Lib Dem Manifesto - Reopenings....

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Masboroughlad

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All well and good the 'big' electrifictaion announcements from the coalition....

If I remember correctly, the Lib-Dem's own manifesto promised LOTS of re-openings around the country. Anyone know what they were? I am sure Buxton to Matlock was one of them.

Of course, they never expected to be in Government, so I am sure they have carefully kept quiet about them......
 
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MidnightFlyer

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:roll: Here we go again, people taking every opportunity possible to bash the coalition...

The manifesto is largely based on if you get a majority. In a coalition however compromises have to be met, with two parties in places so different as we have, you will find a lot won't get done...
 

Masboroughlad

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:roll: Here we go again, people taking every opportunity possible to bash the coalition...

The manifesto is largely based on if you get a majority. In a coalition however compromises have to be met, with two parties in places so different as we have, you will find a lot won't get done...

Not bashing it mate, so please don't make assumptions. (Although they do need it!). I just wondered what they had said they would do.....

Actually, the announcement today is a watered down version of Lord Adonis plans I am sure....
 

HSTEd

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Remember Manifestos aren't in any way binding on the Liberal Democrats as they didn't win a majority (and that is straight from the mouths of senior figures in the party), however when it suits them they are supposed to be binding on both the Conservatives and the Labour party, who obviously both won majorities.... oh wait.
 

cogload

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The Liberal Democrats had a specific set of ideas for re-openings and for railway policy if they maintained a majority in the HoC. They did not. The Labour Party had 13 years to announce a coherant policy for electrification in the previous 3 parliaments, they did not. The Tories, well who knows to be honest....

Apart from HS2 which iis happening, please enlighten me on what Adonis' plans were (as an ex Lib/ SDP member perhaps he has a light side, not sure).
 

Jonny

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I heard the Leamside line from Heworth (-ish) to the ECML at Ferryhill was a candidate, it would have made an alternative diversion that MK4/Class 91 sets could use (either as a diesel drag or electrification, depending on infrastructure) without encountering metro OLE-related problems.
 

Yew

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Judging by previous experience of the liberal democrats, I expect that actually they will de-electrify the ECML and triple fares..
 

Oswyntail

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Does anyone need an excuse?!
Apparently not, as the "Opposition" seems to think its job is to bash the coalition regardless of facts (usually with Harriet Harman trying to look sage in the background). Saying "It's all rubbish" isn't criticism or opposition unless you explain why. Some people also fail to grasp the difference between a coalition and a single-party government, and bash the government for not being the latter. I would say HMG is doing about 6/10 so far, which is better than usual
 

Schnellzug

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Apparently not, as the "Opposition" seems to think its job is to bash the coalition regardless of facts (usually with Harriet Harman trying to look sage in the background).
isn't that what the job of the "opposition" is supposed to be? It ws pathetic during the Bliar/Brown era the way that there was "cross-party agreement" on everything because the Tories knew they were so feeble that no one took any notice of them.

. Some people also fail to grasp the difference between a coalition and a single-party government, and bash the government for not being the latter.
Really? It's a Coaliton? What has Nick "Clegg" and his "Lib Dems" managed to do .... I'm sure someone will be able to think of something that he's done. Has he been on telly once or twice? He may have managed that.

I would say HMG is doing about 6/10 so far, which is better than usual
about the only thing they have done since they managed to get into office, on highly dubious grounds, has been Cuts.
 

twoag

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Judging by previous experience of the liberal democrats, I expect that actually they will de-electrify the ECML and triple fares..

Crickey you must be getting on these days:D.. they would need to create and demerge the big four reinstate all steam traction... but fares would be in the pennies although so would earnings.... last single party liberal government was 1915..;)

Anybody remember what they were proposing..
 

yorksrob

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Didn't the Conservatives also have a commitment to safeguarding certain routes for future re-openings ?

If so, selecting these key routes and safeguarding them through legislation would seem to be an ideal compromise policy for the Coalition.
 

cle

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I'm no massive fan of the coalition on a lot of things; NHS, unis etc... but I do actually think they've been pretty great on railways. They see the value of electrification (maybe taking the lead from Adonis and Darling but who cares), are taking steps to equalise regional divides (TPE/N Hub/FGW improvements) - and even re-openings such as E/W and building the bloody Croxley link which I never thought I'd see.

Uckfield Lewes would have been nice but it's a luxury not a necessity. No freight need really. And they're getting extra cars and longer platforms - surely eventually that'll push fuel and fixed costs up to the point where electrification and possible extensions (due to stock use) make sense.

But railways are but an interest and a passion. I could never vote for a party based on their transport policy - it's important economically and socially, but not life and death.
 

WatcherZero

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To be fair to the Lib Dems the Government did actually look at a number of reopening schemes, problem is most of them the business case doesnt stack up.
 

