Left stranded by TPE

[martinsh]

. By referring to notes specifically, it implies to me that some TOCs will accept foreign coinage, but it doesn't implicitly say this, nor does it detail which TOCs.

Heathrow Express perhaps ?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

And the National Transport Tokens...? I also offered those as a method of payment and they were rejected.

There is no grey area with National Transport Tokens though and RJ states it is these he attempted to pay with in the first instance.

I agree. They are valid.
That is precisely my reading of the applicable documents.

. . . do you realise how many different restrictions apply to so many different tickets, whether it is b1-b6, I5 etc etc etc (and those are just the normal day to day ones). Why on earth are Guards being the ones that are being awkward, If you bring 3 or 4 different tickets on to a train for one journey how the hell is it possible to check all the validities? Do we just give you the benefit of the doubt? in some cases maybe, its not down to the guards who you love to target, its down to the impossible ticketing situation we have in this country, the guards do there best with the knowledge they are trained with, with the experience they build over the years and what limited details are on the Avantix.

What a refreshingly pragmatic post in this thread!

I've said it before and will say it again - I could never for a moment do your job, and struggle to understand how anyone could cope with the range of challenges that anyone on the front line of a pubic-facing position are presented with every day.

Nevertheless, I do find it reasonable, for everyone's, benefit, to wish for a clearer, simpler, and better communicated framework within which all staff, passengers, manangement and, ahem, interferring Departments, can carry on their business. This is the unnecessary challenge you face: "the impossible ticketing situation we have . . . ".
There is really no rational justification for lack of clarity and for lack of consistency other than the industry's failure to manage and regulate itself.

My respect for all front-line staff is well-earned, but the Kafkaesque position of referrng to inconsistent, obscure and unfamiliar documents to clarify the conditions which apply to a trivial journey by rail is not something that any of us should be proud of.
I regret that this thread has become so acrimonious - I don't beleive that anyone who has contributed to this debate merits any criticism, but I am sure that any criticism would be better directed to the industry's own appointed Association, which, after 15 years, still leaves us with a convoluted and inpenetrable framework which even its own members cannot interpret and apply consistently.

There is blame to be attributed (following this thread), but it should not be directed towards the passenger, the staff, not the other posters on here.

 

[Lewisham2221]

I have no problem whatsoever with ANYONE attempting to save money. HOWEVER do you realise how many different restrictions apply to so many different tickets, whether it is b1-b6, I5 etc etc etc (and those are just the normal day to day ones). Why on earth are Guards being the ones that are being awkward, If you bring 3 or 4 different tickets on to a train for one journey how the hell is it possible to check all the validities? Do we just give you the benefit of the doubt? in some cases maybe, its not down to the guards who you love to target, its down to the impossible ticketing situation we have in this country, the guards do there best with the knowledge they are trained with, with the experience they build over the years and what limited details are on the Avantix.

I don't think any of us are expecting every guard/RPI/gateline assistant across the land to be able to, at a glance, determine the validity of every ticket that they are presented with. Anybody who does expect such is quite clearly living in cloud cuckoo land and the sooner they land back in the real world the better.

The argument arises when it falls to the passenger, having already spent good money on a perfectly valid, but perhaps slightly obscure, ticket to prove that their ticket is valid in order to avoid being charged for a new ticket/penalty fared/reported for prosecution.

 

[Max]

I don't think any of us are expecting every guard/RPI/gateline assistant across the land to be able to, at a glance, determine the validity of every ticket that they are presented with. Anybody who does expect such is quite clearly living in cloud cuckoo land and the sooner they land back in the real world the better.

The argument arises when it falls to the passenger, having already spent good money on a perfectly valid, but perhaps slightly obscure, ticket to prove that their ticket is valid in order to avoid being charged for a new ticket/penalty fared/reported for prosecution.

Indeed. You can only ever deliver service to a customer to the best of your knowledge. The most important thing in my mind is to make an effort to listen to what the customer has to say and try and find out the correct information. The worst thing you can do is simply assume that something is wrong/invalid, without first checking that this is the case.

