List of preservation railway's expansion plans in future

[Peter C]

I think that the GWSR want to extend back to Honeybourne. Seen as it's known as the Honeybourne Line, it would be lovely to see it as it once was. It would link up with the mainline at Honeybourne station, allowing for something like at Kidderminster; charter trains could be run on the UP line (WSH-OXF/PAD) as far as Honeybourne, where they could be directed onto GWSR metals and run to Toddington, where there are the proper services to keep the engine in good condition.*

*I can see this being impractical, but it could work if an engine fails?

 

[reddragon]

I think that the GWSR want to extend back to Honeybourne. Seen as it's known as the Honeybourne Line, it would be lovely to see it as it once was. It would link up with the mainline at Honeybourne station, allowing for something like at Kidderminster; charter trains could be run on the UP line (WSH-OXF/PAD) as far as Honeybourne, where they could be directed onto GWSR metals and run to Toddington, where there are the proper services to keep the engine in good condition.*

*I can see this being impractical, but it could work if an engine fails?

I think that this will happen one day as there is little preventing it happening other than time & £££££

The housing development around Long Marston and a link to Stratford would make this very financially viable too. Today, Honeybourne is a bit of a dead end village halt!

 

[Paul Hitchcock]

I think that the GWSR want to extend back to Honeybourne. Seen as it's known as the Honeybourne Line, it would be lovely to see it as it once was. It would link up with the mainline at Honeybourne station, allowing for something like at Kidderminster; charter trains could be run on the UP line (WSH-OXF/PAD) as far as Honeybourne, where they could be directed onto GWSR metals and run to Toddington, where there are the proper services to keep the engine in good condition.*

*I can see this being impractical, but it could work if an engine fails?

I think that this will happen one day as there is little preventing it happening other than time & £££££

The housing development around Long Marston and a link to Stratford would make this very financially viable too. Today, Honeybourne is a bit of a dead end village halt!

All hopelessly romantic I think.

 

[alexl92]

Embsay and Bolton Abbey certainly has an aspiration to extend to Skipton but I don't know if it is any more than wishful thinking.

It’s totally feasible, but requires a significant investment to bring the relevant platforms at Skipton back into use, and would also require an agreement with NR as the last section into Skipton is on NR metals.

I’m not sure what that would mean as far as mainline certification is concerned, given that almost their entire steam fleet is ex-industrial tank engines.

Personally I think that for this line, the Skipton link could be key. It means that it would run into an actual town, rather than between two small (albeit lovely) villages, and a town which is already a bit of a tourist attraction in itself.

At the moment it’s a short ride each way with very little on the two station sites unless you’re going to go and walk around the dales (a lovely thing to do but not everyone’s cuppa). A connection to Skipton would offer the opportunity to offer a similar experience to the KWVR, I think - Bolton Abbey at one end and a pretty market town at the other.

There’s also the possibility of an extension at the other end as far as Addingham in the future though again it would require a lot of money to happen. Unfortunately the final step to Ilkley is considered to be basically impossible... shame cos Skipton to Ikley or vice-versa by steam or heritage diesel would be wonderful!

(for those not familiar, the original line was : Skipton - Embsay - Bolton Abbey - Addingham - Ilkley. Only the middle currently remains.)

 

[Peter C]

All hopelessly romantic I think.

It would be nice to see it happen, though, surely?
As it's my nearest heritage railway I may be a little biased!
Honeybourne station is in need of something to make it more like it once was.

 

[Paul Hitchcock]

It would be nice to see it happen, though, surely?
As it's my nearest heritage railway I may be a little biased!
Honeybourne station is in need of something to make it more like it once was.

Much more important to ensure that the hard work and financial sacrifice of those involved is not wasted. "Nice" tends to be a very easy weak word to utter. "Viable" is much more to the point.

 

[Peter C]

Much more important to ensure that the hard work and financial sacrifice of those involved is not wasted. "Nice" tends to be a very easy weak word to utter. "Viable" is much more to the point.

Fair point. People, me included, seem to forget that heritage railways, even though they aren't part of the National Rail network, are still businesses and have to make a profit to keep going.

