Lifting the Great Harwood loop line

[Andy873]

Hi everyone!

I'm trying to track down the last days of the Great Harwood loop line and how old I was when I saw a steam locomotive go by my Grandfather's house.

It could not be later than 4th August 1968, and no sooner than June 1967 - so here is my question:

If you have a 9 mile single track line, how long would it have taken to lift it in 1967/68 once they (BR) decided to do it?

Would two months be about correct - I have an email stating they were lifting the down line Sept/Oct 1965 - but it doesn't state if they simply began lifting it, or they had completed it in two months.

My problem is loco 48218 - it was withdrawn 30/9/1967, and there is a photo of it as the "works train probably the last engine to run on the line as they lifted the track" - but no date for the photo!

If 48218 was withdrawn 30/9/1967, the up line must have been lifted between August and September 1967 - would BR really time that to an engine being withdrawn? or do you think by the end of September they had finished and found no other use for the engine more likely?

I know this is not strictly about signalling on a signalling forum - but a lot of you here know a lot more about railways than I do, and I think a lot of will find this an interesting question!

By the way, 48218 was sent to Cashmore's Great Bridge Feb 1968 and scrapped.

Thanks,
Andy.

 

[30907]

Haven't lived in Great Harwood long enough to know the answer, but have you tried contacting one of the local websites/FB pages. PM me if you need contacts.

 

[Clarence Yard]

The withdrawal of the engine (apart from the date) isn't the deciding factor here - the 8F fleet were being withdrawn at a fast weekly rate by this stage. But the use of a particular engine will certainly narrow down the date of the train concerned.

However, post closure trains may be connected with the removal of valuable equipment required elsewhere (or items for scrap) rather than just the lifting of the track itself.

 

[Firesprite]

The Swanage Branch was lifted in six weeks.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Whilst not really part of your query, Padiham was one of the three stations on the North Lancashire loop line, having its last passenger service in 1957.

However, the rail connection to Padiham Power Station was retained for deliveries of coal and these continued until as late as 1993.

 

[30907]

But served from the Rose Grove end, not via Great Harwood Junction.

The L&Y Society might have useful contacts, but their booklet on the Loop doesn't mention lifting.

 

[Andy873]

Thanks to everyone,

After being told about the swanage line I read about it, and it was indeed pulled within a few weeks, so I guess 2 months for a now single track with no sidings all the way to the Padiham power station end (around 7 miles) would be no problem.

So a rough rule of thumb would be (depending on conditions etc) about a mile a week.

I have made a few useful contacts at the L & Y society, and a book about the line is on it's to me.

It's a shame that these events weren't better documented - does anyone know of other examples of a line being pulled up documented on-line?

Thanks,
Andy.

 

[Darren R]

Hi everyone!

I'm trying to track down the last days of the Great Harwood loop line and how old I was when I saw a steam locomotive go by my Grandfather's house.

It could not be later than 4th August 1968, and no sooner than June 1967 - so here is my question:

If you have a 9 mile single track line, how long would it have taken to lift it in 1967/68 once they (BR) decided to do it?

Would two months be about correct - I have an email stating they were lifting the down line Sept/Oct 1965 - but it doesn't state if they simply began lifting it, or they had completed it in two months.

My problem is loco 48218 - it was withdrawn 30/9/1967, and there is a photo of it as the "works train probably the last engine to run on the line as they lifted the track" - but no date for the photo!

If 48218 was withdrawn 30/9/1967, the up line must have been lifted between August and September 1967 - would BR really time that to an engine being withdrawn? or do you think by the end of September they had finished and found no other use for the engine more likely?

I know this is not strictly about signalling on a signalling forum - but a lot of you here know a lot more about railways than I do, and I think a lot of will find this an interesting question!

By the way, 48218 was sent to Cashmore's Great Bridge Feb 1968 and scrapped.

Thanks,
Andy.

Forgive me, but there seems to be some confusion with the possible dates. You say that the earliest date you could have seen the steam locomotive pass your grandfather's house was in June 1967 and the latest 4th August 1968.

However, assuming the information given on this website is correct (http://www.steamingnorth.com/displayimage.php?album=12&pid=357#top_display_media), Class 8F No 48218 was the last loco to use the western part of the line. If, as you say, this loco was withdrawn on 30th September 1967, that reduces the possible time frame to between June and late September 1967.

Unfortunately I can find no specific references to when the Great Harwood Loop was lifted. The line lost its scheduled passenger services in December 1957, but continued in regular use until the summer of 1963. Not only did the line continue to see freight services, it was also a useful alternative route for the summer traffic from Yorkshire and North East Lancashire to Blackpool avoiding Accrington. Photographs on the web site linked above seem to show that Great Harwood and Padiham also managed to retain some Wakes Week services to Blackpool until 1963, despite the stations having closed some six years earlier. The line remained double track throughout from Great Harwood Junction to Rose Grove until closure, and other than the sidings to Martholme Pit (which closed in the late 1940s/early 1950s), all the goods yards retained their connections - although how much traffic Simonstone yard saw by the early 1960s is anyone's guess.