 

[sheff1]

Indeed. You can only ever deliver service to a customer to the best of your knowledge. The most important thing in my mind is to make an effort to listen to what the customer has to say and try and find out the correct information. The worst thing you can do is simply assume that something is wrong/invalid, without first checking that this is the case.

Quite. And, as I said in a post which has mysteriously disappeared, if in doubt give the benefit of that doubt to the passenger ... if desired a TIR can be completed for investigation by those with access to all the relevant documentation etc.

 

[E&W Lucas]

A few years ago, before the advent of cctv and political correctness, I'm sure those nice people in the BTP, would have been able to "resolve this at the local level"!

 

[Lewisham2221]

Quite. And, as I said in a post which has mysteriously disappeared, if in doubt give the benefit of that doubt to the passenger ... if desired a TIR can be completed for investigation by those with access to all the relevant documentation etc.

Indeed. As a bus driver, if I know that a passenger has presented an invalid ticket/pass I will refuse to accept it. However, if I'm unsure as to the validity of a ticket/pass I will accept it until such time that I am able to confirm whether it is or isn't valid.

A few years ago, before the advent of cctv and political correctness, I'm sure those nice people in the BTP, would have been able to "resolve this at the local level"!

What's that even supposed to mean? :roll:

 

[soil]

This thread seems to be a mud slinging exercise from certain quarters, with an attempt to see how much will stick.

The question of the complexity of restrictions codes and permitted routes is irrelevant to this thread, which concerns a railcard discounted ticket for which rj did not have a railcard.

Further to that, I have to say I don't like the implication that train staff can't possibly be expected to know that an off-peak return, for example, might have no restrictions, and that it's for the passenger to prove beyond all reasonable doubt and within the limits of the guard's patience and autocratic tendencies, that any given ticket is valid.

 

[E&W Lucas]

The BTP are busy people. I am dismayed that the OP allowed the situation to escalate, to the extent that they became involved. Just back down, accept the UFN, and sort it out later.
There is an offence of wasting Police Time.

 

[yorkie]

The BTP are busy people. I am dismayed that the OP allowed the situation to escalate, to the extent that they became involved. Just back down, accept the UFN, and sort it out later.
There is an offence of wasting Police Time.

It was the rail staff who called the BTP, not RJ, so your dismay appears to be directed at the wrong party. RJ did accept the request for payment, it does not appear a UFN was given as an option though.

 

[Lewisham2221]

The BTP are busy people. I am dismayed that the OP allowed the situation to escalate, to the extent that they became involved. Just back down, accept the UFN, and sort it out later.
There is an offence of wasting Police Time.

If anyone was wasting police time it would apply to the person who called the police in the first place. In this case the guard/RPI. I do believe from reading earlier posts in this thread that an UFN was never 'offered'. I'm sure RJ would have been happy to accept an UFN and settle/argue the case afterwards, once he'd been reunited with his wallet.

Edit - Beaten to it, just, by Yorkie.

 

[Yew]

There is blame to be attributed (following this thread), but it should not be directed towards the passenger, the staff, not the other posters on here.

Possibly the ineffectual organisation known as Passenger focus? Ideally it would be as strong as ATOC.

 

[bb21]

I think we are straying into areas that are of little relevance to the original case. The central issues are clear. The OP has had his say and I believe all sides have put their arguments across. This thread is therefore locked until we receive updates from the OP regarding further progress.

If anyone still has significant contribution to make to this discussion then please contact the staff team.

 

[RJ]

A while ago, there was an incident that occurred. It involve me travelling from Liverpool to Manchester Oxford Road. During the course of that journey, Northern Rail contacted me to inform me that I had dropped my ticket wallet and it was being held at the ticket office in Liverpool. I returned to Liverpool immediately and along the way, was asked to pay an excess fare on top of the railcard discounted ticket I presented as my railcard was in the ticket wallet. I have a pouch in my bag containing various methods of payment acceptable on the railways and explained the situation, offering these. They were not accepted and my tickets were withdrawn, but with no paperwork given and no request for my name or address being made. The police met the train at Liverpool and were told by the RPO that I was aggressive on board the train and refusing to pay the fare. My ticket wallet was collected on my behalf by a BTP officer and returned to me, but I was refused travel back on that TPE service. The ticket that was withdrawn was never given back to me and I was left with no evidence of having that ticket.