Oswyntail

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isn't that what the job of the "opposition" is supposed to be? ....
No it isn't. There is a difference between "Bashing" (repeating "It's rubbish" ad nauseam) and "opposing" (saying "This won't work, because...."). The opposition have apparently lost any capacity they might have had for rational critique
Really? It's a Coaliton? What has Nick "Clegg" and his "Lib Dems" managed to do .... I'm sure someone will be able to think of something that he's done. Has he been on telly once or twice? He may have managed that.....
The one area I have some experience of is the Health Bill. During the process of developing that, and running it through Parliament, there was almost unprecedented co-operation between the two parties, with constructive criticism and contribution from both sides (To be fair, where opposition representatives found the guts to engage, they were also listened to). In this respect, the presence of the LibDems in government has achieved a real difference, and one that, if continued, can only be to the benefit of the country. Achievement is not measured in "we've forced the others to do what they didn't want to", but in "we've worked together to make things better".
 

brianthegiant

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Whilst one might not agree with all the coalition's policies (& I certainly don't).... Nonetheless what the current coalition have proven is that a coalition government can govern in the UK. In that they are running the country (setting budgets, getting legislation through parliament etc, etc).
Sure there are cock-ups but then so there are in any Government.

I dont believe this has ever happened before in the UK certainly in the last century? whenever coalitions were tried in the post war years they were a total failure, and hence coalitions have such a bad reputation in this country for their inability to govern?

Indeed if coalitions are pretty much the norm in many countries in Europe, why are they such a dirty word here? Indeed coalition politics in Germany (which is not exactly struggling) are largely as a result of a political system we (UK&US) foisted on them after WW2...

I actually think that now we have seen that coaltions can actually Govern that might be good for democracy, since people might be more likely to vote away from the big 2 parties & enable a slightly more pluralistic & representative democracy. Sure the lib dems are unpopular at the moment, but that will change. Whilst I'm not a lib dem myself, the partisan mudslinging does get a bit tedious.

Maybe I'm being a little idealistic here, but UK politics are changing, certainly minority parties are getting a larger share of the vote, Labour & Tories can be less sure of majorities in the future.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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I actually think that now we have seen that coaltions can actually govern that might be good for democracy, since people might be more likely to vote away from the big 2 parties & enable a slightly more pluralistic & representative democracy. Sure the Lib Dems are unpopular at the moment, but that will change. Whilst I'm not a Lib Dem myself, the partisan mudslinging does get a bit tedious.

A good point well made.
 

tbtc

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I'm no massive fan of the coalition on a lot of things; NHS, unis etc... but I do actually think they've been pretty great on railways. They see the value of electrification (maybe taking the lead from Adonis and Darling but who cares), are taking steps to equalise regional divides (TPE/N Hub/FGW improvements) - and even re-openings such as E/W and building the bloody Croxley link which I never thought I'd see.

Uckfield Lewes would have been nice but it's a luxury not a necessity. No freight need really. And they're getting extra cars and longer platforms - surely eventually that'll push fuel and fixed costs up to the point where electrification and possible extensions (due to stock use) make sense.

But railways are but an interest and a passion. I could never vote for a party based on their transport policy - it's important economically and socially, but not life and death.

I agree with all that - whilst I'm more of a left leaning wooly liberal, I've got to accept that Labour did nothing for over ten years (before a "death bed conversion" under Adonis, with an election looming) whilst the co-alition are making bigger improvements for the railway than any Government of my lifetime.

I've got to give credit where its due

It ws pathetic during the Bliar/Brown era

Do people still do the "Bliar" stuff? It was tedious enough ten years ago.
 

yorksrob

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To be fair to the Lib Dems the Government did actually look at a number of reopening schemes, problem is most of them the business case doesnt stack up.

All the more reason for going for a comprehensive route safeguarding scheme.

Any business case methodology will only ever reflect the economic situation/political preferences/cultural and historic prejudices and technical developments of a given era in time. In the meantime, safeguarding routes can better reflect longer term aspirations and prevent local landowners/authorities from sabotaging future re-openings.
 

tbtc

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All the more reason for going for a comprehensive route safeguarding scheme.

Any business case methodology will only ever reflect the economic situation/political preferences/cultural and historic prejudices and technical developments of a given era in time. In the meantime, safeguarding routes can better reflect longer term aspirations and prevent local landowners/authorities from sabotaging future re-openings.

Should we have safeguarded all phone boxes when they became uneconomical? Or kept all school buildings intact in areas where the falling population meant fewer schools were required? Or have kept all ports/ harbours maintained even though the trade wasn't there?
 

SS4

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Indeed if coalitions are pretty much the norm in many countries in Europe, why are they such a dirty word here? Indeed coalition politics in Germany (which is not exactly struggling) are largely as a result of a political system we (UK&US) foisted on them after WW2...

You'd have thought we'd have learnt from it and got ourselves a representative government. Coalitions aren't always great though, Belgium being an example. West Germany's economy was also helped by the Marshall Plan meaning countries couldn't claim goods/capital from Germany as war reparations.

I actually think that now we have seen that coaltions can actually Govern that might be good for democracy, since people might be more likely to vote away from the big 2 parties & enable a slightly more pluralistic & representative democracy. Sure the lib dems are unpopular at the moment, but that will change. Whilst I'm not a lib dem myself, the partisan mudslinging does get a bit tedious.