The line was closed to all traffic between Padiham and Great Harwood Junction (at the Blackburn end) in early November 1964. After a line was closed to all traffic, usually the first phase would be as many visits as necessary from the asset stripping trains to reclaim anything that could be useful elsewhere. Next up would be visits by the demolition trains to remove buildings, stations, footbridges etc, and only then would the track be removed. The actual track removal was generally the easiest and quickest; a couple of months for the eight or so miles west of Padiham is entirely feasible.

Incidentally, the remaining part of the branch between Rose Grove West Junction and Padiham remained double track after the rest of the line was lifted. It seems to have been singled in the early 1970s as part of the rationalising and resignalling of East Lancashire to Preston PSB.

 

[Andy873]

Darren,

Thanks for replying, I posted the thread before I found the photo and researched about loco 48218.

I am very quickly coming to the same conclusion about when the track was lifted - the same as you (June to Sept 1967).

That's very interesting to know the Padiham section remained double track until the 1970's - I assumed that only the up line to Padiham B power station remained.

I saw a video yesterday made in the late 1960's, part of the film shows the demolition teams removing track - boy did those guys work quick! - so two months is very possible.

I know that sometime late 67 to early 68, BR sold the ballast and sleepers at Martholme to contractors who promptly removed it.

Thanks very much for the information - I think you have confirmed what I was thinking.

Andy.

 

[Andy873]

Darren, thanks to you and other contacts I have made over the last few months I think this is the best timescale of what happened:

The last scheduled passenger train left Blackburn at 10-47 pm on 30th November 1957 with just six passengers on board.

The passenger service was officially withdrawn from 2nd December 1957.

Goods traffic continued to use the line until 2nd November 1964 when the line closed to all traffic except that for Padiham B power station.

Asset trains now run stripping anything of use elsewhere.
After that (1965) demolition trains go along the line.

Great Harwood station was demolished in 1965 (supported by photos).
At the same time, the down line was lifted (also supported by photos).

The down line was lifted Sept / Oct 1965 (supported by photos / email from Bernard Bond - who knows a great deal about the line), also confirms all track leading off and points were also lifted.

Any points remaining were clipped / locked etc.

By 1966, only the up line remained, except from Padiham where both the up and down lines remained.

1966 and early 1967, the up line was used as a diversion in case there was a problem at Accrington (on the east lancs line).

Sometime between June and the end of September, the up line was lifted.

Autumn 1967 or Spring 1968, BR was selling ballast / sleepers around Martholme.

Spring 1969, cuttings were being filled in around Cunliffe near Blackburn (supported by email from someone who walked the line).

The rest of the cuttings were filled in 1969 to 1970.

BR attempts to sell the land to Lancashire county council in 1971 who decline (LCC document).

One line was lifted in the early 1970's from Padiham to Padiham junction (Rose Grove), but not sure if it was the up or down line.

The last train delivered coal to Padiham B power station 31st March 1993.

Not long after the power station was demolished, the remaining track was vandalised, and subsequently lifted.

Today, only a very shot piece of Padiham junction track remains at Rose Grove.

End of the line.

So how do I try and confirm the months / years June 1967 to September 1967?

Simply by this, I would have been too young to remember anything before June 1967 (exactly 1 year old).

I remember not only seeing a steam loco pulling wagons, but also the conversation I had with my Grandfather - who was very surprised and confused at seeing the train.

He then took me down to what was left of the goods yard at Gt Harwood, a short walk away, passing Gt Harwood West Signal box on the way. I remember seeing it, I thought (as a very young boy) it was a house!

This all happened before 30/9/1967 as 48218 was the last engine to work the line and 48218 was withdrawn to Rose Grove MPD 30/9/1967.

So the lifting of the up line was done between June and 30/9/1967, as 48218's final duty was to help lift it, then when that was finished, the engine withdrawn and scrapped.

Many of these details have been confirmed by the NRM at York, the rest by logic.

Does what I've posted here seem logical to you?

This was typical of BR, and the reason why we are all stuck in traffic jams today.

Thanks,
Andy.

 

[30907]

Does what I've posted here seem logical to you?

This was typical of BR, and the reason why we are all stuck in traffic jams today.

Thanks,
Andy.

Seems pretty likely. It wasn't uncommon for one line to be lifted well before the other after closures.