I lodged an articulate official complaint the morning following the incident. A full investigation was launched on that basis.

The investigation concluded that I was telling the truth. Presumably it was checked with the person at Northern Rail who had found my ticket wallet. I received an apology and I will be compensated with respect to the ticket that was withdrawn. It was said that revenue protection staff are urged to show discretion and empathy where it is clear that the passenger is not attempting to defraud them. It is important that one is in possession of the facts before drawing a conclusion against a passenger.

It will come as a disappointment to some people that the matter has been deemed as concluded, on both sides. It was recognised that I was honest and cooperative throughout the incident and that I was right with respect to acceptable payment methods. It was understood why the RPO chose to reject them as I'm the first person in the history of the franchise to have tendered Postal Orders at least, with the others infrequently seen. It was recognised as a training issue which will be addressed.

As a direct consequence of the enquires I made in relation to this incident, the wording with regards to payment methods on the National Rail Enquires website was changed very promptly and also reportedly within The Manual;

Payment methods page on the 7th February 2013.
Payment methods page now.

Most notable is the downgrading of the inferred universal acceptance of the Postal Order, to it now being shown as accepted at the discretion of the retailer. It was also confirmed that all retailers of Rail Products are obliged to accept cash when legal tender, certain types of card, warrants, Rail Travel Vouchers and National Transport Tokens. That includes retailers who are selling tickets on board trains.

I have repeatedly seen staff state that in xx years of service, they have never come across of these things, which is fair enough. Whilst I do respect those with experience, complacency with knowledge is not a good thing, especially with something as complex as the ticketing system. If you tell me that you have 35 years experience as a ticket inspector then say that the Conditions of Carriage has no relevance to the validity of tickets, what does that say about the quality of the knowledge? It is also potentially embarrassing when standing by this kind of misconception in front of various colleagues. There is something to be said for double checking things when a passenger presents a situation one may have had no reason to come across before.

I don't wish to pass further comment on the actions of the RPO. I accept TPE's apologies as sincere and wish to put this particular incident behind me. I don't bear grudges against anyone.

I never did finish the story of what happened on the day. After the service left, the BTP assisted me with getting home, because they realised that I was genuine and not the aggressive fare evader they were told they would be dealing with. They stated that I had not committed an offence, apologised for choosing not to take my word over the RPO's and asked how they could help me. After having witnessed my ticket being taken away, the day was saved when the BTP officer got East Midlands Trains to agree to pass me from Liverpool to Nottingham.

 

[soil]

The downgrading of Postal Orders seems sensible. I understand that you held them as an annoyance when staff tried to force you to buy a replacement ticket for an existing valid ticket. Obviously that particular avenue is no longer open. One would hope, but doubts, that staff will in their turn be less likely to reject valid tickets.

 

[RJ]

Before the discussion goes down that road - I am creating a separate thread for people to comment on my personal travel arrangements - something only tangentially related to this incident.

In the case of this incident, it was being used in emergency due to me not holding my payment cards, not for any other ulterior purpose.

 

[soil]

I understand that your purpose in paying the Post Office around 10% to buy a Postal Order was to serve as an annoyance factor. It isn't really surprising that few or no other people choose to pay with Postal Orders, since they are an expensive anachronism.

That you happened to have no other means of payment on this occasion having lost your wallet doesn't change the fact that training staff to accept Postal Orders, which understandably nobody ever used, is a waste of TOC funds.

 

[RJ]

I use them for other purposes - to pay for data requests and other services I need to pay for by post when I don't have my cheque book to hand.

