Light Engine movements / shunts at stations

[47296lastduff]

I vaguely recall hearing that banking out of Queen Street was banned after a mishap when a train slowed for some reason, and the diesel at the rear was still giving full power. I think there was a minor derailment. This would be about mid-1970s.

 

[shap summit]

One day in the early 70 s at Penzance, I remember seeing a 42/43 bring a train into the arrival platform and, once all the passengers had disembarked, the warship pushed the coaches back out of the platform and into a siding which was next to sea and near the signal box. After a while I heard the engine wind up and the train moved forward, after a few feet a shunter uncoupled the loco which pulled forward onto another siding, the shunter changed the polnts and the coaches slowly made their own way back into the platform.
Once the coaches had passed, the loco was allowed back into the siding and then back into the platform to couple back onto the coaches ready for departure.
I don't know if it was a regular thing or a one off as a pilot loco was not available.

 

[L+Y]

Bradford A GF, next to platform 1, was kept when the station was remodelled, although the runround siding (now 'Bradford Engine Release Line') is used for stabling of units - usually GC 180s but more recently Northern units. The only time I saw it used for its intended purpose was when the scrap train from Laisterdyke (McIntyre's siding) used it to run round, that scrap train hasn't run for about ten years now though as far as I know. There is still a stop board on the BERL annoted "class 60/66 stop here" although the last few times I saw the scrap train it was worked by a class 37.

66185 Bradford Interchange - 27th April 2017

66185 having just run round the incoming loaded scrap metal from Laisterdyke European Metals. This working forms the 6D93 19:13 to Neville Hill Up Sidings, which is the second of todays trips. This diagram runs into Bradford Interchange from Laisterdyke before running round for the return to...

www.flickr.com

Here's a picture of the scrap train using the loop as recently as 2017.

 

[Pinza-C55]

There used to be an early morning move at Doncaster where an 08 coupled coaches to an overnight train while passengers were on board. I can remember it in my mind but not sure which trains they were but the possible trains are listed in my original copy of "To The Last Drop" which was carried everywhere in my Adidas bag.

ttld cover by A1 Northeastern, on Flickr

ttld page 2 by A1 Northeastern, on Flickr

 

[ac6000cw]

One day in the early 70 s at Penzance, I remember seeing a 42/43 bring a train into the arrival platform and, once all the passengers had disembarked, the warship pushed the coaches back out of the platform and into a siding which was next to sea and near the signal box. After a while I heard the engine wind up and the train moved forward, after a few feet a shunter uncoupled the loco which pulled forward onto another siding, the shunter changed the polnts and the coaches slowly made their own way back into the platform.
Once the coaches had passed, the loco was allowed back into the siding and then back into the platform to couple back onto the coaches ready for departure.
I don't know if it was a regular thing or a one off as a pilot loco was not available.

I think that's known as 'fly shunting' - given the obvious risks with letting carriages roll towards the buffer stops in a passenger station without a loco attached, I'm a bit surprised that was still allowed by the 1970s?

(Yes, I assume there would have been a guard or shunter riding on the train, ready to wind on a handbrake if necessary, but even so...)

 

[Highlandspring]

I think that's known as 'fly shunting' - given the obvious risks with letting carriages roll towards the buffer stops in a passenger station without a loco attached, I'm a bit surprised that was still allowed by the 1970s?

(Yes, I assume there would have been a guard or shunter riding on the train, ready to wind on a handbrake if necessary, but even so...)

What’s being described is gravity shunting where vehicles are allowed to roll down a gradient under the influence of gravity without needing a locomotive to get them moving. That’s how the passenger terminus at Killin was worked as there was no loop to allow a run round.

Fly shunting is where a vehicle is given a shove in the right direction by a loco and allowed to roll off on its own, or uncoupled from a moving train. You’ll always need someone to apply the handbrake during gravity or fly shunting to prevent heavy collisions unless it’s taking place in a marshalling yard with automatic retarders.

 

[edwin_m]

I think that's known as 'fly shunting' - given the obvious risks with letting carriages roll towards the buffer stops in a passenger station without a loco attached, I'm a bit surprised that was still allowed by the 1970s?

(Yes, I assume there would have been a guard or shunter riding on the train, ready to wind on a handbrake if necessary, but even so...)

Sounds highly risky if you're saying the loco had to be uncoupled on the move then get far enough ahead of the train for a set of points to be changed in between. But quite a lot was probably done in the 1970s that might not have been known about at HQ. Gravity shunting would be more likely, but is there a gradient down into the station at Penzance?

I saw fly shunting in the old Oslo West station in the 1980s but in the more conventional form where the loco pushed the train from behind without coupling. There was a member of staff standing in the front gangway with what looked like a hose sprayer that was connected to the brake pipe, so he could stop the train in the platform.

 

[ac6000cw]

but is there a gradient down into the station at Penzance?

Not as far as I remember (the lines in that area basically run along the shoreline, so it's flat).

