Leniency on Rail card use?

Robnw67

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My partner uses a mature student railcard to travel to college. This entitles discounted travel on trains after 9:59am. In order to ensure arrival on time, the only available train leaves at 9:57. Given that 99.9% of the journey (time and distance) will be undertaken after the 9:59am time limit, would there be any hope that those selling tickets would 'be generous' with the 9:59am rule? We know that purchasing online has no leeway. Would there be grounds for appeal if the train were more than 2 minutes late departing?:{
 
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island

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Before we get into that, is your partner’s fare under £12 after the reduction? If it’s £12 or more, there is no time restriction.
 

CreamNCookies

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Given that the terms and conditions state discounted travel on trains after 9:59am, 9:57am is before that time. I reckon if there were a ticket check, they would be on the lookout for people with railcards.
 

Bletchleyite

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Is it a stopping service? If so, it could well be worth splitting tickets at the first station the train calls at after 1000?

Also if they go daily a season ticket may be worth looking at.
 

Robnw67

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I guess it's one of those 'caught in a trap' scenarios. The ticket is from Preston to Blackburn = £5.70. Splitting: Preston to Lostock Hall £3.10 + Lostock Hall to Blackburn £5:10 so even with the rail card, the effect of splitting the ticket results in only pennies different. If the train were scheduled 2 minutes later: £2 difference - which builds up over a college year.
 

Bletchleyite

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I guess it's one of those 'caught in a trap' scenarios. The ticket is from Preston to Blackburn = £5.70. Splitting: Preston to Lostock Hall £3.10 + Lostock Hall to Blackburn £5:10 so even with the rail card, the effect of splitting the ticket results in only pennies different. If the train were scheduled 2 minutes later: £2 difference - which builds up over a college year.
Fundamentally Railcards are a leisure product and are not intended for commuting (to work or education), so the trap is totally intentional. Is this daily travel? If so a season ticket might be worth investigating.
 

Robnw67

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Fundamentally Railcards are a leisure product and are not intended for commuting (to work or education), so the trap is totally intentional. Is this daily travel? If so a season ticket might be worth investigating.
Travel is only 3 times per week and heavily dependent on Covid19 - if the college has to shut then the travel is not required for a period of 2 weeks+. It's quite a gamble to pay for a season ticket and then end up not using it half the time. I guess the only option is 'no option' and to 'suck it up'!
 

scrapy

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The Railcard T+C's that says the Railcard is valid from 10am, there is nothing to state the train has to be scheduled to depart from 10am. So you would be well within your rights to buy a discounted ticket and use it on the 09.57 as long as it's at least 3 minutes late.

Practically though it would need to be late enough that you can say for certain it will depart after this time and if buying at Preston would probably have to wait until 10am for the machines to sell it then get to the platform. If buying online as long as you buy an non advance ticket you would be within your rights to buy for the following service as that ticket would be valid as online booking engine would probably not sell you a discounted ticket for a late running 09.57. The 09.57 would usually be formed from the 09.50 arrival from Blackpool South, so that would probably have to be at least 10 mins late at Kirkham to be sure the 09.57 would leave late.

As to your original question about if you would have grounds for appeal in a 3 minutes late train had you bought the undiscounted ticket then sadly not, although you could claim delay repay should the train be late enough.
 
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Haywain

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Travel is only 3 times per week and heavily dependent on Covid19 - if the college has to shut then the travel is not required for a period of 2 weeks+. It's quite a gamble to pay for a season ticket and then end up not using it half the time. I guess the only option is 'no option' and to 'suck it up'!
Is this just a one way trip? You are quoting the single fare and the equivalent return ticket is only 10p more.
 

Bletchleyite

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Travel is only 3 times per week and heavily dependent on Covid19 - if the college has to shut then the travel is not required for a period of 2 weeks+. It's quite a gamble to pay for a season ticket and then end up not using it half the time. I guess the only option is 'no option' and to 'suck it up'!
Season tickets can be put in for refund down to the tickets which would have been purchased if the season wasn't used. Not a lot of people seem to know that!
 

Gloster

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I am not a ticket expert, but my understanding is that there can be derogations allowing a particular ticket or card to be used for departure earlier than it would normally be valid, but if this does not exist, then the normal rules apply. These derogations are rare and very specifically indicated. It sound unlikely that there is such a derogation, so the standard ‘after 09.59’ rule applies.
 

island

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Sadly there is no “leeway”; there has to be a cutoff somewhere and unfortunately your partner has landed on the wrong side of it.