 

[Cowley]

Fair point. People, me included, seem to forget that heritage railways, even though they aren't part of the National Rail network, are still businesses and have to make a profit to keep going.

That is of course correct.
But...
We wouldn't have what we have preserved in this country if it wasn't for a certain level of dreaming.
Dreams coupled with good business sense has got us to where we are I would say.

 

[Peter C]

That is of course correct.
But...
We wouldn't have what we have preserved in this country if it wasn't for a certain level of dreaming.
Dreams coupled with good business sense has got us to where we are I would say.

Fair point.
In my opinion, having read up on the subject of the GWSR to Honeybourne, I think that it would bring a lot of attention to the line. Considering that it would allow for mainline connectivity, and the fact that the line already runs to Cheltenham, a major town, I think that a extension would be a good business idea.
I also read up on the subject of an extension south to Cheltenham Spa, but that'll certainly never happen as the council have built a cycle bridge in place of the old rail bridge and the only other way to connect to Cheltenham is to sell some of the land they already own for housing and to buy some fields. Then, they'd have to built a convoluted S-Bend to reach the mainline.

 

[Paul Hitchcock]

Fair point.
In my opinion, having read up on the subject of the GWSR to Honeybourne, I think that it would bring a lot of attention to the line. Considering that it would allow for mainline connectivity, and the fact that the line already runs to Cheltenham, a major town, I think that a extension would be a good business idea.
I also read up on the subject of an extension south to Cheltenham Spa, but that'll certainly never happen as the council have built a cycle bridge in place of the old rail bridge and the only other way to connect to Cheltenham is to sell some of the land they already own for housing and to buy some fields. Then, they'd have to built a convoluted S-Bend to reach the mainline.

"Attention" From whom? Gricers perhaps but the "normals" who pay most of the bills won't give a damn about main line connections, public transport facilities or many of the other things which get some enthusiasts in a froth. These are are visitor attractions, not providers of public transport and it is disappointing that each new generation of enthusiasts appears to need to discover this the hard way.

 

[Peter C]

"Attention" From whom? Gricers perhaps but the "normals" who pay most of the bills won't give a damn about main line connections, public transport facilities or many of the other things which get some enthusiasts in a froth. These are are visitor attractions, not providers of public transport and it is disappointing that each new generation of enthusiasts appears to need to discover this the hard way.

I think that heritage railways, especially in the case of the GWSR*, are more and more becoming ways for people to get from A to B. That was the original intention of these lines; to move people from one place to another. This might seem silly, but what would the builders and investors of our heritage railways think of their use in the modern day? I think that they would like to know that their railways are still being used as they were intended.
This may also be a stretch, but think about it;
Mainline connections make it easier for people to get to the heritage railway.
More people going to the heritage railway means more money for said line.
Heritage lines with more money mean heritage lines can invest in more projects.
More projects means more media coverage.
More coverage means more visitors.
More visitors means more money.
At the end of the day, a mainline connection would provide no only instant media coverage for the heritage railway, but it would also make another source of income for said line.

*In my experience, I have seen and heard many people using the railway as a means of transportation.

 

[Paul Hitchcock]

I think that heritage railways, especially in the case of the GWSR*, are more and more becoming ways for people to get from A to B. That was the original intention of these lines; to move people from one place to another. This might seem silly, but what would the builders and investors of our heritage railways think of their use in the modern day? I think that they would like to know that their railways are still being used as they were intended.
This may also be a stretch, but think about it;
Mainline connections make it easier for people to get to the heritage railway.
More people going to the heritage railway means more money for said line.
Heritage lines with more money mean heritage lines can invest in more projects.
More projects means more media coverage.
More coverage means more visitors.
More visitors means more money.
At the end of the day, a mainline connection would provide no only instant media coverage for the heritage railway, but it would also make another source of income for said line.

*In my experience, I have seen and heard many people using the railway as a means of transportation.

Just about all of this is "a stretch" and no more than wishful thought. A very few lines can perform a park and ride function and make some money in doing so but the circumstances have to be right and IMHO track connections with Network Rail are to be avoided.