Sadly, though, by all accounts the line had lost its justification for existing well before it closed and I don't blame BR for closing it. While I would love to have it back I can't see that it would serve any useful purpose.

 

[Bevan Price]

Seems pretty likely. It wasn't uncommon for one line to be lifted well before the other after closures.

Sadly, though, by all accounts the line had lost its justification for existing well before it closed and I don't blame BR for closing it. While I would love to have it back I can't see that it would serve any useful purpose.

Great Harwood & Padiham each have populations of about 10,000 - possibly just about large enough to sustain a rail passenger service. However, the service provided (1956/1957 timetable, just before closure), was not lavish, and was almost certainly unable to compete with more frequent bus services
---------------------------------------------------------------

Services via Great Harwood & Padiham (1956/57)
Eastbound:
05:35, 06:32 Blackburn - Burnley Central
07:46 Blackburn - Colne
12:12 Blackburn - Burnley Central
13:13 (SO) Blackburn - Colne
14:10, 16:33 Blackburn - Colne
17:45 Blackburn - Skipton (SX, starts Liverpool Exchange at 16:40)
19:00, 22:10 Blackburn - Colne
22:47 (SO) Blackburn - Rose Grove

Westbound:
07:00 Burnley Central - Blackburn
07:39 Burnley Central - Preston
09:07 Rose Grove - Preston
10:55 Burnley Central - Blackburn (to Bolton, SO)
13:00 (SO) Padiham - Southport
13:15 Burnley Central - Blackburn
16:15 Colne - Blackburn
17:32 Rose Grove - Blackburn - Chorley
17:33, 22:00 Colne - Blackburn

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Services via Great Harwood & Padiham (1956/57)....Eastbound:
17:45 Blackburn - Skipton (SX, starts Liverpool Exchange at 16:40)

Interesting. Do you have the full list of stations from Liverpool Exchange that were called at by this SX service?

 

[Andy873]

This is a great site for me, and it contains many old timetables.

Hopefully you might find some details here:
http://www.ribblevalleyrail.co.uk/Old Timetables.htm

I found Gt Harwood on here (1938 Bradshaw, and 1957 BR).

 

[Clarence Yard]

So the lifting of the up line was done between June and 30/9/1967, as 48218's final duty was to help lift it, then when that was finished, the engine withdrawn and scrapped.

That is quite an assumption regarding 48218. It may well have had other duties before it was withdrawn. It all depends on the exact date it was photographed on the lifting/recovery job and whether it hauled anything else after that date.

That is something, I suspect, we will now never know.

 

[Andy873]

Bevan,

Thanks for posting the timetable, I found one from 1 Jan to 30 June 1957 and it shows similar times.

Clarence,

Yes it is a big assumption! (and there's every chance I'm wrong).

Looking closely at the two photos of 48218, I can see several things in the background.

1. There are still leaves on the trees (so it cannot be winter).
2. The background is foggy in both directions - not due to the smoke from 48218. The met records from September 1967 states England had 25 out of 30 days of fog. It was not as bad September 1966.

Because of the fog it suggests to me it must have been around September.

Next, what year was it?

This is the difficult question, I've not been able to get an answer from the person who took the photos.

On one hand, one track has already been lifted, this puts it no earlier than October 1965, that's when it was pulled.

On the other hand, I cannot see any weeds coming through the remaining ballast - they may have spread weed killer, or they might simply have not bothered spending any more money on the line - I don't know.

Given that I was born mid 1966, I simply would have been too young to remember a steam loco (which ever one it was) go past in 66.

And by early 1968, ballast and sleepers were being sold near Martholme.

The best logical "guess" I can narrow down to is I saw a steam loco sometime between June and September 1967.

As for the actual date of the photos of 48218, I agree we may never know.

 

[30907]

Interesting. Do you have the full list of stations from Liverpool Exchange that were called at by this SX service?

Fascinating. Assuming the 1958 service was identical apart from re-routing via Accrington,
it was detached from the 4.40pm Liverpool-Blackpool (which had called only at Burscough Jn) at Midge Hall, left there at 5.19 and ran fast to Mill Hill, then all stations except Thornton in Craven, arriving Skipton 7.00pm.

The equivalent westbound train was the 7.24am from Bradford FS, all stations to Mill Hill, then Lostock Hall and Croston (both SX), Burscough Jn, Ormskirk and Exchange. The Blackpool train was just a few minutes ahead.

On the service level on the Loop in general, you have to remember that Great Harwood (and I assume Padiham) were very self contained towns in those days and there would have been relatively little commuting - and people were much more geared up to using buses anyway. That was true of most of urban Lancashire and Yorkshire of course.

 

[Andy873]

By 1958, the route would have been via Accrington, although passenger specials still ran the line until summer 1963.