For the sake of utmost clarity, single/return tickets discounted down to below £12 by a 16-25 Railcard become valid at 10:00 (not 09:59) and are based on the actual train departure time, so if a train were to be delayed past 10:00 it could in principle allow the ticket to be used (if you could purchase it in time of course).
 

smsm1

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Where in Preston do you stay? Could you be close enough to Lostock Hall or Bamber Bridge to e.g. walk/cycle/bus there and therefore get the railcard discount? Granted if you're north of Preston station this wouldn't be so practical depending on how much you like to cycle and what the cycle environment in Preston is like. There does appear to be an off road National Cycle Route 55 which gets you pretty close between Preston and Bamber Bridge station: https://www.cyclestreets.net/journey/71892164/
 

skyhigh

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It's not available on this route yet, but it might we worth keeping an eye on Northern's smart flexi tickets as they will be available at some point in the not too distant future, and would offer a discount on buying anytime returns.


What is a Smart Flexi ticket?

A Smart Flexi ticket is a bulk purchase of 10 all-day tickets, offering added flexibility versus traditional season tickets. Plus, you pay for 9 tickets and get the 10th free!

Can I buy a Smart Flexi ticket for my route?

Smart Flexi tickets are currently only available for travel between the stations listed above.

We will be adding many more routes in the coming months - the product will ultimately be available at all stations and routes where you can currently buy a season ticket.

How long are my tickets valid for?

Flexi tickets are valid for up to 6 months from the date of purchase of the bundle.

How many times can I travel on each daily ticket?

A Flexi ticket allows unlimited travel on the day of activation between the origin and destination stations shown on the ticket.

Can I use my Railcard to obtain further discount?

Flexi tickets already include a 10% saving versus individual Standard Anytime Day Returns. There are no additional railcard or child discounts, or further discounts if travelling off peak or at weekends.
 

Robnw67

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Where in Preston do you stay? Could you be close enough to Lostock Hall or Bamber Bridge to e.g. walk/cycle/bus there and therefore get the railcard discount? Granted if you're north of Preston station this wouldn't be so practical depending on how much you like to cycle and what the cycle environment in Preston is like. There does appear to be an off road National Cycle Route 55 which gets you pretty close between Preston and Bamber Bridge station: https://www.cyclestreets.net/journey/71892164/
We're on the west side of Preston - great for the guild wheel, but by the time my partner cycled to Lostock Hall - that accounts for half the journey and it would be more effective to just continue to cycle to Blackburn. Shame the classes didn't start half an hour later!
 

Haywain

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It's not available on this route yet, but it might we worth keeping an eye on Northern's smart flexi tickets as they will be available at some point in the not too distant future, and would offer a discount on buying anytime returns.

BR Fares indicates that such a ticket is available but is priced at more than 10 times the Off Peak Day Return, so would not represent a value option in this case.
 

Qwerty133

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While I would personally like to see small changes to such time limits on railcards so that they don't disadvantage those who live near stations with an hourly or less frequent service that happens to run just before the cut off unfortunately there is no such rule at the minute. Something along the lines of adding 'where no service is scheduled to depart the origin station in the direction of travel between 10:00 and 10:40 the railcard can be used on the service immediately before 10:00 with no minimum fare' to the terms and conditions would seemingly allow this without having much affect on commuter services.
 

Bletchleyite

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While I would personally like to see small changes to such time limits on railcards so that they don't disadvantage those who live near stations with an hourly or less frequent service that happens to run just before the cut off unfortunately there is no such rule at the minute. Something along the lines of adding 'where no service is scheduled to depart the origin station in the direction of travel between 10:00 and 10:40 the railcard can be used on the service immediately before 10:00 with no minimum fare' to the terms and conditions would seemingly allow this without having much affect on commuter services.
The Network Railcard has a few listed exemptions of that nature, I believe. But what would probably be easier would be simply to change it to be the same as when tickets cease being "Anytime only", as per the restrictions that apply to the Family card in the South East. Those restrictions are already maintained, and a flat "after 0930" could be applied where there are flows that have only Anytime fares.
 

Argyle 1980

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Remember the old timetable when there was a 0956 (Folkestone Central) and 0958 (West) to St Pancras and posters were put up in ticket office windows saying Network railcards are strictly barred from these services.
 