 

[Cowley]

Just about all of this is "a stretch" and no more than wishful thought. A very few lines can perform a park and ride function and make some money in doing so but the circumstances have to be right and IMHO track connections with Network Rail are to be avoided.

So the Mid Hants, Swanage, Severn Valley, Bo Ness, Isle of Wight, Bluebell, Spa Valley and all the others shouldn't have gone to the effort then?
A mainline connection is about more than just bringing in passengers from the rest of the network. It's also about the easy movement of stock and opportunities to diversify into engineering, repainting, offering storage etc. A lot of these things are opportunities that have opened up post privatisation, and there are excellent (and improving facilities at Toddington.

On top of this is the possibility of bringing the odd tour in (let's imagine the idea of out and back day tours to Cheltenham Races from London/Birmingham with high quality dining etc), that's another potential revenue stream.
The G&WR has got to take stock of what it has before it even remotely considers extending, and maybe they'll decide to stick rather than twist, but I certainly wouldn't rule it out at some point in the future.

 

[Meerkat]

Cheltenham races would defo be a money spinner, if the railway has the capacity, and it would be quite a distance ar 25mph??
Also is it close enough or would you still need shuttle buses?

 

[Cowley]

Cheltenham races would defo be a money spinner, if the railway has the capacity, and it would be quite a distance ar 25mph??
Also is it close enough or would you still need shuttle buses?

The station is actually in the Racecourse car park.

 

[Meerkat]

The station is actually in the Racecourse car park.

Fine for the proles but the dining market won’t be wanting to walk 500m across a car park....

 

[Cowley]

Fine for the proles but the dining market won’t be wanting to walk 500m across a car park....

GWR painted sedan chairs to be provided.

 

[Peter C]

Cheltenham races would defo be a money spinner, if the railway has the capacity, and it would be quite a distance ar 25mph??
Also is it close enough or would you still need shuttle buses?

The railway already runs services between Broadway/Toddington and Cheltenham on Race Days. See last year (I think), they put on an amazing show from what I've heard and did the railways proud.

 

[Paul Hitchcock]

So the Mid Hants, Swanage, Severn Valley, Bo Ness, Isle of Wight, Bluebell, Spa Valley and all the others shouldn't have gone to the effort then?
A mainline connection is about more than just bringing in passengers from the rest of the network. It's also about the easy movement of stock and opportunities to diversify into engineering, repainting, offering storage etc. A lot of these things are opportunities that have opened up post privatisation, and there are excellent (and improving facilities at Toddington.

On top of this is the possibility of bringing the odd tour in (let's imagine the idea of out and back day tours to Cheltenham Races from London/Birmingham with high quality dining etc), that's another potential revenue stream.
The G&WR has got to take stock of what it has before it even remotely considers extending, and maybe they'll decide to stick rather than twist, but I certainly wouldn't rule it out at some point in the future.

Again this is an example of an enthusiast assuming the rest of the population thinks in the same way. It doesn't. If you read what I actually said it was that track connections with Network Rail should be avoided. This is on account of the requirements of N.R. and the expense of meeting them. It might be "Nice" (that weasel word) to have such a connection but does it contribute anything to justify the cost.

As a matter of fact the Isle of Wight does not have a connection but a cross platform interchange. I have no problem with this sort of arrangement but it is of interest that by far the majority of visitors to the IOWSR come by road.

 

[Taunton]

I used to enjoy going to the Bluebell 20-30 years ago, when it was just Sheffield Park to Horsted Keynes. The train service was sufficiently frequent that it didn't matter when you arrived. The service with two trains one way, two the other, worked well for maybe 10 or 12 trips to choose from. The 15 minute journey was quite adequate, bearing in mind you have to come back as well. Time to go round the sheds, look in the bookshop, and the rest of the family didn't get bored with it. If there was a significant event, with stalls at Horsted Keynes, you could spend as long/short as you want and hop the next service back. Short trains and lots of them. Foreign family visitors liked it, we could mix it in with Sheffield Park House gardens, and a pub up in the Ashdown Forest in the evening.

