Letter from prosecutions unit

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train2012

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Hi
Could some one help me out with my problem?

I have been stopped by tickets inspectors at Liverpool st Station. I used oyster travel card z1-2 to get through the trains gate without having the train ticket. They took me to that police(is that police one?) room, when I give them my details (true name and address). After that they let me go.

Now, few weeks after that, I received a letter form a prosecutions unit. They want me to confirm my details.

What should I do? Should I ignore it (letter send 2nd class via non signature letter)? Should I reply to them?
I admit not having a ticket that day. I don't mind to pay a fee, but I just dont want to have any problems in the future.

Can some one give me some advice, please?
 
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yorkie

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I'm not sure what help we can provide, other than to answer your question with the simple answer that you should not ignore it and should reply truthfully.

Sorry but we are unable to assist further, based on your opening post.

However we may be able to assist if you provide much more information such as:

  • Where was your final destination?
  • What train did you board, and where was the first stop?
  • Did you touch in on the Oyster reader at the start of your journey (Liverpool St?)
  • Did you touch out at the end of your journey?
  • How much PAYG credit did you have on your Oyster card?
If you did not touch in at Liverpool St and boarded a train that was next stop Stratford or Tottenham Hale (or had arrived on a train that was last stop Stratford or Tottenham Hale without being touched in), then I would expect the Company would be interested to know how you intended to pay your fare, why did you not touch in, and if they had not stopped you and the barriers had been open at the other end would you have paid?
 

transportphoto

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So you arrived of of a mainline service from Norwich direction I assume, you travelled without a valid ticket for the most part of your journey in hope to use your oyster card to get out of the barriers at Liverpool Street?

Unfortunately, for you, this seems a pretty easy Byelaw 18 / Regulation of Railways 1889 section 5)3) prosecution. You travelled on the railway without paying for a ticket and had intent to avoid payment. If found guilty of the latter, you are liable to a fine not exceeding level two / three on the standard scale, for second or subsequent offence level 3 on the standard scale or at the courts discretion imprisonment for a term not exceeding three months.

TP
 

fireftrm

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Firstly you presumably mean a Travelcard not Oyster travelcard? Oyster cards are not limited to zones, just how much they have top up available, they can also be used form Liverpool St on a few Greater Anglia services.

The letter should be replied to and just wait, I do not know if a set penalty fare will apply, or prosecution - I rather guess that depends on the circumstances. You should speak to a solicitor if it goes further.
 

ralphchadkirk

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Is this your first railway ticketing offence? Have you received a Unpaid Fare Notice, Penalty Fare, or prosecution before?
 

transportphoto

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Firstly you presumably mean a Travelcard not Oyster travelcard? Oyster cards are not limited to zones, just how much they have top up available, they can also be used form Liverpool St on a few Greater Anglia services.
This is entirely incorrect I'm afraid. Travelcards can be loaded onto oyster cards, they are not just Pay as you Go. Travelcards are not just paper tickets.

TP
 

train2012

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So you arrived of of a mainline service from Norwich direction I assume, you travelled without a valid ticket for the most part of your journey in hope to use your oyster card to get out of the barriers at Liverpool Street?

Unfortunately, for you, this seems a pretty easy Byelaw 18 / Regulation of Railways 1889 section 5)3) prosecution. You travelled on the railway without paying for a ticket and had intent to avoid payment. If found guilty of the latter, you are liable to a fine not exceeding level two / three on the standard scale, for second or subsequent offence level 3 on the standard scale or at the courts discretion imprisonment for a term not exceeding three months.

TP
That is exactly what happened minus the reason why I did not have a valid ticket. Could you please explain to me the second part of your answer?
If found guilty of the latter, you are liable to a fine not exceeding level two / three on the standard scale, for second or subsequent offence level 3 on the standard scale or at the courts discretion imprisonment for a term not exceeding three months.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Is this your first railway ticketing offence? Have you received a Unpaid Fare Notice, Penalty Fare, or prosecution before?
never had any of the above. That was my firs time ;/
 

yorkie

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Firstly you presumably mean a Travelcard not Oyster travelcard? Oyster cards are not limited to zones, just how much they have top up available, they can also be used form Liverpool St on a few Greater Anglia services.
He will have a Travelcard for Zones 1-2 (the product) on an Oyster card (which is a medium).

As usual we have to do some guessing. It's not entirely clear whether he was travelling to or from Liverpool St, but I am going to guess the journey was either Liverpool St to Tottenham Hale, or Stratford & beyond, or vice-versa & beyond, and I am also going to guess he did not touch in at the start of his journey.