Bletchleyite

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Remember the old timetable when there was a 0956 (Folkestone Central) and 0958 (West) to St Pancras and posters were put up in ticket office windows saying Network railcards are strictly barred from these services.
Interestingly there is now a long list of easements to the 1000 rule for Network Railcards:



Origin Station
Departure Time
Service
Easements apply:

Althorne (Essex)
09:45Greater Anglia service to Wickford To all destinations

Ascott-U-Wych
09:36Great Western Railway service to London PaddingtonTo all destinations

Ashurst (New Forest)
09:40South Western Railway service to London WaterlooTo all destinations

Banbury
09:39Great Western Railway service to London PaddingtonTo all destinations
Battle09:42Southeastern service to London Charing CrossTo all destinations
Bedhampton09:37South Western Railway service to London WaterlooTo all destinations
Bedwyn09:39Great Western Railway service to London PaddingtonTo all destinations
Bletchley09:52London Northwestern Railway service to London EustonTo all destinations
Brading09:28Island Line service to Ryde Pier HeadFor travel to destinations beyond Portsmouth Harbour. Departure from Portsmouth must be at or after 10:00
Brading09:48Island Line service to Ryde Pier HeadFor travel to Portsmouth Harbour only
Branksome09:57South Western Railway service to London WaterlooTo all destinations
Broadstairs09:59Southeastern service to London St Pancras InternationalTo all destinations
Bures09:40Greater Anglia service to Marks TeyTo all destinations
Burnham-on-Crouch09:40Greater Anglia service to WickfordTo all destinations
Chappel & Wakes Colne09:46Greater Anglia service to Marks TeyTo all destinations
Charlbury09:41Great Western Railway service to London PaddingtonTo all destinations
Cranbrook08:36South Western Railway service to London WaterlooTo all destinations
Dorchester South09:33South Western Railway service to London WaterlooTo all destinations
Dovercourt09:30Greater Anglia service to ManningtreeTo all destinations
Downham Market09:58Great Northern service to London Kings CrossTo all destinations
Elsenham09:49Greater Anglia service to London Liverpool Street.To all destinations
Evesham09:35Great Western Railway service to London PaddingtonTo all destinations
Exeter Central08:27South Western Railway service to London WaterlooTo all destinations
Exeter St Davids08:23South Western Railway service to London WaterlooTo Exeter Central, Pinhoe, Cranbrook, Whimple and Feniton only
Feniton08:47South Western Railway service to London WaterlooTo all destinations
Great Chesterford09:34Greater Anglia service to London Liverpool Street.To all destinations
Hanborough09:48Great Western Railway service to London PaddingtonTo all destinations
Harwich International09:33Greater Anglia service to ManningtreeTo all destinations
Harwich Town09:28Greater Anglia service to ManningtreeTo all destinations
Hastings09:29Southeastern service to London Charing CrossTo all destinations
Hastings09:50Southeastern service to London Charing CrossTo all destinations
Heyford09:53Great Western Railway service to London PaddingtonTo all destinations
Hilsea09:32South Western Railway service to London WaterlooTo all destinations
Holton Heath09:56South West Trains service to London WaterlooTo all destinations
Honeybourne09:11Great Western Railway service to London PaddingtonTo all destinations
Honiton09:55South Western Railway service to London WaterlooTo all destinations
Hungerford09:44Great Western Railway service to London PaddingtonTo all destinations
Kelvedon09:52Greater Anglia service to London Liverpool Street.To all destinations
Kingham09:31Great Western Railway service to London PaddingtonTo all destinations
Kings Lynn09:44Great Northern service to London Kings CrossTo all destinations
Kings Sutton09:45Great Western Railway service to London PaddingtonTo all destinations
Kintbury09:49Great Western Railway service to London PaddingtonTo all destinations
Lake09:21Island Line service to Ryde Pier HeadTo all destinations
Lake09:41Island Line service to Ryde Pier HeadTo all destinations
London Liverpool Street09:48Greater Anglia service to BraintreeTo all destinations
London Liverpool Street09:58Greater Anglia service to CambridgeTo all destinations
Lymington Pier09:44South Western Railway service to BrockenhurstTo all destinations
Lymington Town09:46South Western Railway service to BrockenhurstTo all destinations
Margate09:53Southeastern service to London St Pancras InternationalTo all destinations
Marks Tey09:56Greater Anglia service to London Liverpool Street.To all destinations
Milton Keynes Central09:47London Northwestern Railway service to London EustonTo all destinations
Mistley09:45Greater Anglia service to ManningtreeTo all destinations
Moreton (Dorset)09:39South Western Railway service to London WaterlooTo all destinations
Moreton-in-Marsh09:23Great Western Railway service to London PaddingtonTo all destinations
Newbury09:56Great Western Railway service to London PaddingtonTo all destinations
Newport (Essex)09:43Greater Anglia service to London Liverpool Street.To all destinations
North Fambridge09:51Greater Anglia service to WickfordTo all destinations
Parkstone09:54South Western Railway service to London WaterlooTo all destinations
Pershore08:47Great Western Railway service to London PaddingtonTo all destinations
Pinhoe08:32South Western Railway service to London WaterlooTo all destinations
Rowlands Castle09:46South Western Railway service to London WaterlooTo all destinations
Ryde Esplanade09:40Island Line service to Ryde Pier HeadFor travel to destinations beyond Portsmouth Harbour. Departure from Portsmouth must be at or after 10:00
Ryde St John’s Road09:35Island Line service to Ryde Pier HeadFor travel to destinations beyond Portsmouth Harbour. Departure from Portsmouth must be at or after 10:00
Ryde St John’s Road09:55Island Line service to Ryde Pier HeadFor travel to Portsmouth Harbour only
Salisbury09:47South Western Railway service to Exeter St DavidsTo all destinations
Sandown09:24Island Line service to Ryde Pier HeadFor travel to destinations beyond Portsmouth Harbour. Departure from Portsmouth must be at or after 10:00
Sandown09:44Island Line service to Ryde Pier HeadFor travel to Portsmouth Harbour only
Shanklin09:18Island Line service to Ryde Pier HeadFor travel to destinations beyond Portsmouth Harbour. Departure from Portsmouth must be at or after 10:00
Shanklin09:38Island Line service to Ryde Pier HeadFor travel to Portsmouth Harbour only
Shelford09:23Greater Anglia service to London Liverpool Street.To all destinations
Shelford09:23Greater Anglia service to London Liverpool Street.To all destinations
South Woodham Ferrers09:56Greater Anglia service to WickfordTo all destinations
Southminster09:36Greater Anglia service to WickfordTo all destinations
St Leonards Warrior Square09:32Southeastern service to London Charing CrossTo all destinations
St Leonards Warrior Square09:53Southeastern service to London Charing CrossTo all destinations
Stratford09:55Greater Anglia service to BraintreeTo all destinations
Sturry09:58Southeastern service to London Charing CrossTo all destinations
Sudbury (Suffolk)09:33Greater Anglia service to Marks TeyTo all destinations
Tackley09:58Great Western Railway service to London PaddingtonTo all destinations
Totton09:45South Western Railway service to London WaterlooTo all destinations
Tring09:59London Northwestern Railway service to Milton Keynes CentralTo all destinations
Upwey09:24South Western Railway service to London WaterlooTo all destinations
Wadhurst09:58Southeastern service to London Charing CrossTo all destinations
Wareham09:53South Western Railway service to London WaterlooTo all destinations
Watlington09:51Great Northern service to London Kings CrossTo all destinations
West St Leonards09:57Southeastern service to London Charing CrossTo all destinations
Weymouth09:20South Western Railway service to London WaterlooTo all destinations
Whimple08:41South Western Railway service to London WaterlooTo all destinations
Wool09:45South Western Railway service to London WaterlooTo all destinations
Worcester Foregate Street08:26Great Western Railway service to London PaddingtonTo all destinations
Worcester Shrub Hill08:38Great Western Railway service to London PaddingtonTo all destinations
Wrabness09:39Greater Anglia service to ManningtreeTo all destinations
 

