for a ticket on board trains. It actually means that where tickets are offered for sale on board, all of the listed methods of payments can be used. Even in The Manual, it specifically stated that RTVs can be used to pay Penalty Fares on board and the like.

If you would like to read Secton 7.1 of the TSA, it lists the payment methods that must be accepted by retailers of Rail Products. There is no discernable exemption for on board retailers.

Thank you RJ for providing some clarification on this which is more than anyone else has done and I presume the sort of Authority which DaveNewcastle was looking for.

I searched for Secton 7.1 of the TSA (Ticketing and Settlement Agreement for anyone who doesn't know the acronym) and could only find a copy on the ATOC website here.

I don't know what the latest incarnation of the TSA is as the above is dated 7th April 2010 but I assume they have now added Travellers Cheques and Postal Orders since the above version as I can't see them in there? Do you have a link you could share with us with those added payment options?

 

[oddiesjack]

I am one of the many people on here who follow RJ's exploits with interest, and was a little confused as to the relevance of the Anytime return to Hightown, bought at Liverpool.

Initially I assumed this would be a Liverpool-Hightown return, so I couldn't see how this would have been any way valid for travel from Oxford Road to Liverpool, but I have now come to the conclusion that this return must be one of the obscure tickets that allow travel from London to the East Midlands, so from somewhere down south to Hightown. Is this correct?

If so, would it not have been cheaper to just buy an Oxford Road-Liverpool day return from the guard instead of excessing and using up a more valuable (to RJ) longer-distance return?

 

[richw]

I am one of the many people on here who follow RJ's exploits with interest, and was a little confused as to the relevance of the Anytime return to Hightown, bought at Liverpool.

Initially I assumed this would be a Liverpool-Hightown return, so I couldn't see how this would have been any way valid for travel from Oxford Road to Liverpool, but I have now come to the conclusion that this return must be one of the obscure tickets that allow travel from London to the East Midlands, so from somewhere down south to Hightown. Is this correct?

If so, would it not have been cheaper to just buy an Oxford Road-Liverpool day return from the guard instead of excessing and using up a more valuable (to RJ) longer-distance return?

My understanding is the longer distance tickets are cheaper and/or off peak tickets valid at peak time due to various restrictions.
There is nothing to read into regarding his "exploiter of loophole" tag, it simply means he has researched where a cheaper ticket is valid when one should imagine it shouldnt be, an example I am aware of is off peak tickets from certain locations in devon and cornwall to the north VIA London, are valid for departure from London during peak times, so can be cheaper to have an off peak ticket from one of these locations to the north that is valid to start short at london than just buying an anytime ticket from London. I understand the only restriction with some off peak tickets to certain north of England destinations from my local station is the journey must start after 930am,

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Even in The Manual, it specifically stated that RTVs can be used to pay Penalty Fares on board and the like.

If you would like to read Secton 7.1 of the TSA, it lists the payment methods that must be accepted by retailers of Rail Products. There is no discernable exemption for on board retailers.

Thank you RJ for providing some clarification on this which is more than anyone else has done and I presume the sort of Authority which DaveNewcastle was looking for.

I searched for Secton 7.1 of the TSA (Ticketing and Settlement Agreement for anyone who doesn't know the acronym) and could only find a copy on the ATOC website here.

I don't know what the latest incarnation of the TSA is as the above is dated 7th April 2010 but I assume they have now added Travellers Cheques and Postal Orders since the above version as I can't see them in there? Do you have a link you could share with us with those added payment options?

I have examined a copy of the TSA dated 2012 and confirm that S. 7.1 (1) does not include Postal Orders.
I would consider the TSA to be a binding authority, being a Contractural comittment signed by all Operating Companies - but it doesn't help us here, because of that omission.

RJ is quite correct that even the Manual states that Postal Order are as acceptable as any other form of Payment - it's easy to find, having its own subsection under 'Payments'.
In a following section covering 'On-train payments', the Manual advises "Customers joining at stations where no facilities were available for purchase of tickets should be able to purchase from the full range of fares options available as if tickets had been bought immediately before travel . . . . ."

All ticket selling staff should have access to that information, even if that is via a phone call to Control, a Manager or Colleague, and while it may be impractical to do so during travel, it should certainly be consulted when offering opinions at leisure.
However, even RJ has acknowledged that the Manual is an industry document and does not form part of the passenger's Contract, so, I'm sorry to say that I'm still looking for the authority that clarifies the acceptance of Postal Orders.

 

[RJ]

I'm aware of what is and isn't in the relevant section of that document I pointed to. I pointed it out to dispel the misconception that the railways are only obliged to accept cash and card.