Nowadays it's a big long haul with lengthy but infrequent trains, which no longer suit the historic smaller locomotives, and in fact I've never done the full length, we got off at a passing point, hared over to the opposite train, and rode back. Otherwise get stuck there overlong. It would never occur to us to fag over by train to East Grinstead - we use the train in London daily so that's no novelty. It's just become too tedious, especially with children. Guess what, we don't go there any more.

 

[Cowley]

Again this is an example of an enthusiast assuming the rest of the population thinks in the same way. It doesn't. If you read what I actually said it was that track connections with Network Rail should be avoided. This is on account of the requirements of N.R. and the expense of meeting them. It might be "Nice" (that weasel word) to have such a connection but does it contribute anything to justify the cost.

As a matter of fact the Isle of Wight does not have a connection but a cross platform interchange. I have no problem with this sort of arrangement but it is of interest that by far the majority of visitors to the IOWSR come by road.

Well it's a world of different opinions isn't it Paul?
Taking aside the slightly sneering attitude of your last few posts, it's completely obvious that many of the forward thinking preserved railways in the UK clearly see things very differently from your point of view.

I notice that the Branch Line Society visited the South Devon Railway this evening via their Network Rail connection. Perhaps the SDR signalman should've locked the gate and hidden behind a strategically placed milk churn until they went away?

 

[Cowley]

I used to enjoy going to the Bluebell 20-30 years ago, when it was just Sheffield Park to Horsted Keynes. The train service was sufficiently frequent that it didn't matter when you arrived. The service with two trains one way, two the other, worked well for maybe 10 or 12 trips to choose from. The 15 minute journey was quite adequate, bearing in mind you have to come back as well. Time to go round the sheds, look in the bookshop, and the rest of the family didn't get bored with it. If there was a significant event, with stalls at Horsted Keynes, you could spend as long/short as you want and hop the next service back. Short trains and lots of them. Foreign family visitors liked it, we could mix it in with Sheffield Park House gardens, and a pub up in the Ashdown Forest in the evening.

Nowadays it's a big long haul with lengthy but infrequent trains, which no longer suit the historic smaller locomotives, and in fact I've never done the full length, we got off at a passing point, hared over to the opposite train, and rode back. Otherwise get stuck there overlong. It would never occur to us to fag over by train to East Grinstead - we use the train in London daily so that's no novelty. It's just become too tedious, especially with children. Guess what, we don't go there any more.

Which is a fair point, and is also something that the Gloucester and Warwickshire Railway will have to bear in mind as it's already a long run.
It may well be an extension too far for lots of different reasons.

 

[Meerkat]

If the run gets too long can you have a diesel half and a steam half?

 

[Paul Hitchcock]

I used to enjoy going to the Bluebell 20-30 years ago, when it was just Sheffield Park to Horsted Keynes. The train service was sufficiently frequent that it didn't matter when you arrived. The service with two trains one way, two the other, worked well for maybe 10 or 12 trips to choose from. The 15 minute journey was quite adequate, bearing in mind you have to come back as well. Time to go round the sheds, look in the bookshop, and the rest of the family didn't get bored with it. If there was a significant event, with stalls at Horsted Keynes, you could spend as long/short as you want and hop the next service back. Short trains and lots of them. Foreign family visitors liked it, we could mix it in with Sheffield Park House gardens, and a pub up in the Ashdown Forest in the evening.

Nowadays it's a big long haul with lengthy but infrequent trains, which no longer suit the historic smaller locomotives, and in fact I've never done the full length, we got off at a passing point, hared over to the opposite train, and rode back. Otherwise get stuck there overlong. It would never occur to us to fag over by train to East Grinstead - we use the train in London daily so that's no novelty. It's just become too tedious, especially with children. Guess what, we don't go there any more.

Sums up everything.

Well it's a world of different opinions isn't it Paul?
Taking aside the slightly sneering attitude of your last few posts, it's completely obvious that many of the forward thinking preserved railways in the UK clearly see things very differently from your point of view.

I notice that the Branch Line Society visited the South Devon Railway this evening via their Network Rail connection. Perhaps the SDR signalman should've locked the gate and hidden behind a strategically placed milk churn until they went away?

See post by "Taunton" above. Shows exactly what I mean.

