• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Life expired track

Status
Not open for further replies.

deltic08

On Moderation
Joined
26 Aug 2013
Messages
2,717
Location
North
Without being too flippant, life expired track is simply when some or all of the track system is beyond economic repair, and it is easier to replace.

There are 5 main components (top first)

Rails
Fastenings
Sleepers (bearers in point work)
Ballast
Formation including drainage


Rails can last a long time - I've pulled out rail over 100 years old. Equally, some needs renewing every few years, particularly on rails with high tonnage, high speed and high cant deficinecy (eg WCML and ECML). Rerailing is classed as a renewal once you go above a certain length (can't remember how long).

Replacing fastenings is a maintenance job. However some fastenings are more prone to failure than others (eg Pan 8) and are considered life expired, and the whole track system will be replaced at the same time.

Sleepers - if the odd one breaks that's a maintenance job. Timber sleepers, particularly softwood, will normally rot more quickly than a concrete sleeper will decay. However some types of concrete sleeper are known to decay more quickly basically due to either their reinforcement wires corroding, and/or the concrete mix being less than ideal. Again, this will happen more quickly on high tonnage / high speed routes.

Ballast loses its angularity over time, partly through small movement under the passage of trains, and partly through tamping. Tiny pieces break off, creating fines (essentially sand) which clog the ballast causing it to lose its drainage properties. Rounded ballast is also not so good at locking sleepers into place, so more minor movement occurs and then the problem escalates. There are some locations around the country where limestone ballast was used; this is less hard than granite and will become, a problem much more quickly.

Formation life depends on the geology underneath. Decent rock or sand formation is great, clay and peat / fen is not. Clay is well know for pumping up through the ballast causing a 'wet spot' which causes all sorts of geometry and track defects. Digging out a wet spot on a wet Tuesday night in February is (in my experience) the hardest job on the railway. Any replacement of ballast and formation more than an occasional wet spot is a renewal.

Putting all the above together, life expired track can be any or all of the above, but usually means rail, sleepers, ballast and fastenings together, with formation / drainage done in about 20% of cases.

However once you have to renew the ballast, it is almost always more efficient in whole life terms to renew the sleepers and rails as well, as the cost of the new materials is a relatively small proportion of the job. In fact it is usually actually cheaper in initial cost terms to replace rails and sleepers with new than save the old ones. The process of dismantling and temporarily storing the old stuff takes longer and needs more plant and manpower than it does to simply cut the old track into 20 metre panels, chuck it on a train, and get it away. If the old sleepers have any life in them they can be reused elsewhere; rail will typically be scrapped unless it is in in very good condition. (The scrap value is generally more than the cost of unloading and reloading the rail at a depot, plus doing the necessary ultrasonic checks to ensure the rail is fit for reuse).

Thank you. I enjoy technical explanations such as this on this forum.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
How does a railway achieve narrow lanes, pray tell? There is only (normally) 300mm between trains on adjacent lines.

I know you are the expert here but I have to question 300mm between trains with closing speeds of 250mph with only 12 inches in old money separation.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Dr_Paul

Established Member
Joined
3 Sep 2013
Messages
1,358
Ballast loses its angularity over time, partly through small movement under the passage of trains, and partly through tamping. Tiny pieces break off, creating fines (essentially sand) which clog the ballast causing it to lose its drainage properties. Rounded ballast is also not so good at locking sleepers into place, so more minor movement occurs and then the problem escalates. There are some locations around the country where limestone ballast was used; this is less hard than granite and will become, a problem much more quickly. Formation life depends on the geology underneath. Decent rock or sand formation is great, clay and peat / fen is not. Clay is well know for pumping up through the ballast causing a 'wet spot' which causes all sorts of geometry and track defects. Digging out a wet spot on a wet Tuesday night in February is (in my experience) the hardest job on the railway. Any replacement of ballast and formation more than an occasional wet spot is a renewal.

Have there been any technical changes implemented that have reduced the number and severity of wet spots, or is it because of a more rigorous maintenance regime? One line that I travel regularly, the main line up to Waterloo, used to have horrendous wet spots where the track would bounce an inch or two and water would splash up when a train passed over, particularly between New Malden and Wimbledon. These days there are far fewer of them and the ones that exist are relatively small.
 

Joseph_Locke

Established Member
Joined
14 Apr 2012
Messages
1,878
Location
Within earshot of trains passing the one and half
I know you are the expert here but I have to question 300mm between trains with closing speeds of 250mph with only 12 inches in old money separation.

I refer you to the former HMRI "blue book" and the current standard (GI/RT7073) section 3.1.2.1 "Clearances in the upper sector" - >=100mm (four statute inches) at 125mph both ways is "normal". A standard 1970mm track interval gives, generally, 300mm on the straight.
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
29,176
Have there been any technical changes implemented that have reduced the number and severity of wet spots, or is it because of a more rigorous maintenance regime? One line that I travel regularly, the main line up to Waterloo, used to have horrendous wet spots where the track would bounce an inch or two and water would splash up when a train passed over, particularly between New Malden and Wimbledon. These days there are far fewer of them and the ones that exist are relatively small.

Yes, albeit some time ago. Wherever track is renewed in areas of known poor formation / geology, a geotextile layer is placed between the formation and the bottom ballast. In some cases 100mm of sand is used instead. The geotextile layer is essentially a plastic membrane that lets water through downwards, but not fines / solids upwards. It costs somewhat more than top notch carpet. This considerably reduces wet spots, although some do get through if the geo is torn on installation or subsequently (eg by a tamper going too deep).
 