The letter should be replied to and just wait, I do not know if a set penalty fare will apply, or prosecution - I rather guess that depends on the circumstances. You should speak to a solicitor if it goes further.
They are asking for a statement, which means they are considering a prosecution.
 

transportphoto

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If a court finds you guilty of committing an offence under section 5)3) of the Regulation of Railways act 1889 - you will be liable to a fine not exceeding level 2/3 of the standard scale. The standard scale is set out in the Criminal Justice Act 1982 (c. 48, SIF 39:1) which is £500 to £1000.


TP
 

train2012

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I was travelling from Norwich area to Liverpool st. I did not touched in my oyster, just out.

What does mean- they thinking of a prosecution?

Should I make any comments while responding to them?
 

34D

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Can some one give me some advice, please?
Be very very careful what you write (if anything).

Please advise clearly whether you had just arrived at Liverpool st (on a train from somewhere else) or were about to depart Liverpool Street (to go somewhere such as Bethnal Green (which would be covered by your zone 1-2 travelcard).

Think we need to know which of the above before being able to give meaningful help.
 

train2012

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Be very very careful what you write (if anything).

Please advise clearly whether you had just arrived at Liverpool st (on a train from somewhere else) or were about to depart Liverpool Street (to go somewhere such as Bethnal Green (which would be covered by your zone 1-2 travelcard).

Think we need to know which of the above before being able to give meaningful help.
just arrived at Liverpool st (on a train from somewhere else)
 

yorkie

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I was travelling from Norwich area to Liverpool st. I did not touched in my oyster, just out.
What station? What facilities (if any) are available at your origin station? How long did you have to change trains at Norwich? Did a ticket inspector walk through the train offering to sell tickets at any point during your journey, if so did you ask to buy a ticket, and what did the inspector say?

Without knowing the detail I cannot say whether or not you have a case.

Also where was your ultimate destination (ie, were you going to be continuing your journey beyond Liverpool St) and where were you going to go after passing through the barrier?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
just arrived at Liverpool st (on a train from somewhere else)
Sorry if this sounds harsh but if you want our help we need to be given the full facts initially, not drip-fed small tiny bits of information.

If you do not wish to provide details here, that is understandable in which case, we cannot help and you need to contact a solicitor (or you could make an appointment with Citizens Advice, but I'd be amazed if they're as experienced as us with railway ticketing matters).
 

transportphoto

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What you've put on here has already suggested that you had intent to avoid payment of the fare due... It seems to me that you are guilty of the offences. Be very careful to what you say, if anything, on your statement back to the prosecutions unit. As always you don't have to say anything but it may harm your defence if you say something inadvertently. Greater Anglia are considering prosecution - this will result in you receiving a criminal record (most probably).

I am amazed that you weren't picked up on route, were you hiding in a toilet to evade capture?

TP
 

train2012

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What station? What facilities (if any) are available at your origin station? How long did you have to change trains at Norwich? Did a ticket inspector walk through the train offering to sell tickets at any point during your journey, if so did you ask to buy a ticket, and what did the inspector say?

Without knowing the detail I cannot say whether or not you have a case.

Also where was your ultimate destination (ie, were you going to be continuing your journey beyond Liverpool St) and where were you going to go after passing through the barrier?
I write: traveled from Norwitch area to Liverpool.

ok

traveled from Ipswich to Liverpool st. Ticket inspector get me in liverpool st, after i touched out. Liverpool was my last stop. There was no ticket inspectors on the train that day.

Sorry for any mistakes - English is not my first language.
 

MikeWh

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I write: traveled from Norwitch area to Liverpool.

ok

traveled from Ipswich to Liverpool st. Ticket inspector get me in liverpool st, after i touched out. Liverpool was my last stop. There was no ticket inspectors on the train that day.

Sorry for any mistakes - English is not my first language.
OK, don't worry that English isn't your first language. As far as I can see, there are two scenarios:

A) You were on a train which ran fast from Chelmsford/Colchester to Liverpool Street.
B) You were on a train which stopped to set down only at Stratford.

In both instances it would not be expected for people to travel on the train using only an Oyster card. In case (A) it would be impossible, in case (B) the train is not advertised at Stratford as bound for London so people wouldn't usually get on. Therefore, to be using an Oyster card at Liverpool Street is going to raise suspiscions and if you have no other ticket you have clearly travelled without paying the appropriate fare.

Assuming that what I've suggested is correct then your only hope is to write a very apologetic letter explaining that you've learned your lesson and offering to pay their costs to avoid them taking the matter to court. If it is a first offence then that will usually work. There are people on here who will offer to proof read what you say to ensure that you don't make things worse. You've made 5 posts here so you can send and receive PMs now, so that would be the best option.
 

transportphoto

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Unfortunately, judging from what you've posted on here, you have already admitted to travelling with intent to avoid payment. Demonstrating that intent using the Oyster Card to exit Liverpool Street. As Mike above says, your only hope is to write a very apologetic letter however this will also be admitting the offences even further. I'm not sure what is best.