Argyle 1980

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Bletchleyite the new timetable has been XX00 Folkestone central and XX02 West to St Pancras for a while now so all good on that front.
I'm surprised the 0959 Dover Priory to Charing X via Folkestone/Tonbridge wasn't included in those easements though.
 

SteveM70

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I am not a ticket expert, but my understanding is that there can be derogations allowing a particular ticket or card to be used for departure earlier than it would normally be valid
It’s a long time since I’ve needed to check this, but my distant memory is that those sorts of derogations only really existed on routes with extremely sparse services, but one of which departed its start point slightly before the normal railcard validity time. For some reason I seem to remember Queen Street to Oban being one, but that was in the 80s
 

alistairlees

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It’s a long time since I’ve needed to check this, but my distant memory is that those sorts of derogations only really existed on routes with extremely sparse services, but one of which departed its start point slightly before the normal railcard validity time. For some reason I seem to remember Queen Street to Oban being one, but that was in the 80s
Correct. There’s no need for it on routes with trains every 30 mins or so.
 

30907

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It’s a long time since I’ve needed to check this, but my distant memory is that those sorts of derogations only really existed on routes with extremely sparse services, but one of which departed its start point slightly before the normal railcard validity time. For some reason I seem to remember Queen Street to Oban being one, but that was in the 80s
And often (as with Offpeak fares generally) when longstanding "offpeak trains" have been retimed by a few minutes to and become "peak trains" (excuse shorthand, I know there are no such things).
 

Bletchleyite

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Bletchleyite the new timetable has been XX00 Folkestone central and XX02 West to St Pancras for a while now so all good on that front.
I'm surprised the 0959 Dover Priory to Charing X via Folkestone/Tonbridge wasn't included in those easements though.
Perhaps Tweet them and let them know. I suspect they only go in when people complain about them.
 

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