Last edited:

Why

Member
Joined
5 Feb 2014
Messages
44
Don't look like holes to me, more like scaling.

Assure you holes big time!! ... so taken aback by it as a crisp packet other side of rail. Anyone on the forum ever goes to Durrington on Sea please confirm!! Portsmouth side central to platform
 

Peter Mugridge

Veteran Member
Joined
8 Apr 2010
Messages
14,817
Location
Epsom
Assure you holes big time!! ... so taken aback by it as a crisp packet other side of rail. Anyone on the forum ever goes to Durrington on Sea please confirm!! Portsmouth side central to platform

Until a couple of years ago the conductor rail at Epsom platform 4 was riddled with holes and it had been like that for several years before it was replaced. So while I haven't been to Durrington recently, I can certainly verify that conductor rails do get corroded through like that.
 

Ships

Member
Joined
25 Apr 2013
Messages
337
Thank you. I enjoy technical explanations such as this on this forum.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I know you are the expert here but I have to question 300mm between trains with closing speeds of 250mph with only 12 inches in old money separation.

Some one the tunnel clearances on the south WCML tunnels for two tilt failed pendolinos is in the order of mm (which I'm told is one of the reasons for ATG)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Yes, albeit some time ago. Wherever track is renewed in areas of known poor formation / geology, a geotextile layer is placed between the formation and the bottom ballast. In some cases 100mm of sand is used instead. The geotextile layer is essentially a plastic membrane that lets water through downwards, but not fines / solids upwards. It costs somewhat more than top notch carpet. This considerably reduces wet spots, although some do get through if the geo is torn on installation or subsequently (eg by a tamper going too deep).

Although you should never be renewing with ballast at depths of less than 200mm (plus 50mm extra if your adding geo textile) so tamping tynes should in theory never get near your geotextile layer.

Geotextile isn't just installed where you've got formation failure, generally anywhere the formation is fairly cohesive and could migrate up into the ballast, on most of the track bed designs I've had back even for reballasting geo is specified.

It should be said of you've got standing water or wet material then sand blanket replacement geo is useless, fixing the drainage first should always be a priority, but sand is generally the better option for formation treatment.
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
31,385
Some one the tunnel clearances on the south WCML tunnels for two tilt failed pendolinos is in the order of mm (which I'm told is one of the reasons for ATG)

Is that 'Absolute Track Geometry'? It's probably worth explaining sudden new abbreviations... :D
 

Ships

Member
Joined
25 Apr 2013
Messages
337
Is that 'Absolute Track Geometry'? It's probably worth explaining sudden new abbreviations... :D

Apologies, down side of working on them is the propensity to slip into endless acronyms. Yes I do mean absolute track geometry.
 

D Foster

Member
Joined
5 Jan 2016
Messages
152
Location
N Staffs
Being a mere minion (not the yellow variety) I was fascinated when I saw my first "dynamic envelope" diagram.

Apart from that -

I was also told by "one wot knows" that at one time it frequently occurred that when CWR (continuous welded rail) was installed there was a tendency to continue to get bad spots where there had previously been bad joints. I imagine that over the years this may have been resolved by more substantial formation as well as track renewal?

:D
 

Ploughman

Established Member
Joined
15 Jan 2010
Messages
2,889
Location
Near where the 3 ridings meet
I was also told by "one wot knows" that at one time it frequently occurred that when CWR (continuous welded rail) was installed there was a tendency to continue to get bad spots where there had previously been bad joints. I imagine that over the years this may have been resolved by more substantial formation as well as track renewal?

:D
Yes, unless you dig them out or deep scarify them Joint Memory in the ballast will come back and haunt you.
You should if at all possible, never reinstate a joint in the same bed. If you have the chance move it a few beds along.
When we tamped though our winter relay on the NYMR we did an ALC trace before and after. This did show initially the old locations of the dipped joints.
But deep Ballast, New FB UIC56 rail and G44 sleepers at reduced spacing seems to have cured that.
 

Philip Phlopp

Established Member
Joined
31 May 2015
Messages
3,004
or get a commission on each sale of Ellis' British Railway Engineering Encyclopaedia ;)

Yes please.

I was only suggesting it as I seemed to be typing rigid overhead conductor rather than ROC over and over in several electrification threads.
 

DarloRich

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
29,278
Location
Fenny Stratford
Yes please.

I was only suggesting it as I seemed to be typing rigid overhead conductor rather than ROC over and over in several electrification threads.

It is a useful tome. I have one on my desk/locker when i get told off for having a messy desk.

I do think a sticky would be a good idea as the books are quite expensive! Although I MUST NOT do what i did in a boring meeting which is invent TLA's ;)
 
Last edited:

Philip Phlopp

Established Member
Joined
31 May 2015
Messages
3,004
It is a useful tome. I have one on my desk/locker when i get told off for having a messy desk.

I do think a sticky would be a good idea as the books are quite expensive! Although I MUST NOT do what i did in a boring meeting which is invent TLA's ;)

They're not too pricey, getting hold of them can be difficult though, presume they have small print runs as Amazon and distributors seem to be out of stock more often than not.
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
29,176
It is a useful tome. I have one on my desk/locker when i get told off for having a messy desk.

I do think a sticky would be a good idea as the books are quite expensive! Although I MUST NOT do what i did in a boring meeting which is invent TLA's ;)

The very best ELR is TLA!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top