TP
 

train2012

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Unfortunately, judging from what you've posted on here, you have already admitted to travelling with intent to avoid payment. Demonstrating that intent using the Oyster Card to exit Liverpool Street. As Mike above says, your only hope is to write a very apologetic letter however this will also be admitting the offences even further. I'm not sure what is best.

TP
but i do admit not have a ticket. I just do not want any problems and can pay a fee so i dont go to the court.
 

reb0118

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should i dont say a word?
It is your right to remain silent however if a prosecution was to take place your silence can be taken as tacit admission of guilt (IANAL however) also if you remain silent and then later come out with some excuse the court can draw adverse conclusions from this.

Most honest people will defend themselves from the start and will wish to do so - if you have done nothing wrong you have nothing to fear.

If you have made an error or indeed have not paid your fare in this instance I would advise you to state the truth of what happened on the form (do not ignore the form as it will not just go away!) however be clear & concise you would be advised not to bring other instances into the equation but to stick to the matter in hand.

Remember there is a good possibility that you may have already said enough to the Inspectors at Liverpool Street to warrant a prosecution so you should not contradict yourself in your written statement.

Good luck in your endeavors.
 

transportphoto

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but i do admit not have a ticket. I just do not want any problems and can pay a fee so i dont go to the court.
In which case they may ignore attempts to settle out of court and prosecute you as it will be an 'easy prosecution'.
Ralph, that is exactly what I said in my first reply. The prospect for you train2012 isn't brilliant.

TP
 

GadgetMan

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The TOC/Ticket Inspectors may have also dug into the oyster card history to see if you were tapping out at Liverpool st on a regular basis without tapping in anywhere which may suggest a serial offender rather than someone who has made a mistake and got caught out.
 

Monty

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Sounds like an open and shut 5 3a case to me i'm afraid. As TP has already mentioned your chances right now are not looking good train2012. It looks like Greater Anglia (the train company) have more than enough to prosecute you with so if/when you do write back to them I woud suggest you be as honest and truthful as possible, withholding anything could only make matters worse for you. I would also stress how sorry you are and how foolish you have been.

Make it clear to them you wish to settle out of court, and if they do agree to do so be prepared that the sum they demand from you may seem excessive to you. Infact you may end up paying more than you would if you went to court hwoever I'm guessing for you right now money is not the main problem the prospect of getting a criminal record is.

If English is not your first language I would get someone to proof read your response to the company before you send it, if you ask nicely enough some of the gentlemen here may do it.

The TOC/Ticket Inspectors may have also dug into the oyster card history to see if you were tapping out at Liverpool st on a regular basis without tapping in anywhere which may suggest a serial offender rather than someone who has made a mistake and got caught out.
I would sincerely hope this is a one off, if not train2012's chances have just taken a nose dive.
 

RJ

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In my 5 or so months as a ticket inspector, I foiled around a dozen Oyster Travelcard fraudsters. The really clever ones bought a paper Zone 1-2 season ticket from me, forgetting that their address was on the system. Couldn't possibly figure out why someone living a good 40 miles away would want a Z1-2 Travelcard! Suspicious, I know but didn't stop me being right.

All of these cases were successfully prosecuted - season ticket fraud is something that is seriously frowned upon. It must be great to live on a line where ticket checks are rare (on the 170s) - pity about those pesky inspectors huh!

The knee jerk advice to any prosecution thread is to write a nice letter to the Train Operating Company concerned. In this case, what the OP needs to do is accept they're going to court and seek advice from a solicitor with regards to mitigating the severity of the punishment.
 
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Squaddie

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It is your right to remain silent however if a prosecution was to take place your silence can be taken as tacit admission of guilt (IANAL however)...
I think we need to remember that train2012's first language is not English and perhaps avoid the use of acronyms that even the majority of native speakers might not understand.
 

34D

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I think we need to remember that train2012's first language is not English and perhaps avoid the use of acronyms that even the majority of native speakers might not understand.
Yes - until very recently I thought that ianal referred to ones posterior (or another persons posterior) not 'I am not a lawyer'.
 

island

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Just be honest and pay up if they fine you.
Greater Anglia cannot fine anyone. Only a court can issue a fine.

The OP would, as above, be well advised to contact Greater Anglia offering a substantial sum of money, at least the cost of the fares avoided if they have been doing this regularly, plus a further sum towards their administrative costs, in return for the matter being taken no further. I don't know GA's attitude towards this, but if I were deciding, I would not accept any such settlement as the OP's actions are, I am sorry to say, a blatant attempt to cheat the railway. However, the GA prosecutions people may be more reasonable than I.
 
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