Leigh rejoining the railnetwork

[telstarbox]

And name a goverment that will backstep from a £170mil busway, spending £190mil+ to install a railway that would have cost £190mil to do right in the first place.

The busway can be used for buses then upgraded to a Metrolink route in the future if required, and has been specified as such.

And Leigh already has direct links to Manchester by bus...
And Salford by bus...

And to extend a bus service from Piccadilly / St Anne's onto MRI wouldn't be any hassle at all...

The dedicated section west of the East Lancs Road will reduce the bus travel time from Leigh to Manchester. At the moment it takes an hour by bus or bus and train.

There is a place for buses and trains - they serve different purposes. For example patients going to hospital may find a single direct bus much easier than a train to Victoria, walk, and bus. Have a look at the TWA application (especially Section 4).

 

[Nym]

Yes, it's possible to upgrade a busway to metrolink, but they won't, and where will it connect into the Metrolink Network, if you run via Eccles you're pushing an hour anyway by Metrolink.

And between the A575 and Leigh (Where dedicated infrastructure would be) it isn't that insanely busy on the E Lancs Road anyway, it's when you get past the A575 that it goes stupid (where all the traffic lights start)

And if you want to spend millions on a busway to get passengers to MRI easier, just extend the express buses there via St Peter's Square.

 

[Phil6219]

SO the busway that will use the A580 one of the most congested routes into Manchester is a good idea?

Thank you! This is the point so many of us have, what a fantastic idea it would be to reduce an already over-congested trunk route by a lane in each direction for an under used bus route. It's the M4 bus lane all over again, albeit without a commotion from the public. Just look at the insane traffic problems caused by the construction/destruction of the Crescent/Chapel street, where they are reducing it from two lanes plus a bus lane in each direction to a bus lane and a single lane in each direction. Correct me if I have been misinformed here but didn't they spend tens of millions in widening that bleeding road in the 1980s? You know with the whole concept of widening the road onto a bridge like structure along the crescent?

Default
I know we love trains on here but there are merits to the busway too. It'll serve some of the poorest places in the UK and give them direct connections to Manchester city centre (for jobs), Salford and Manchester unis (for education) and the MRI (for health).

Will it though?

A few points with that;

1 - (and the biggest one at that) the predominant bus company using that busway will be worstgroup who have about as much ability at running a quarter decent bus service as I have in tap dancing skills. They will not run a service to MRI because people will want to go there from here (been in that position myself) nor will they run extra services going into Salford Proper (not just the precinct) but best of all they will see the busway as a perfect excuse to bump up the price of tickets too.

2 - A rail link will give Leigh and the surrounding area a faster and better transport link with not just Manchester but the rest of the country, not to mention Liverpool, Wigan, Preston which would obviously not be connected via the busway.

I am sorry but the busway is the most insane idea I have heard of, my experience might you ask? I lived in Crawley and they have a half finished busway which has come in well over budget, caused traffic problems like no end (and not even on trunk routes) and is just a general waste of space. In fact the only good thing about the damn thing is a small section of un-guided section which is on Haslett Avenue East where the traffic lights are leading to the roundabout, a bus only lane opens up to let the buses go around the lights, the same thing has just popped out by Salford Crescent too...

For the record, I don't hate buses but when you rely on "that company" to get you to and from work you may tend to despise the new private companies. Bring back GM!!!

Phil

 

[Nym]

I use South Lancs Travel or Maytree Travel to get into town here... Lucky me

And finally some backup!

Guided busways do work in some places, Leeds comes to mind...

But dumping everything on the A580 just where it gets busy is thick, if we're going to do anything to the A580 corridor it needs to be:

Grade separate between the A575 and Albion Way, widening Albion Way to D3 in both directions, with a lane gain & drop to Liverpool Road, if possible within the layout, no lights to get onto Albion Road, from the M602 junction to Albion Road, either...

Extend the M602 to meet the A57M, no junctions between Albion Way and the A57M/Manchester Salford IRR, or...
Widen the A57 to D3, provide a better link to Albion Way and grade seperate the junction at the A57M/MSIRR.

And even more, re-widen ChapelSoddingSt! But that won't happen that quickly, so it would be better to upgrade Albion Way, Liverpool Road and Regent Road to take traffic away from Albion Way onto these routes.

But any more traffic on Regent Road will need not only D3 widening, but will require the M602 being extended and grade seperated linked into the A57M with gain&drop junctions at either end for alternative routes.