The issue isn't just about Postal Orders - it's about all methods of payment that there is an obligation to accept. I also detailed how I was told that only cash and card were accepted. Some TOCs don't realise at all that they have publications and policies which do not comply with their franchise obligations and would sooner have those corrected than face penalties or improvement plans. I don't go looking for these things so I can complain about them - but when I've unexpectedly been adversely affected by them, it's only fair that the TOC is informed and given a chance to put things right.

 

[soil]

Well it's a bit confusing; I know you gave more detail on your tendered payment methods in your other post, but about half your OP here is given over to Postal Orders.

My view is that they should ensure that valid payment methods are (now) accepted, but that anachronistic ones, such as Postal Orders can be safely removed.

Clearly they have acted on one side of the issue - viz. reducing passenger rights (albeit ones that weren't ever really exercised), but will they act on the other?

 

[richw]

A Postal Order can be cheaper than getting your bank to do you a cheque if you dont have a cheque book facility.
Santander charge £20 to do you a cheque, A Postal Order is 10% charge, so anything under £200 its cheaper than a cheque.

 

[transportphoto]

A Postal Order can be cheaper than getting your bank to do you a cheque if you dont have a cheque book facility.
Santander charge £20 to do you a cheque, A Postal Order is 10% charge, so anything under £200 its cheaper than a cheque.

Even cheaper still as Postal Order charges are capped at £12.50 - RJ, can I ask what form the compensation takes?

TP

 

[RJ]

RTVs to the value of the return ticket that was withdrawn.

 

[WillPS]

RJ, did the TOC inform you that the wording on the NR website would change as a result of your complaint?

I ask because I once referenced the NR website with an IRCAS appeal; the appeal was accepted and I got a form response from EMT. I thought it was rather rude that they did not explain nor apologise for the redaction (a further letter, pointing this out to them, yielded neither but did bring suitable compensation).

 

[RJ]

No - I communicated directly with ATOC with regards to the potentially misleading wording on the NRE site, it was changed by the next day.

Stock responses are the order of the day unfortunately! Business departments who have to process a continual stream of complaints from customers will streamline the process by issuing such letters as it cuts down on costs. I do tend to get personalised responses from TOCs however due to the way I write.

 

[WillPS]

No - I communicated directly with ATOC with regards to the potentially misleading wording on the NRE site, it was changed by the next day.

Stock responses are the order of the day unfortunately! Business departments who have to process a continual stream of complaints from customers will streamline the process by issuing such letters as it cuts down on costs. I do tend to get personalised responses from TOCs however due to the way I write.

Do you tend to get such letters from EMT? I tend to get stock answers, sometimes edited slightly, regardless - ignoring any ordered list of requests I might write.

Here's an example - I wrote to EMT, stating that I often travel on their HST service between Langley Mill and Alfreton asking how I'm expected to pay for a ticket for this journey if I don't see a member of staff (likely). Here's their response:

Dear Mr Squires
Thank you for your letter dated 25 May 2012. I am concerned that no-one checked your ticket on your recent journey with us. This should have been done by the Train Manager.

Sometimes it is difficult for us to check everybody's ticket, particularly if the train is very busy or you have made a short journey. However, our aim is to check all of our customers' tickets on every service we run. To help us meet this aim, we have a Revenue Protection team who travel on our trains at random and help our staff on board to check people's tickets. We do
realise that there are still times when this does not happen, and we are now looking at new ways of making sure that we check all of our c stomers' train tickets including the installation of ticket barriers at our main stations.

However the fast ticket machine at Alfreton will allow you to purchase tickets from other station. To do this you must select more options.

Thank you for bringing this to our attention. I have passed your comments on to our on-board team as they are monitoring this issue.

Yours sincerely
xx
Customer Relations Officer

That to me seems to be a form response, which might be suitable for a season ticket holder who has complained that their ticket is never checked (as we often see on here), but is not particularly pertinent to my question.

The second paragraph looks to me to be personalised, but is poorly written and factually incorrect.

 

[RJ]

No, I've never had a stock response like that from them. The kind of complaints I put through are of an unique and highly detailed manner. As I'm not the average type of passenger, they won't have any stock answers which would remotely address any of the points I raise.