So it is possible that passengers may have been diverted along the loop line from time to time, just not stopping at Gt Harwood or Padiham.

The line was built to serve Martholme colliery and the mills of both towns, but coal production stopped around 1930, and by the 60's mills were also closing.

The very reason for the line existing was now gone, or quickly going.

As for passenger numbers, it could be summed up by a comment my father once made, saying trains were expensive to travel on.

A second class day return between Blackburn and Burnley via the loop line cost nearly 2 shillings in 1957.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The Grade II listed Martholme viaduct that is situated between Simonstone and Great Harwood is a good landmark reminder of this particular loop line.

 

[Andy873]

The viaduct is a beautiful building, seen it many times.

Apparantly, it was going to be a wooden bridge but coal was found at the site. The L & Y railway sold the coal seams and that paid for a stone bridge instead.

Martholme viaduct was the last section to be completed joining both ends of the line together.

Ironically, due to old coal workings the first attempt to build the bridge foundations collapsed delaying the opening of the line until 1877.

The whole line cost 300,000 Pounds then, and needed 39 bridges just for a 9 mile line & it was the most expensive railway line the L & Y created - and if for nothing else, it deserves to be remembered.

With help from others, I've made notes, diagrams, timescales etc about the line and I'm thinking about creating / dedicating a website about it - do you think that would be a great idea, or just a waste of time?

 

[30907]

Worth doing IMO even with the lapse of time.

Local reports say the viaduct is to be reopened to walkers, but it really needs a route onwards to Reed.....

 

[Bevan Price]

Fascinating. Assuming the 1958 service was identical apart from re-routing via Accrington, it was detached from the 4.40pm Liverpool-Blackpool (which had called only at Burscough Jn) at Midge Hall, left there at 5.19 and ran fast to Mill Hill, then all stations except Thornton in Craven, arriving Skipton 7.00pm.

.

Yes - in 1956/57 timetable, it had the same stops as far as Blackburn !17:39/17:45) then Great Harwood (17:54), Simonstone (18:01), Padiham (18:04), Rose Grove (18:10/18:11) then stations to Skipton (19:00) except Reedley Hallows, Bott Lane & Thornton-in-Craven. (Times translated into 24 hour clock)

The 1947 & 1949 timetables show no public stops at either Midge Hall or Mill Hill, with no advertised stop between Burscough Jn & Blackburn.

The SO sevice to Southport ran throughout winter, and ran semi-fast from Blackburn to Todd Lane Jn, then using the Whitehouse south to west curve, calling at Longton Bridge then semi-fast to Southport, In the reverse direction, trains from Southport all ran to (or via) Accrington.

 

[Andy873]

On the copy of the BR 1957 timetable I have access to, the section covering Preston, Blackburn, Accrington, Colne & Todmorden (Gt Harwood included). I can confirm what Bevan posted previously about the times (at least through Gt Harwood, Simonstone and Padiham route).

It looks like they did this to help keep congestion down at Accrington, some train services were routed via Gt Harwood (at least on the down line going towards Colne / Skipton).

If you look at the train times, you would probably be going through Accrington around 6pm, so using the loop line was one less train to deal with at a busy time.

The more we look into this line, the more we find out - interesting.

 

[Bevan Price]

According to BRDatabase site, 48218 moved to Rose Grove depot in June 1965 and remained there until withdrawal. I would presume that other Rose Grove locos were likely to have been used on some of the track recovery trains.

http://www.brdatabase.info/locoqry.php?action=locodata&type=S&id=118756&loco=8218

 

[Andy873]

The site you linked to is a great one for information on loco's, it confirms 48218's withdrawn date.

I will never know which engine it was I saw, but looking at reported listings by spotters, almost all the engines at Rose Grove in 67 were 8F's and Black Fives.

And I know Rose Grove was one of the last three steam MDP's still in operation.

 

[Andy873]

Another fact my father told me yesterday is that the cutting going into Gt Harwood was left in tact for a while.

I've found documentation that the cutting along side the cemetery was filled in over a period of 4 years (31 March 1972 to 31 Dec 1976) by using it as a landfill site (commercial / domestic waste).

If this is true for the whole length of the cutting was left intact for 4 years before this (1968 - 1972).

My father remembers all the cutting leading right up to where the station used to be was treated the same way - landfill site.

When the cutting was sufficiently full or perhaps after the heatwave of 76 when people had had enough of this, earth was poured over it and it was landscaped.

I wonder if other cuttings on other closed lines were treated in this way?

 

[Andy873]

Here is a link to a great video, it's not about the line here, but it does show you in the second half of the film how a line was dismantled.

And I think the timescales are comparable with the Gt Harwood line.

http://www.yorkshirefilmarchive.com/film/sentimental-journey-whitby-scarborough

Enjoy.