Either way, 2tph into Victoria is better than a busway. And that could be extended to anything up to 4tph... with the Windsor Br Jcn - Victoria services being able to take anything up to 12tph sensibly through Platforms 5 and 6, with everything being pushed through to Rochdale or Stalybridge.

12tph would be used up as.. something like..
3tph Leigh
3tph Wigan via Atherton
2tph Wigan via Bolton
2tph Blackpool via Bolton
2tph Blackburn via Bolton

ie. 6tph to Walkden and 6tph to Bolton.

 

[WatcherZero]

Thank you! This is the point so many of us have, what a fantastic idea it would be to reduce an already over-congested trunk route by a lane in each direction for an under used bus route.

It wont though, they are ADDING a bus lane to the East Lancs, not redesignating an existing lane.

 

[Nym]

i think not, in most pinch points on the elr there isn't space for it to be an extra lane, the only choice is to steal existing ones

 

[table38]

i think not, in most pinch points on the elr there isn't space for it to be an extra lane, the only choice is to steal existing ones

Phew, my brain interpreted that as East Lancs Railway for a second there

 

[Nym]

Would it be better if I refered to it as the L&SELR?

Or simply A580(M)?

 

[table38]

"Interestingly" I think it was the country's first Dual Carriageway.

 

[WatcherZero]

i think not, in most pinch points on the elr there isn't space for it to be an extra lane, the only choice is to steal existing ones

They will be pinching the hard shoulder in a few narrow points (like they are doing for the M25 and M6 upgrades) but it will be additional lane for the vast majority of the route according to plans.

 

[Nym]

There ISN'T a hard shoulder on the East Lancs Road, and the pinch points I'm refering to are the world's thickest placement of traffic lights between the M61 and A6 on the A580 through Salford. There isn't any space either side at the junctions thanks to them being D3+1AP spec, unless you want to steal the footpaths, or a lane from traffic.

And for several parts near the M60, you're up to everyone's front door...!

For the amount of housing you'd need to clear to keep D3 and add a guided or non-guided bus lane, ie. widening the A580 to the same size as D4AP-NHS standardm you'd need to clear about 80 private homes, or remove all of their access, if you're going to start demolishing housing, why not demolish the housing on the route from Paitcroft to Walkden and re-instate the Leigh railway line through that way?

Or you could not inconvenice any housing, not have to upgrade any A580 (as part of this project), not need any special buses, not have a busway that can't be used by normal traffic, and not have any of this hassle, by simply re-building the line into Leigh, get the Town Centre penitration by running it into the opersite side of the shopping centre car park to the bus station (possibly moving the bus station to this side too, or add multi storey car park to compensate), and knit it into the Atherton Loop at Walkden, tight but do-able curve, and if TfGM is fronting the money for it, they can pay for it to be built and lease maintenance out to Network Rail (in a similar way to the likes of the East London Line) they could also pick up their pocket a bit more and wire the route to Walkden and Leigh, meaning electric traction on the route. But the bill of £170mil for the busway, and £190mil for the railway as I discribed, the're both very expensive projects, but why not spend the extra £20mil and do it properly?

If you want the 'cheap' option, it's putting a station ON the Chat Moss and stopping all the stoppers there (2tph Liverpool, 2tph Wigan), on their way into Victoria, would be a much higher service level than any branch, and would not only serve Leigh and Atherton (by extending the 582 bus service, and some others, 582 diverted to Bolton Interchange and branded as 'Rail Link') it would also serve as a stupidly large Park and Ride for passengers into Wigan, Liverpool and Manchester, is nicely signed off the M6 via Lowton or the East Lancs as a P&R with free parking. Just look at how well Horwich Parkway does with 3tph, this would be similar journey times, and layout, but serve most of North Cheshire, Wigan and the M6, and cost a fraction of either of the other projects, I'm working on about £50mil to build the station, car park, and extend the A579 via this station to the A49 junction on the M6 as a S2WAP standard route, also providing a Lowton Bypass.

 

[WatcherZero]

You may not be aware of it but there are sliproads along most of the length, it is going to be right up against some peoples drives but thats the way it is in Liverpool.

 

[Nym]

I am fully aware of the state of affairs on the route of the A580 between the A575 and A6, it used to be my delivery route, and I can say with a high level of conviction, that a guided busway could not be added to this alignment without significantly compromising traffic flow (moreso than it already is!)

 

[snail]

I am fully aware of the state of affairs on the route of the A580 between the A575 and A6, it used to be my delivery route, and I can say with a high level of conviction, that a guided busway could not be added to this alignment without significantly compromising traffic flow (moreso than it already is!)