I think there is a name for the 'flat' shunting technique 'shap summit' describes - pulling a train forwards with a loco, uncoupling the loco on-the-fly which then accelerates to create a large enough gap to allow it to be diverted onto another track, then switching the points to let the train roll onto a different track - but I can't remember what it is at the moment...

 

[Clarence Yard]

Just look at any film of the Isle of Wight in steam days and how they ran round at Cowes. The 02 would push the coaches back up the platform on the fly, the guard would hold them on the handbrake and whilst the loco was running round, the guard would let the coaches roll back towards the buffer stops.

With the short turn rounds at Cowes, it was the only practical way of working, despite being “officially” banned. An “unofficial” blind eye was employed, over several decades by the island management.

 

[edwin_m]

Just look at any film of the Isle of Wight in steam days and how they ran round at Cowes. The 02 would push the coaches back up the platform on the fly, the guard would hold them on the handbrake and whilst the loco was running round, the guard would let the coaches roll back towards the buffer stops.

With the short turn rounds at Cowes, it was the only practical way of working, despite being “officially” banned. An “unofficial” blind eye was employed, over several decades by the island management.

That's far less dangerous than what was described for Penzance, which requires the shunter to uncouple a moving train then get far enough ahead of it to change points as it approaches. The locomotive driver has to get up enough speed to give time for that to happen while presumably closely approaching a buffer stop.

 

[43096]

That's far less dangerous than what was described for Penzance, which requires the shunter to uncouple a moving train then get far enough ahead of it to change points as it approaches. The locomotive driver has to get up enough speed to give time for that to happen while presumably closely approaching a buffer stop.

No surprise, then, that works reports in the 70s and 80s always seemed to have significant numbers of locos undergoing collision damage repairs. No doubt carriage works had similar.

 

[Highlandspring]

I think there is a name for the 'flat' shunting technique 'shap summit' describes - pulling a train forwards with a loco, uncoupling the loco on-the-fly which then accelerates to create a large enough gap to allow it to be diverted onto another track, then switching the points to let the train roll onto a different track - but I can't remember what it is at the moment...

Fly shunting.

 

[ainsworth74]

Another reasonably common way of running around trains at smaller terminal stations was propelling the whole train out of the station into a loop beyond the end of the platforms, running it around, and propelling it back into the station for departure. Maybe more common at seaside resorts with excursions and summer saturday extras to which needed to clear the platforms for other trains.

Yes this arrangement persists at Saltburn. There's a loop off the line shortly before the station which can host charter services needing to stable or have a locomotive run round. Though I think in recent years services have been top and tailed so it's only really been used to stable the stock overnight before/after the charter service.

 

[ac6000cw]

Fly shunting.

But you described that up-thread as where a loco pushes (shoves, as you put it) vehicles to get them rolling, then drops back from them.

The 'Penzance' situation we're talking about is where the loco pulls the vehicles to get them rolling, then has to pull ahead of the them so it can be diverted onto a different track from the one they are about to take.

After some searching, I found the Americans use the term 'flying switch' (switching = shunting) for the pull-ahead technique (which is now banned by Federal rules), and 'kicking cars' for the push and let roll technique (which I think is also not generally allowed outside of the more 'controlled' environment of yards and the like).

Off-topic, but many years ago (with a group of other enthusiasts from the UK), I had a tour around a major hump sorting yard in Chicago - fascinating place. After we arrived and were standing around in the parking lot taking in the constant 'squealing flanges, clashing couplings and roaring diesels' atmosphere of the place, a local railfan who was with us surveyed our group and said "you lot are like kids in the candy store" - he wasn't wrong
(It was the Belt Railway of Chicago 'Clearing Yard' complex, which is 5.5 miles long with separate east and westbound humps, has 250 miles of track, and handles thousands of freight cars every day. No surprise it generates a lot of noise...)

 

[Highlandspring]

But you described that up-thread as where a loco pushes (shoves, as you put it) vehicles to get them rolling, then drops back from them.

The 'Penzance' situation we're talking about is where the loco pulls the vehicles to get them rolling, then has to pull ahead of the them so it can be diverted onto a different track from the one they are about to take.

See the bit highlighted in bold -

Fly shunting is where a vehicle is given a shove in the right direction by a loco and allowed to roll off on its own, or uncoupled from a moving train.

 

[ac6000cw]

OK, so the term 'fly shunting' is used for both situations (in the UK context) - correct?

For an interesting diversion (in terms of shunting trains), about 15 years ago I watched standard gauge wagons being shunted onto narrow-gauge transporter wagons at Jenbach, Austria, for a trip along the Zillertalbahn
line. I think they *may* have used a 'shunting pole' for some of it i.e. moving vehicles on one track using a loco on the adjacent track. The narrow-gauge shunting loco looks tiny alongside the full-size wagons! Watch the video below from 1:55 onwards. The 'Wickham trolley' style motorized PW car + trailer going past on the mainline is fun at the end too.

 

[Highlandspring]

OK, so the term 'fly shunting' is used for both situations (in the UK context) - correct?

Yes that's right.