I had enough tokens to cover the cost of the ticket. I offered the Postal Order as part payment to reduce the amount of shrapnel given to the guard. As I produced the tokens and began counting them out, the response was "we don't accept those" and no effort was made by the staff to verify how much I had. The Postal Order was offered as it is listed as a valid method of payment on the NRE site. Had they been prepared to accept the tokens, I would have taken the Postal Order back and paid the entire amount with the tokens to avoid further conflict. I had £30.20 worth.

For those who are citing the sentence on NRE - where does it state that there is a restriction on acceptable methods of payment on board trains? I maintain it is written in that manner to discourage the general travelling public from believing that tickets are available on board trains in all circumstances. The lack of amplification to infer that restrictions apply on the range of acceptable payment methods suggests that all of the listed methods should be accepted by any retailer of tickets.

Can anyone come up with anything veritable, in writing, confirming that any such restrictions apply? If you can, then I am prepared to back down.

 

[W230]

...the BTP call this the three failures and are the three things an authorised person must have attempted to obtain before calling for police assistance, the BTP will not attend a fare-evaision call unless all three factors of this equation have been met....

Beautifully put and totally incorrect.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

oh what do i know..... clearly a bunch of train spotters know more about my job than i do, i must have been doing it all completely wrong for that last 10 years... the guard trainers, managers, instructors must all be wrong too!!! (in case you didn't realise, that was sarcasm!) :roll::roll:

we do get given information with "holes" in it. But as I don't have anywhere near enough time to read half the literature that some of these guys/gals do it does not surprise me.

However words are just words and experience counts for a lot, I would trust my experience (like yourself 10 years on the railway) and maybe on this occasion we are wrong, but as in a depot of 150 guards alone who have never once mentioned any passenger asking to pay by Postal order or Travellers cheque I would presume it is rarer then a legitamate Dodo sighting. So he may be right and he has now found another loophole to make even more guards life hard work because he gets a buzz from it. good on him! I can sleep safe in my bed knowing that certain people get a thrill from being clever and havinf so much free time to read all the small print..time for bed for me, I have a life that requires sleep before getting all normal folk from A to B as quickly and as safely as possible, but fear not! I now know I can get someone trying to be awkward and purposely paying with methods of payment that don't actually exist on the equipment that we are issued!

 

[SussexMan]

we do get given information with "holes" in it. But as I don't have anywhere near enough time to read half the literature that some of these guys/gals do it does not surprise me.

However words are just words and experience counts for a lot, I would trust my experience (like yourself 10 years on the railway) and maybe on this occasion we are wrong, but as in a depot of 150 guards alone who have never once mentioned any passenger asking to pay by Postal order or Travellers cheque I would presume it is rarer then a legitamate Dodo sighting. So he may be right and he has now found another loophole to make even more guards life hard work because he gets a buzz from it. good on him! I can sleep safe in my bed knowing that certain people get a thrill from being clever and havinf so much free time to read all the small print..time for bed for me, I have a life that requires sleep before getting all normal folk from A to B as quickly and as safely as possible, but fear not! I now know I can get someone trying to be awkward and purposely paying with methods of payment that don't actually exist on the equipment that we are issued!

I understand if you haven't read all the previous postings but the Ticketing and Settlement Agreement does NOT require TOCs to accept Postal Orders or Travellers Cheques. So if anyone tries to pay using those methods, unless your TOC has agreed to accept those methods, I can't see any reason why you have to.

 

[RJ]

And the National Transport Tokens...? I also offered those as a method of payment and they were rejected.

 

[Ferret]

I have a funny feeling that this thread will see the end of postal orders being accepted as a method of payment. Perhaps it'll also put the mockers on traveller's cheques too. I suppose time will tell!

 

[ANorthernGuard]

I understand if you haven't read all the previous postings but the Ticketing and Settlement Agreement does NOT require TOCs to accept Postal Orders or Travellers Cheques. So if anyone tries to pay using those methods, unless your TOC has agreed to accept those methods, I can't see any reason why you have to.

I looked on my own TOC's website and there is absolutely no mention of them, and in a decade I have never seen them? If it was me as a guard on the OP trip I would have given the benefit of the doubt, just because I wasn't sure and I would rather not go in to the repercussions if I was wrong but it just seems like its all a game to RJ and Traincrew are his favourite victims, now that I find very wrong indeed.

 

[maniacmartin]

I now know I can get someone trying to be awkward and purposely paying with methods of payment that don't actually exist on the equipment that we are issued!

The RPO was being reasonable by bending the rules a little (in the passengers favour) and was then presented with a very strange form of payment (which may or may not have been valid) and so thought (in my opinion) "oh you want to a smart ar$e do you, well two can play at that".

If RJ had tendered some cash instead of trying to be clever with the travellers cheque then this thread wouldnt even exist.

In this case, RJ was not trying to be awkward. He had misplaced his wallet and had no other payment methods to hand. The shortcomings in your Avantix machines are not of the passenger's concern.

i actually find your comments highly offensive.... i have not supplied any information which is incorrect.... all the other rail staff have agreed, we can not all be wrong!

