Leigh rejoining the railnetwork

[Nym]

The ordstall cord is not even remotely comparable to this project!

The ordstall cord is costing so much because of the amount of closures, viaduct, interference, consultancy and trackwork, plain track isn't that expensive, if you can think of a comparable project where it is mostly plain electrified track, and compare costs per mile, then come back with a justified argument, like i usually manage to muster up, if you're going to compare one project with another that bears no resemblance to it what so ever, and then say my costings make no sense because of this, then kindly sod off...

A comparable project by the way would be something like the Airdie to Bathgate Link...

PS: Trebble my figures and it's still cheaper than the guided bus way!

 

[tbtc]

Regarding the Mis-guided busway, I've been told that they are to build an extra bus lane next to the East Lancs, from Ellenbrook. However ordinary buses won't be able to use it, it will be for the guided buses only! Making a poor scheme even more ridiculous

Its fairly easy/ quick/ cheap to attach some guidewheels to *any* bus - you don't need a separate type of bus - you could put an Volvo Olympian/ Leyland National on a Guided Busway just as easily as a brand new Volvo Gemini/ Optare Solo...

(and IIRC the "guide wheels" can be swapped from one bus to another without too much difficulty)

 

[snail]

{Rudeness ignored}

A comparable project by the way would be something like the Airdie to Bathgate Link...

PS: Trebble my figures and it's still cheaper than the guided bus way!

Your £80m is more than is being quoted for the busway (link). I don't think comparing it to the Airdrie-Bathgate link is helping your argument either, that's come in at around £300 million (at 2006 prices).

 

[Phil6219]

GMPTE have got a fairly basic map showing where a new bus lane will be on the east lancs road, that being said it does not highlight the busway (as these "improvements" are independent of that scheme)

As you can see, an additional lane will be provided from the M602 to Moorside Road, where that will disappear as will a lane in each direction to make way for a bloody bus lane.

Phil

 

[telstarbox]

The ordstall cord is not even remotely comparable to this project!

The ordstall cord is costing so much because of the amount of closures, viaduct, interference, consultancy and trackwork, plain track isn't that expensive, if you can think of a comparable project where it is mostly plain electrified track, and compare costs per mile, then come back with a justified argument, like i usually manage to muster up, if you're going to compare one project with another that bears no resemblance to it what so ever, and then say my costings make no sense because of this, then kindly sod off...

Nym

There's no need to be rude like this. Your opinions about the merits of busway/heavy rail aren't the only valid opinions in existence and you're not the only person on this forum who deals with transport engineering and planning.

 

[Nym]

I know, but somone who makes a non sensical argument to say that I'm chatting **** is just plain irritating.

I'm not one to say that another valid opinion isn't valid, but like I said, when it's not even remotely comparable, and somone basically comes allong and says I'm thick by using something like the ordstall cord as an example, you can imagine how anoying it is against a reaearched argument.

And if you include the costs not counted as part of the actual 'busway' but that are nessesarry to make it work the project cost quickly gets up to £150mil+

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I would like to go back to the original posting on this thread, that states that Andy Burnham, MP for Leigh, organised and chaired the talks referred to in that posting. Andy Burnham has been the MP for Leigh since 2001 and held three Cabinet posts in the last Labour government. How much did he do as the sitting MP for Leigh to facilitate a possible rail link to Leigh, when the Labour party were in power? It is easy to suddenly be a leading light in the fight for this rail link, when he has no political input as a member of the Opposition.

 

[Nym]

OK, just some notes on the A-B Comparison...

Airdie - Bathgate had 15 miles of new track, Leigh - Paitcroft would be 8
AB had some 10 miles of track to upgarde and electrify on the operational railway that is always more expensive due to paying for closures etc.