Maybe I'm being a little idealistic here, but UK politics are changing, certainly minority parties are getting a larger share of the vote, Labour & Tories can be less sure of majorities in the future.

Fat chance. There won't be democracy until we get proportional representation.
 

cle

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I agree with all that - whilst I'm more of a left leaning wooly liberal, I've got to accept that Labour did nothing for over ten years (before a "death bed conversion" under Adonis, with an election looming) whilst the co-alition are making bigger improvements for the railway than any Government of my lifetime.

I've got to give credit where its due



Do people still do the "Bliar" stuff? It was tedious enough ten years ago.

Only on the Daily Mail message boards.

I'm glad 'LIBOR' is more well-known now, so the tub-thumping morons can put 'Liebour' to bed too.
 

Mystic Force

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Should we have safeguarded all phone boxes when they became uneconomical? Or kept all school buildings intact in areas where the falling population meant fewer schools were required? Or have kept all ports/ harbours maintained even though the trade wasn't there?

No, at the time these looked like they didnt have a future. However in the future maybe we find that we do need more harbors and at that point we safeguard them so that at some point we can reinstate them. This is the position the railways are currently in. The technology that looked like it would make rail unnecessary has been a victim of its own success and with improvements in rail and a change in peoples use rail again looks viable. So at that point when it becomes apparent there maybe some use in old rail lines thats the point when we safeguard so we at least have the option before the opportunity is lost or cost prohibitive. Some valuable infrastructure would still be lost but at least none once we know it has value.

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2
 

Mojo

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ut I do actually think they've been pretty great on railways. They see the value of electrification (maybe taking the lead from Adonis and Darling but who cares), are taking steps to equalise regional divides (TPE/N Hub/FGW improvements) - and even re-openings such as E/W and building the bloody Croxley link which I never thought I'd see.
Completely agree. I've heard much more announced with regards to public transport improvements from the present government in the past two years than I heard from the previous government over their entire term. Let us also not forget the huge improvement in regional rail transport (including light rail) which was also overseen by the pre-97 Conservative government. Yet there are still many who say that the Tories are anti-public transport...
 

cogload

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What have the Liberal Democrats achieved in government; well, the personal tax allowance is being raised (a LD idea - stolen by the other parties), there is about to be a fundamental reform of the pensions system (policy driven by the LD's), and for those really interested in politics there is a nice little info thingy here:

http://www.markpack.org.uk/libdem-infographic/

Back to the railways, for those who are interested in what re-openings the party wanted should look in their manifesto. I am sure it is fairly easy to find.
 

Masboroughlad

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What have the Liberal Democrats achieved in government; well, the personal tax allowance is being raised (a LD idea - stolen by the other parties), there is about to be a fundamental reform of the pensions system (policy driven by the LD's), and for those really interested in politics there is a nice little info thingy here:

http://www.markpack.org.uk/libdem-infographic/

Back to the railways, for those who are interested in what re-openings the party wanted should look in their manifesto. I am sure it is fairly easy to find.

This is what they said:

"High speed rail is hugely important, but it is only part of the 21st century rail network Britain needs. Our plans will reopen thousands of miles of track across the country and make our railway great again"
 

Monty

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This is what they said:

"High speed rail is hugely important, but it is only part of the 21st century rail network Britain needs. Our plans will reopen thousands of miles of track across the country and make our railway great again"

Nice and vague isn't it? I agree some routes should be looked at with the potential to be reopened I do think "thousands of miles" is a bit of an exaggeration, where would the money come from to start with? Oh yeah I forgot silly me, it''ll be on the slate. :roll:

I would rather spend the money on increasing capacity on existing line and perhaps even upgrading some routes of the network to the European loading guage when the route goes through a major phase of modernization.

It's all academic though, I have more chance of being PM than Cleggy does at the next general election. :lol:
 

yorksrob

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Should we have safeguarded all phone boxes when they became uneconomical? Or kept all school buildings intact in areas where the falling population meant fewer schools were required? Or have kept all ports/ harbours maintained even though the trade wasn't there?

I think a more sensible comparison would have been with the canal network.

Certainly in the mid 20th century many were falling into disrepair and it was thought that they didn't have a future. However, recently many have restored and are extremely useful to the economy, so it could be argued that some sort of a safeguarding scheme might have been desireable in that case.

Also, whereas there is a maintenance cost to keeping an old building (or indeed a telephone box) in working order, safeguarding a limited number of closed rail routes would effectively just block any planning permissions/constructions that might predjudice future re-openings.
 

cogload

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Exactly, he'll be at the Job Centre!

If he wishes to remain an MP then it is a very safe bet that he will remain an MP for Sheffield Hallam, or whichever constituency supercedes it.

If he wishes to do something else (he can speak 5 languages) then I am sure plenty of people would snap him up.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
This is what they said:

"High speed rail is hugely important, but it is only part of the 21st century rail network Britain needs. Our plans will reopen thousands of miles of track across the country and make our railway great again"

Yep, vague and waffly. At least the spirit was there; and unlike the last administration and has been pointed out in this thread: there seems to be mouth with these trousers.
 
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