That response does look like one which would address a complaint about lack of ticket inspections on short journeys, but not one on how to obtain a ticket. I didn't realise their TVMs offered tickets from other stations - I will have to investigate this as it may just save me a whole heap of hassle.

 

[WillPS]

That response does look like one which would address a complaint about lack of ticket inspections on short journeys, but not one on how to obtain a ticket. I didn't realise their TVMs offered tickets from other stations - I will have to investigate this as it may just save me a whole heap of hassle.

They don't. Or at least, if the one in Alfreton does, it's unique amongst SWT/EMTs.

 

[Urban Gateline]

Do you tend to get such letters from EMT? I tend to get stock answers, sometimes edited slightly, regardless - ignoring any ordered list of requests I might write.

Here's an example - I wrote to EMT, stating that I often travel on their HST service between Langley Mill and Alfreton asking how I'm expected to pay for a ticket for this journey if I don't see a member of staff (likely). Here's their response:


That to me seems to be a form response, which might be suitable for a season ticket holder who has complained that their ticket is never checked (as we often see on here), but is not particularly pertinent to my question.

The second paragraph looks to me to be personalised, but is poorly written and factually incorrect.

However there is a ticket office at Alfreton, open quite reasonable hours 7 days a week, so if you are unable to buy on board, you can buy before exiting the station, not ideal but it would be the right thing to do!

 

[WillPS]

However there is a ticket office at Alfreton, open quite reasonable hours 7 days a week, so if you are unable to buy on board, you can buy before exiting the station, not ideal but it would be the right thing to do!

My enquiry was specifically regarding the 1 of the 2/3 evening HST services; all of which fall after Alfreton's ticket office closes.

 

[Qwerty133]

Do you tend to get such letters from EMT? I tend to get stock answers, sometimes edited slightly, regardless - ignoring any ordered list of requests I might write. .

It's not just EMT that send inaccurate and unhelpful stock responses this is one example that I have relieved recently from XC

Thank you for getting in touch.

I am sorry that you had such an uncomfortable journey with us because the train was so crowded.

Because we operate a 'walk on service' any passenger can board a train at any time so we can't always be certain how busy any particular train will be. However, I can assure you that your safety will never be compromised. The train manager will regularly assess how many passengers are on-board throughout the journey and when on the platform at each station and stop more passengers boarding as appropriate.

Many passengers would prefer to stand rather than being made to wait for the next train and this deems no risk to the safety of those on-board. But I appreciate this can make the train feel cramped and your journey uncomfortable. We do look closely at the likely numbers of passengers on each train as part of our timetable review. Where it is possible to match the number of seats to the number of passengers we will make those changes. I will certainly make sure that the information you provided forms part of this review.


You are entitled to claim travel vouchers if you are unable to take your reserved seat and have to stand during your journey for more than 15 minutes. To make your claim please attach a copy of your tickets, along with your journey information (date of travel, departure time, length of delay) in reply to this email. We'll also need to an address to send the vouchers to.

Alternatively, you can post your tickets to us at the address below quoting your reference number XC-0121210-BHC.

Customer Relations
Freepost RRXU-HUEC-GLLY
5th Floor Cannon House
18 The Priory Queensway
Birmingham
B4 6BS

It's a free post address so you don't need a stamp and as soon as we receive your tickets we will process your claim. For more information please visit www.crosscountrytrains.co.uk.

In regards to your query about offpeak fares I will pass this on to our planning and revenue teams to see what can be done for you.


Kind regards

Richard Campbell
Customer Relations Consultant
CrossCountry

Please rate my response at www.crosscountrytrains.co.uk/crsurvey

CrossCountry
5th Floor, Cannon House
18 The Priory Queensway
Birmingham
B4 6BS

Email: [email protected]
Phone: 08447 369 123 (option 3)
Fax: 0121 200 6005

Thing is that I was travelling on a un reservable service and I had suggested inprovements that would make it less busy. And the service in question had been consistently overcrowded for at least 3 timetables.