Do you think it's even remotely possible some people have better knowledge of how this could work than you do? The footprint of the A580 is pretty wide and could easily fit in a bus lane according to the back of the envelope I have in front of me.

 

[Nym]

So you could widen the A580 at Worsley Road junction then? Where the footpaths are already quite narrow and there is no central reservation space thanks to the filter lanes?

Not to mention the grade seperated junctions when you get down toward the A6..

So you could fit a bus lane on most of it, but not in some parts, so are you going to de-guide the buses and have them fight it out in Lane 3 and try and cross the filter lanes, or are you going to drop the A580 down to two lanes at the junctions?

 

[lancastrian]

I have driven along the East Lancs Road many times, a few of them at the euphemistically called 'rush hour'. At any time during the day it is a very busy road. IF you try and drive into Salford/Manchester between 7.30 - 9.30am it is extremely busy. I used to cycle into Manchester in the 1980's, and when I was on the ELR, I often beat many cars into the Salford Crecsent area.

The road, even with all the suposed 'improvements' over the years has not sloved the problems. It is so busy and congested that what should have happened is the daft decsion to close the Leigh loop from Kenyon Junction to Eccles. If that was still open then those people who live in Pennington, Leigh, Tyldesley, Boothstown, Worsley & Monton would have a decent Rail Service to both Manchester & Leigh.

It is a real pity that the various Governments over the years have allowed the trackbed to be blocked in various places, with housing and roads. Again typical shortsightedness of our suppose elected representatives.

 

[Nym]

Well, it would be about £3 - 5mil to buy the houses that are in the way I'd recon...

 

[lancastrian]

Well, it would be about £3 - 5mil to buy the houses that are in the way I'd recon...

Well that would be cheaper than building the misguided busway. Even with the cost of rebuilding the rail line, it certainly be much better value for money. And people would glide past all the traffic on the ELR by using the railway, plus trains could go to either Victoria or Piccadilly, or even further past those two stations.

 

[Nym]

They could via Walkden too, but if the're going via the Chat Moss, then theres the advantage of being able to use the bays they should be building to the West of Victoria on the Exchange campus, and the grade seperation they should be putting into place to take the Chat Moss - Deal St line over the top of Ordsall Lane Jcn.

Would be a lot of services running over the Chat Moss though, 12tph at my last count...

Say...
From Victoria
2tph Leigh via Eccles and Walkden
2tph Wigan via Paitcroft
2tph Liverpool Slow
2tph Liverpool Fast
1tph Chester

And from Oxford Road
1tph Scotland
1tph Chester
1tph Liverpool


So,
Buy up and demolish them new houses, say £10mil
New bridge over the M602 about £5-8mil
I beleive the M60 already has an underpass, if now, another £8mil for the bridge there
Bridge over the A580 junction, pre-tensioned concrete like all the others, £8mil
Buying up the industry between the end of the clear bit of line and the shopping centre, £3mil

Track, electrified, £1mil/mile puts it at about £30mil
Stations:
Leigh £4mil
Tyldsley £2mil
Neweatrth Road £2mil
Worsley £2mil
Worsley Road £2mil
Canal Bank / Monton Road £2mil
Additional platforms at Eccles £2mil

Include a generous overbudget thing and you're still well under £80mil

Opinion on costs?

Services would be 2tph into Victoria, possibly the odd one into Piccadilly.

Also, safeguard the route between Tyldsley and Wigan (Handy for diversions, and possibly a faster route to Wigan)

 

[WatcherZero]

So you could widen the A580 at Worsley Road junction then? Where the footpaths are already quite narrow and there is no central reservation space thanks to the filter lanes?

Not to mention the grade seperated junctions when you get down toward the A6..

So you could fit a bus lane on most of it, but not in some parts, so are you going to de-guide the buses and have them fight it out in Lane 3 and try and cross the filter lanes, or are you going to drop the A580 down to two lanes at the junctions?

Their only going to be guided on the former rail stretch, when on the East Lancs it will be a normal bus lane though their thinking of giving them the ability to control traffic lights at junctions to set priority.

 

[Nym]

soooo, removing a lane from the A580 then.... wouldn't it be cheaper to just build on the old trackbed as a normal S3 with a tidal bus lane, rather than messing around with guided?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Well, it would be about £3 - 5mil to buy the houses that are in the way I'd recon...