 

[Brush 4]

All the preserved lines have a romantic aura and were opened by those who dreamt that it could be done and are still doing it. Romantic, feasible and practical all apply to these lines. These terms are not mutually exclusive. Honeybourne is all 3 of those things. If the separate scheme to reopen to Stratford as part of the network succeeds, then Honeybourne will make even more sense than it already does. Self evident really.

 

[Paul Hitchcock]

All the preserved lines have a romantic aura and were opened by those who dreamt that it could be done and are still doing it. Romantic, feasible and practical all apply to these lines. These terms are not mutually exclusive. Honeybourne is all 3 of those things. If the separate scheme to reopen to Stratford as part of the network succeeds, then Honeybourne will make even more sense than it already does. Self evident really.

"Sense"? Er no! Britain's longest tourist railway is in the middle of significant financial difficulties right now. You need to look no further than Post 80 above to see the longer runs can be too much even for enthusiasts and their children/grandchildren.

 

[Shenandoah]

Probably one of the most successful tourist lines in the country is the Dartmouth line. It is just seven miles but has, arguably, the best scenery (sea and river) of any line. It principal function -apart from a ride in a steam train - is to get people from the Torbay area to Dartmouth and the boats trips on the river. Local also use the line in the summer, despite their being a Stagecoach bus service. It is probably what the GWR, had it survived nationalisation in 1948, would now look like. Tourist/heritage lines operate in the present time and whilst structures can adequately reflect the past present day operations demand something different. .
The principal problem, it seems to me, is for many tourist/heritage managements lines being encouraged - sometimes pressurized - into extensions, which are basically not affordable (pie in the sky) and seen with a high degree of nostalgia rather than business acumen.

 

[Brush 4]

Always looking for the negative angle. Doing the whole journey isn't compulsory. Arriving at Broadway from a change of train at Honeybourne is likely to be an attractive prospect for many north of the GSWR, avoiding car parking hassles in Broadway. Those from the south or west will do as they do now. From Stratford and Brum direct even more of an attractive prospect. This could cause a conflict though with Tyseley, unless they merged and worked together, sharing locos stock, costs and revenue. It doesn't have to be a problem, depends on their attitude really. Conflict or co-operation. There would be some overlap with their operations.

 

[Paul Hitchcock]

Probably one of the most successful tourist lines in the country is the Dartmouth line. It is just seven miles but has, arguably, the best scenery (sea and river) of any line. It principal function -apart from a ride in a steam train - is to get people from the Torbay area to Dartmouth and the boats trips on the river. Local also use the line in the summer, despite their being a Stagecoach bus service. It is probably what the GWR, had it survived nationalisation in 1948, would now look like. Tourist/heritage lines operate in the present time and whilst structures can adequately reflect the past present day operations demand something different. .
The principal problem, it seems to me, is for many tourist/heritage managements lines being encouraged - sometimes pressurized - into extensions, which are basically not affordable (pie in the sky) and seen with a high degree of nostalgia rather than business acumen.

Absolutely so

Always looking for the negative angle. Doing the whole journey isn't compulsory. Arriving at Broadway from a change of train at Honeybourne is likely to be an attractive prospect for many north of the GSWR, avoiding car parking hassles in Broadway. Those from the south or west will do as they do now. From Stratford and Brum direct even more of an attractive prospect. This could cause a conflict though with Tyseley, unless they merged and worked together, sharing locos stock, costs and revenue. It doesn't have to be a problem, depends on their attitude really. Conflict or co-operation. There would be some overlap with their operations.

See Post 87

 

[Shenandoah]

Birmingham to Stratford upon Avon is part of the National network and a TC operates on it. Tyseley (Vintage Trains) is now a TOC.
Those lines, with length and serving large communities, which have good connections to the national network, I suggest, could fall victim to rail nationalization under a change of government. It is of interest to note the spending by the government and NR on projects close or on heritage lines. There are some lines where the track bed is not owned by the heritage line but the local authority. Leases can be terminated.
Supporters of the line mentioned in a previous post, as being in serious financial difficulties, will make a point of their long lease ensuring the future of the line, however that line has just terminated a 25 year agreement with a loco owning group. Nothing in this world is immutable.