 

[D6130]

Yes this arrangement persists at Saltburn. There's a loop off the line shortly before the station which can host charter services needing to stable or have a locomotive run round. Though I think in recent years services have been top and tailed so it's only really been used to stable the stock overnight before/after the charter service.

The same thing happens at Mallaig with the Jacobite steam service.

 

[ac6000cw]

There is an interesting layout at Kilarney in Ireland, where the continuation of the route (from Mallow) to Tralee splits off at junction a short distance before the terminal station at Kilarney. This means that Mallow <-> Tralee passenger trains (in both directions) have to reverse into or out of the station before continuing their journey, unless they're not calling at Kilarney at all.

Map - https://www.google.com/maps/place/K...abb4f3ac7aa330b9!8m2!3d52.059283!4d-9.5021346

 

[Taunton]

I vaguely recall hearing that banking out of Queen Street was banned after a mishap when a train slowed for some reason, and the diesel at the rear was still giving full power. I think there was a minor derailment. This would be about mid-1970s.

Certainly in the days of steam, and early diesels (D6100) the banker was coupled to the train, with a coupling release wire operated from the cab of dedicated locos. By the time I was watching it, also mid-70s, this had been given up and they just pushed free. The release wire had only applied to the dedicated pilots used, where incoming trains now departing, whether ecs or next service, were banked by whatever had brought them in. I do recall some of the assistance, typically by Class 27s, was decidedly lively, and if departing from the east side platforms quite a speed would be attained and the banker would notably rock on the crossover just inside the tunnel.

 

[Ken H]

how does the Penzance thing work. The coaches will have had automatic brakes, so once you uncouple the loco, the brakes come on. No way of releasing them except by attaching a loco.
Or have I missed something?

 

[Cheshire Scot]

how does the Penzance thing work. The coaches will have had automatic brakes, so once you uncouple the loco, the brakes come on. No way of releasing them except by attaching a loco.
Or have I missed something?

Manually release the brakes (pull the wires) on each coach.

 

[edwin_m]

Manually release the brakes (pull the wires) on each coach.

With air brakes the isolating cocks could be closed to bottle the air up in the train*. With vacuum brakes I think the pipe had to be attached to a separate fitting to seal it, so "all the vacuum would drain out" while that was being done.

*This is no doubt highly unauthorised, but I suspect the same is true of whatever was done at Penzance, a long way from the GM at Paddington...

 

[OVS Flatbottom]

There is an interesting layout at Kilarney in Ireland, where the continuation of the route (from Mallow) to Tralee splits off at junction a short distance before the terminal station at Kilarney. This means that Mallow <-> Tralee passenger trains (in both directions) have to reverse into or out of the station before continuing their journey, unless they're not calling at Kilarney at all.

Map - https://www.google.com/maps/place/K...abb4f3ac7aa330b9!8m2!3d52.059283!4d-9.5021346

However, I don't think a pilot engine was ever used for this (though I could be wrong) - I think trains would set back with the train engine propelling from the station into the terminal siding at the junction or vice versa.

That said, I half-remember somewhere that, between Athlone Midland station closing in 1985 and the Galway Night Mail ceasing to run via Mullingar about two years later, a pilot engine was used for the reverse movements between the Midland and Southern stations. If this is true, it raises the question of why passenger trains could be propelled at Killarney and not Athlone - possibly because Killarney was considered to have grandfather rights. I also have first-hand experience of Rosslare Harbour circa 1987, when the train from Dublin (although shown in the timetable as going to the Pier station), would effectively terminate at the Mainland station, where anyone continuing to the ferries would board a bus; the train engine would then run round and propel the coaches to the Pier station, from where the return train would start. Presumably the Pier had no run-round facilities at the time, and the bus was used to avoid propelling a loaded train. (The original Europort station, itself now gone, replaced Mainland and Pier a couple of years later.)

 

[dazzler]

However, I don't think a pilot engine was ever used for this (though I could be wrong) - I think trains would set back with the train engine propelling from the station into the terminal siding at the junction or vice versa.

From personal experience, I can confirm that in February 2004 the train engine propelled out of/into Killarney when heading towards/away from Tralee respectively. On the way back from Tralee, we crossed the next Tralee-bound train at Killarney, which also propelled out, after we had propelled in!

 

[Gloster]

Recollection is that until not many years ago (1980s, 1990s?) it was not possible to run directly from Rathmore to Farranfore without calling at Killarney. All trains, whether passenger or goods, had to run into Killarney station and then reverse out into the headshunt before continuing on towards Farranfore and Tralee. It was the reverse for trains from Farranfore..

 

[ac6000cw]

From personal experience, I can confirm that in February 2004 the train engine propelled out of/into Killarney when heading towards/away from Tralee respectively. On the way back from Tralee, we crossed the next Tralee-bound train at Killarney, which also propelled out, after we had propelled in!

That's my recollection too (of the one trip I've had over the line, in about the same timeframe).

I don't think anyone has mentioned Inverness yet, where I remember loco-hauled trains on occasion being propelled back into platforms on the 'wrong' side of the Y-shaped station platform layout, back in early 1980's.