Leyland National Maximum Speed

[A0wen]

I think you're right on that.

I think the Fleetline had a designation that would be FE30AGR, indicating that it was an automatic, but Nationals were designated on the design upgrade as you say. Outwardly, aside from some differences, there was little obvious to highlight an original vs an A series. The B series was markedly different but few firms took them, most notably London Country and Crosville.

When you look at it, the B series was only in the 10.3m length - which was the less popular length (even for the A series). London Country liked that because it had always struggled with 'long' single deckers - a hangover of its LT roots in some ways and the 10.3m National was much closer in length to its beloved RFs than the 11.3m.

Other companies had been operating vehicles like the Bristol RELL which meant the move to the 11.3m National was much easier as they'd been used to circa 11.0m buses already.

The B series did attract a few followers though - in addition to the two you cited, Ribble, East Yorkshire, West Yorkshire and Bristol all took numbers of them - probably where in the past they'd have taken Bristol LHs but the B series was more standardised, had better passenger access and might even have been a bit nicer from a driver's perspective.

That whole 'short bus' single deck mentality in the old London Country area hung on for ages - it was only as the Nationals disappeared and things like Lynxes and B10Bs turned up did it change. Interestingly some of the LCBS successors bought second hand Nationals - a number of which were 'long' versions - a type LCBS had shied away from.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

When you look at it, the B series was only in the 10.3m length - which was the less popular length (even for the A series). London Country liked that because it had always struggled with 'long' single deckers - a hangover of its LT roots in some ways and the 10.3m National was much closer in length to its beloved RFs than the 11.3m.

Other companies had been operating vehicles like the Bristol RELL which meant the move to the 11.3m National was much easier as they'd been used to circa 11.0m buses already.

The B series did attract a few followers though - in addition to the two you cited, Ribble, East Yorkshire, West Yorkshire and Bristol all took numbers of them - probably where in the past they'd have taken Bristol LHs but the B series was more standardised, had better passenger access and might even have been a bit nicer from a driver's perspective.

That whole 'short bus' single deck mentality in the old London Country area hung on for ages - it was only as the Nationals disappeared and things like Lynxes and B10Bs turned up did it change. Interestingly some of the LCBS successors bought second hand Nationals - a number of which were 'long' versions - a type LCBS had shied away from.

Indeed, the 10.3m length was an issue, and that was also reflected not only in the earlier A series etc, but also in the number of RESLs delivered vs RELLs. Of course, the rationale was the RELL/National could accommodate as many with standees as a crew operated decker had but without the issues of deckers and one person operation so the shorter lengths were always more niche.

The shorter, lighter vehicles were usually for the more marginal routes (LCBS being the exception for the reasons you say). It's a bit of an outlier in terms of shorter Nationals as you point out. The one thing I found odd was that having bought so many Nationals, LCBS didn't buy any Mk2s.

In the past, many operators would have gone for LSs, SCs or LHs (in THC days) or something like a Tiger Cub (BET) or in later days, various lightweight Fords and Bedfords for their rural routes. The B series was a stripped back National but in truth, it failed to really find a niche. It was neither cheap to buy or run in comparison with an LH. Hence why firms with a large rural hinterland (i.e. United Auto, Eastern Counties, Lincolnshire and Western National) took LHs and even Bristol Omnibus only took five B series whilst buying a substantial number of LHs (including the final LH built). The surprise is that Crosville took so many B series.

The B series also came at a time when those rural routes were in a state of terminal decline. The requirement was falling and that was compounded as MAP schemes saw the axe swung; it saw the requirement for Nationals of any length reduced as the emphasis moved to more deckers.

 

[JonathanH]

Bristol Omnibus only took five B series

Er, 15 I think - 700-714 VAE499T-VAE507T / XEU857T-XEU861T / YEU446V although maybe you are observing that many of these went to Cheltenham & Gloucester in the split. At least the XEU-T batch had Autumn Gold moquette seats rather than the vinyl of the earlier N-reg short Nationals the B-series Nationals worked alongside.

Obviously they took a lot of LHs at the same time (although many were sent to Hants & Dorset). Quite a few of the 'short' Nationals worked city services in Bath and Weston, ousted by Transits in the mid-1980s.

 

[A0wen]

The one thing I found odd was that having bought so many Nationals, LCBS didn't buy any Mk2s.

Easily explained - at formation LCBS had 413 RFs and 109 Merlins - so a single deck requirement of about 500. The number of Nationals bought - 543.