When these houses were built, what year was it and how many properties were involved? Would there not have been an official re-designation of the usage of the land, in order for house-building to occur. Surely the solicitors dealing with the sale of these houses would have had to read this particular information and to act in the best interests of both parties.

If you had to visit the occupiers of these properties, how would you argue your case of land change of use, including demolition, to them?

Reality has to enter into some debates eventually.

 

[Nym]

"Here, have twice what your property is worth if you leave..."

The fact they havn't been round long means that it's easyer to move people out of them, tends to be less sentemental attachment.

And last time I checked, most of Eccles is private or local association rented, landlords don't care...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Have you any grounds for supposing that the local authorities would be in favour of this particular route. Surely they were not aware that this route would be in conflict with their local area forward planning strategy, when this was being formulated, otherwise the planning permission for building these properties would have surely been rejected at that time.

I can well imagine the press "championing" the rights of the residents and a vigorous campaign being waged by an alliance of "like-minded" bodies.

 

[Nym]

Well the land was sold off by an LA that doesn't exist any more IIRC (GMC), who couldn't give a toss about heavy rail.

And now of course theres the problem of, it's demolishing housing in Salford for a railway line to Wigan, that won't be popular with Salford Council, and Wigan Council won't pick up their balls for a link to Manchester.

The main grounds to favour this route btw.

Links into the Chat Moss route, where with proper provision at Victoria station, will have oceans of capacity (Exchange platforms) and even without these, can take up to 12tph chat moss, 4tph Cord and 8tph Windsor Bridge without too much issue, 12tph per road is do-able, provided everything is a through service
The remainder of the trackbed is unmolested, and would only have two or three major crossings to make, and no sharp curves
The route could be electrified from Day 1, meaning better rolling stock
The branch isn't stupldly tight unlike the proposed link to Leigh Sports Village
The trackbed is nearly intact all the way to the Leigh TC Shopping Centre where the bus station is, the logical place for a transport interchange, short of a few industrial units.
Continuing from Tyldsley to Wigan will free up space on the further out sections of the Chat Moss and provide an alternative route to Wigan and the WCML, covering posessions for eachother.

And last but by no means least, it's proberbly the cheapest, thanks to needing the least perminant way work.

 

[snail]

So you could widen the A580 at Worsley Road junction then? Where the footpaths are already quite narrow and there is no central reservation space thanks to the filter lanes?

Not to mention the grade seperated junctions when you get down toward the A6..

So you could fit a bus lane on most of it, but not in some parts, so are you going to de-guide the buses and have them fight it out in Lane 3 and try and cross the filter lanes, or are you going to drop the A580 down to two lanes at the junctions?

The buses aren't going to be guided on the bus lanes. Junctions can be treated the same as on the A6 nearer Manchester, shared space with left turning traffic if the junction is narrow.

As for the A6 part, my guess is that buses will leave the A580 at its end in Irlams o'th' Height and go down the 'old' A6 like all the other buses do, rejoining the main road at the underpass in Pendleton. There are enough existing bus lanes to facilitate that (as any car driver knows!).

 

[Trevor]

Regarding the Mis-guided busway, I've been told that they are to build an extra bus lane next to the East Lancs, from Ellenbrook. However ordinary buses won't be able to use it, it will be for the guided buses only! Making a poor scheme even more ridiculous. I believe the costs of bring the railway down though Tyldesley to Leigh are prohibitive. So access to the Liverpool Manchester line is the only feasable way of giving Leigh people access to the rail network.

 

[yorksrob]

When these houses were built, what year was it and how many properties were involved? Would there not have been an official re-designation of the usage of the land, in order for house-building to occur. Surely the solicitors dealing with the sale of these houses would have had to read this particular information and to act in the best interests of both parties.

If you had to visit the occupiers of these properties, how would you argue your case of land change of use, including demolition, to them?

Reality has to enter into some debates eventually.

It depends. If they're Local Authority properties, you would gradually begin to move people away through not re-letting tenancies, as you would if you were doing an areal renewal. From Google Earth, they appear to be mid to late seventies.

 

[snail]

Include a generous overbudget thing and you're still well under £80mil

Opinion on costs?

All I will say is that Ordsall Chord is budgeted at £85m for <1Km of track. Treble your figures and you're getting closer. What's your timescale for this, given the endless public enquiries there are likely to be?

 

[yorksrob]

Isn't it fair to say that a lot of the costs associated with the Ordsall Chord will be integrating it into the signalling systems either end. If you have a much longer route which still only has a junction at each end, the costs per km are likely to be less. Add to that, all of the chord is likely to be on viaduct.