Oh yeh i forgot.... you spotters know more than the railway staff who are all poorly trained and know nothing!!!! (again, sarcasm!!)

And I find your comments offensive. Not everyone who has posted in this thread is either a spotter or a member of rail staff. Staff with your attitude are unfortunately all too common, and it is why I always buy tickets online if I can - I get a better service than face to face from most staff.

That sentence on NRE is slightly ambiguous, in order to prevent people from thinking that it's uniformly ok to pay for a ticket on board trains. It actually means that where tickets are offered for sale on board, all of the listed methods of payments can be used. Even in The Manual, it specifically stated that RTVs can be used to pay Penalty Fares on board and the like.

If you would like to read Secton 7.1 of the TSA, it lists the payment methods that must be accepted by retailers of Rail Products. There is no discernable exemption for on board retailers.

I also believe that the "slightly ambiguous" sentence on the NRE was written that way for that reason, however I don't believe that a literal reading permits using the alternative methods on board if facilities exist before boarding. The Manual (and I believe also the TSA) are not part of the contract between the passenger and the TOC - in fact The Manual is not even available to the public. If I was in your position, I would definately have bought a ticket from the office in Manchester before boarding where the acceptance of these payment methods is less of a grey area.

I must say that I am concerned, along with SussexMan and DaveNewcastle, that this situation may not fully pan out in your favour.

 

[455driver]

I looked on my own TOC's website and there is absolutely no mention of them,

Does it mention accepting foreign currency?

If not then following RJs logic he can pay with that as well.

 

[sheff1]

If I was in your position, I would definately have bought a ticket from the office in Manchester before boarding where the acceptance of these payment methods is less of a grey area.

There is no grey area with National Transport Tokens though and RJ states it is these he attempted to pay with in the first instance.

 

[RJ]

we do get given information with "holes" in it. But as I don't have anywhere near enough time to read half the literature that some of these guys/gals do it does not surprise me.

However words are just words and experience counts for a lot, I would trust my experience (like yourself 10 years on the railway) and maybe on this occasion we are wrong, but as in a depot of 150 guards alone who have never once mentioned any passenger asking to pay by Postal order or Travellers cheque I would presume it is rarer then a legitamate Dodo sighting. So he may be right and he has now found another loophole to make even more guards life hard work because he gets a buzz from it. good on him! I can sleep safe in my bed knowing that certain people get a thrill from being clever and havinf so much free time to read all the small print..time for bed for me, I have a life that requires sleep before getting all normal folk from A to B as quickly and as safely as possible, but fear not! I now know I can get someone trying to be awkward and purposely paying with methods of payment that don't actually exist on the equipment that we are issued!

With the greatest due respect, it's the guards that are making things difficult for themselves.

I know I'm right about the validity of my tickets. Every single time, I politely explain why they are valid and if necessary, make reference to specific conditions or bring up the relevant documents on my laptop. I do everything I possibly can as a passenger to assist the guard with seeing things from my perspective.

When there is a difference of opinion, what else do you suggest I do in such circumstances order to not be seen as a difficult passenger?

 

[ANorthernGuard]

In this case, RJ was not trying to be awkward. He had misplaced his wallet and had no other payment methods to hand. The shortcomings in your Avantix machines are not of the passenger's concern.

From what I have read on other threads he thrives on it and no the Avantix isn't the passengers concern, however the only way around that officially would have to be a TIR or a UFN (with the reason written on it).

 

[maniacmartin]

Does it mention accepting foreign currency?

If not then following RJs logic he can pay with that as well.

We have already established previously in this thread that Traveller's Cheques, Postal Orders and National Transport Tokens are deemed by National Rail's website to be

accepted as methods of payments at National Rail stations and retail outlets. They also apply to paying on-train when no opportunity to purchase beforehand existed.

If you have a problem with that, I suggest your TOC raises it with ATOC/RSP.

On foreign currency, all NRES says is

Foreign currency

Most train companies will not accept foreign bank notes.

... which is a very vague statement. By referring to notes specifically, it implies to me that some TOCs will accept foreign coinage, but it doesn't implicitly say this, nor does it detail which TOCs.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

With the greatest due respect, it's the guards that are making things difficult for themselves.

I know I'm right about the validity of my tickets. Every single time, I politely explain why they are valid and if necessary, make reference to specific conditions or bring up the relevant documents on my laptop. I do everything I possibly can as a passenger to assist the guard with seeing things from my perspective.

When there is a difference of opinion, what else do you suggest I do in such circumstances order to not be seen as a difficult passenger?