Normalise by distance and you're getting a lot closer to the figures I came up with, proberbly somwhere between 100 and 120mil, if you can link it into walkden thats only 4 miles of new track, and 4 miles of upgrade, so will come in around the same kind of mark. (Including electification to Walkden)

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I note that the group, Transport for Leigh, referred to in the first posting, were quoted in the Leigh Journal on 29th August 2011 as being in favour of opening the old railway sidings at Kenyon would make this an ideal site for a new Parkside freight terminal. They were further quoted as saying:-

"A local station for Leigh delivers real benefits. It would be dreadful if all the efforts local people made to block "Parkside" were in vain should a similar development be built on the back of a station at Kenyon, supposedly serving the people of Leigh. It is quite clear from our research that a station at Kenyon isn't wanted by the people of Leigh. It has no advantages over car journey times to existing stations such as Daisy Hill, Glazebrook, Atherton and Birchwood"

I thought these comments should be looked at in comparison of their comments made in the first posting on this thread. Has anyone any comments on their views expressed above.

 

[snail]

I'm not one to say that another valid opinion isn't valid, but like I said, when it's not even remotely comparable, and somone basically comes allong and says I'm thick by using something like the ordstall cord as an example, you can imagine how anoying it is against a reaearched argument.

And if you include the costs not counted as part of the actual 'busway' but that are nessesarry to make it work the project cost quickly gets up to £150mil+

Exactly my point. I was using Ordsall as an example of the magnitude of rail infrastructure costs. As for the 'researched argument', you throw together a few numbers that support your case then a few posts later tell me it's comparable to Airdrie-Bathgate, which was 4 times more expensive. You then point out that Leigh is half the distance but somehow get the costs down by 2/3, without factoring in the future value (quoted costs are at 2006 prices, so you can add 20-30% to bring it up to date).

PS I never said you are thick, and you shouldn't take it that way. I just don't think your figures add up. I refer you to the last paragraph of your post: you think it's ok to add £60m to the busway but much smaller amounts to your own estimates.

 

[tbtc]

£8.8m for 500 meters of single track chord at Todmorden proves you can't simply use one project as a base for the costs of another (e.g. this one is half the size, so should only cost half as much)

 

[Nym]

Theres about a third of the work as A-B 8 miles of track compared to 15, and no re-doubling and electrifying on an operational railway...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

£8.8m for 500 meters of single track chord at Todmorden proves you can't simply use one project as a base for the costs of another (e.g. this one is half the size, so should only cost half as much)

When looking at projects, the Consultancy fees and similar other associated fixed-cost do not reduce on a pro-rata basis.

 

[yorksrob]

I note that the group, Transport for Leigh, referred to in the first posting, were quoted in the Leigh Journal on 29th August 2011 as being in favour of opening the old railway sidings at Kenyon would make this an ideal site for a new Parkside freight terminal. They were further quoted as saying:-

"A local station for Leigh delivers real benefits. It would be dreadful if all the efforts local people made to block "Parkside" were in vain should a similar development be built on the back of a station at Kenyon, supposedly serving the people of Leigh. It is quite clear from our research that a station at Kenyon isn't wanted by the people of Leigh. It has no advantages over car journey times to existing stations such as Daisy Hill, Glazebrook, Atherton and Birchwood"

I thought these comments should be looked at in comparison of their comments made in the first posting on this thread. Has anyone any comments on their views expressed above.

I'm inclined to agree with them. Leigh needs a station actually in Leigh rather than miles away. Where I disagree with them is that I think it should be a central location (which would require the trackbed about to be swallowed up by the busway), rather than a branch to the sports village.

 

[tbtc]

When looking at projects, the Consultancy fees and similar other associated fixed-cost do not reduce on a pro-rata basis.

There are a whole number of fixed/ variable costs which means comparing apples against oranges in threads like this is a waste of time.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Some questions.

Has TfGM dropped its silly Leigh Busway proposal ?

Although not connected to the (being electrified) Chat Moss route, would it be physically easier and / or cheaper to have a connection from Leigh via Tyldesley & former NCB trackbeds to somewhere near Walkden on the Manchester - Atherton line ?

The answer to your question about the Leigh Busway is a most emphatic......NO ! ! !

Please refer to the new thread "Large White Elephant spotted near Wigan" on the Metro/Light Rail/Other Transport forum, in which the first posting which is taken from the TfGM website Media Centre and was posted on 12th December 2011.