The original double deck fleet of RTs and RMs were replaced by Atlanteans and initially long Nationals, but the long Nationals were replaced by Olympians. Add in a mix of later Reliances and then Leopards and Tigers.

Throw in some loss of contracts and consolidation in the late 70s and early 80s and the fleet numbers added up.

By the early 80s they didn't need new single decks because the fleet was less than 10 years old - probably nearer 5 on average.

Whereas the likes of United Counties for example as a neighbouring company had some fairly elderly Bristol REs which were ready for retirement along with some oddballs such as the Ford and Bedford lightweights they'd bought in the 70s.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Er, 15 I think - 700-714 VAE499T-VAE507T / XEU857T-XEU861T / YEU446V although maybe you are observing that many of these went to Cheltenham & Gloucester in the split. At least the XEU-T batch had Autumn Gold moquette seats rather than the vinyl of the earlier N-reg short Nationals the B-series Nationals worked alongside.

Obviously they took a lot of LHs at the same time (although many were sent to Hants & Dorset). Quite a few of the 'short' Nationals worked city services in Bath and Weston, ousted by Transits in the mid-1980s.

Thanks - memory playing tricks. They did buy a lot of LHs between 1975-80 and, as you say, many were disposed of early with only 2/3 years service

 

[Geordie driver]

What was the passenger capacity of the longer Nationals? I have an idea standing was something like 31? Combined with seating it gave them capacity not that far from some deckers IIRC.

 

[86247]

I know that the national's that MPTE bought were either B49F or B52F, all depends on if their was a luggage pen behind the door or not. National seating was anything between B44 or B52. Hope this helps.

 

[Chris217]

The Cardiff ones were B40D but when
converted to single door became B44F.
No luggage racks in ours.
These were of course 10.3 metre examples.
Also of note. 201was an M reg which had a long pod. The others 202-221 were N reg and had shorter pods.
Does,anyone remember travelling on 2 speed ZF examples anywhere?
I think a lot of the Australian Leyland Nationals were like this.
Cannot seem to find any videos of those ones on YouTube.
I know our ones thrashed quite a bit and were pretty fast. But prone to over heating on hilly routes.

 

[GusB]

The Cardiff ones were B40D but when
converted to single door became B44F.
No luggage racks in ours.
These were of course 10.3 metre examples.
Also of note. 201was an M reg which had a long pod. The others 202-221 were N reg and had shorter pods.
Does,anyone remember travelling on 2 speed ZF examples anywhere?
I think a lot of the Australian Leyland Nationals were like this.
Cannot seem to find any videos of those ones on YouTube.
I know our ones thrashed quite a bit and were pretty fast. But prone to over heating on hilly routes.

The Australian Nationals were an interesting case - they were actually built to an intermediate length at 10.9m, and constructed from a mixture of the long and short modules from the 10.3m and 11.3m versions.

 

[MotCO]

The other 'unusual' operator was British Airways who used some 11.3m Mk 1 and Mk2's on their airside duties, with offside doors fitted as well. Some went to Capital Citybus afterwards.

 

[cl19]

Cracking responses to this thread! Thanks all!!

 

[carlberry]

The other 'unusual' operator was British Airways who used some 11.3m Mk 1 and Mk2's on their airside duties, with offside doors fitted as well. Some went to Capital Citybus afterwards.

Didn't some of them have an open 'scoop' in the front in place of the door (a bit like an open rear platform door at the front) or am I thinking of something else?

 

[awsnews]

Didn't some of them have an open 'scoop' in the front in place of the door (a bit like an open rear platform door at the front) or am I thinking of something else?

At the risk of going further off topic as I suspect the airside buses never got close to their top speed!

British Airways TBY 112R

British Airways Leyland National TBY 112R + a Leyland Terrier behind Heathrow Airport 28/1/78 BKP

flic.kr

 

[PG]

The Australian Nationals were an interesting case - they were actually built to an intermediate length at 10.9m, and constructed from a mixture of the long and short modules from the 10.3m and 11.3m versions.

Yes, something to do with the permitted axle loading meaning that the 11.3m version was too heavy IIRC. I believe that the first 5 bays were the standard 1.2m length (from the 11.3m model) with the rear of the bus (including the back axle) being literally the rear of the short 10.3m model. By my reckoning that would have made the 10.9m model B48F or B44D unless anyone knows otherwise?