I have no problem whatsoever with ANYONE attempting to save money. HOWEVER do you realise how many different restrictions apply to so many different tickets, whether it is b1-b6, I5 etc etc etc (and those are just the normal day to day ones). Why on earth are Guards being the ones that are being awkward, If you bring 3 or 4 different tickets on to a train for one journey how the hell is it possible to check all the validities? Do we just give you the benefit of the doubt? in some cases maybe, its not down to the guards who you love to target, its down to the impossible ticketing situation we have in this country, the guards do there best with the knowledge they are trained with, with the experience they build over the years and what limited details are on the Avantix.

 

[maniacmartin]

Do we just give you the benefit of the doubt?

If there is no time or resources to check the restrictions, then I think that's all you can realistically do, unless the passenger is heading for a major/gated station where staff there can deal with the complex query. (And yes I too see how revenue could be lost)

On a side note, newer ticket machine software now print the restriction code in the bottom right of the corner of the ticket, so soon all your TOC will need to do is supply a booklet with each restriction code and what it means and hopefully peak/offpeak disputes will be able to be resolved much easier.

ATOC are also working on a replacement for the Routeing Guide which will be much easier and quicker to consult, although whether it'll be made easily available to front-line onboard staff is another matter.

 

[the sniper]

Why on earth are Guards being the ones that are being awkward, If you bring 3 or 4 different tickets on to a train for one journey how the hell is it possible to check all the validities? Do we just give you the benefit of the doubt?

I seem to remember from one of RJ's other threads that this is what EMT have instructed their staff to do... As such he presumably has carte blanche on their trains to hold whatever ticket he likes, though nobody would know whether his tickets were valid or not anyway, so it doesn't really make any difference!

I'm not saying that RJ holds invalid tickets, but he presumably could on EMT if the above is true and he wanted to.

 

[6Gman]

I'm in danger of being on both sides here but I agree with Northern Guard that it's not the fault of on-train staff that ticketing rules can be unclear (to say the least), but neither is it the passenger's fault.

I'm in the happy position that my tickets are virtually always straightforward - free pass, or p.t. open/day return. But even then odd things can happen, such as a Virgin booking clerk asking for my wife's photo i.d. and insisting that retired staff require such i.d.

 

[RJ]

I have no problem whatsoever with ANYONE attempting to save money. HOWEVER do you realise how many different restrictions apply to so many different tickets, whether it is b1-b6, I5 etc etc etc (and those are just the normal day to day ones). Why on earth are Guards being the ones that are being awkward, If you bring 3 or 4 different tickets on to a train for one journey how the hell is it possible to check all the validities? Do we just give you the benefit of the doubt? in some cases maybe, its not down to the guards who you love to target, its down to the impossible ticketing situation we have in this country, the guards do there best with the knowledge they are trained with, with the experience they build over the years and what limited details are on the Avantix.

I don't understand why this has to be seen as a fight. My only objective is to save money on travel. I board trains with valid tickets, I do anticipate that questions may be asked given their unusual nature and without fail, I will explain why the tickets are valid if the guard is prepared to listen. In an ideal world, all would simply pass my tickets and move on. If I'm given the benefit of the doubt, or "let off," I will always say thank you - you'll never find me arguing the toss for the sake of it as I dislike conflict.

Many guards I have come across have never come across the concept of a restriction code - they only know about what is advertised to the public with respect to peak and off peak. So when I say that the restriction code on the ticket permits it to be used on that train, they genuinely haven't got a clue what I'm talking about.

Similarly, many I have encountered do not appreciate the status or significance of the Conditions of Carriage and will say that it has no relevance to ticketing matters.

So when I try to refer to these things, it's not to catch them out or try and feel superior, or victimise them. I'm simply trying to explain why my tickets are valid. Again, how do I go about this without it seeming that I'm "victimising" them?

 

[VauxhallandI]

I don't understand why this has to be seen as a fight. My only objective is to save money on travel. I board trains with valid tickets, I do anticipate that questions may be asked given their unusual nature and without fail, I will explain why the tickets are valid if the guard is prepared to listen. In an ideal world, all would simply pass my tickets and move on. If I'm given the benefit of the doubt, or "let off," I will always say thank you - you'll never find me arguing the toss for the sake of it as I dislike conflict.

Many guards I have come across have never come across the concept of a restriction code - they only know about what is advertised to the public with respect to peak and off peak. So when I say that the restriction code on the ticket permits it to be used on that train, they genuinely haven't got a clue what I'm talking about.

Similarly, many I have encountered do not appreciate the status or significance of the Conditions of Carriage and will say that it has no relevance to ticketing matters.

So when I try to refer to these things, it's not to catch them out or try and feel superior, or victimise them. I'm simply trying to explain why my tickets are valid. Again, how do I go about this without it seeming that I'm "victimising" them?

Very difficult, when some people enjoy being the king of their little castle they find it difficult to swallow the fact they might not know everything especially if it comes from one of their minions and not another member of royalty.