List of preservation railway's expansion plans in future

[Peter C]

Castle hauled specials for race days? Really?

Er, no.
Visiting engines for enthusiasts; own stock for race days and other day-to-day running days.

 

[reddragon]

Yes! These trains were packed. May I propose the idea that if they extended south, to Cheltenham, the connection could be easier; the passengers almost certainly had to change for a bus.

The cost of this is very high, with all those bridges to repair, vandalism, new bridges, planning, the cycle way etc. A new chord at CRC (Cheltenham Racecourse) works out cheaper!

 

[swt class 450]

Very surprised that some people don't think a connection with a National Rail station will increase visitors. I think it would increase visitors a lot.

If someone has a car then yes it will probably not make a difference. They will probably still travel by car to get there. However lots of people don't have cars and need to use public transport. These people will always choose somewhere because it is easy to get to by public transport. The train is always a much easier method than the bus.

To get to many of these heritage railways your only option is the bus. Most of these bus services are very infrequent and normally finish very early in the evening and have a very poor or no weekend services. This will simply put people off visiting as it means it is more hassle to get to.

Where as if people know that they can get there by taking a National Rail service then they are far more likely to visit. The train is far simpler and normally has a much more frequent service and runs much later than bus services do. So i would say that having a connection with National Rail services would definitely increase visitors. Not everyone has a car so these people will find this much more convenient and be more convinced to visit.

 

[Peter C]

The cost of this is very high, with all those bridges to repair, vandalism, new bridges, planning, the cycle way etc. A new chord at CRC works out cheaper!

I can see that any sort of extension would be expensive and mindless vandals would try and wreck the hard work of the volunteers (this is something I feel very strongly about), and even an extension to Cheltenham would be excellent.
In an ideal world, I would love for connections at both ends; I live along the Cotswold Line, and a connection at Honeybourne and Cheltenham would open up more possibilities for days out, etc.

On the previously mentioned subject of the railways running commuter services, may I suggest that it's not up to the railway to tell people what they can and can't do in terms of riding trains? If I lived in Broadway, close to the station, and worked at Winchcombe, on one of the sort-of industrial estates next to the line, I would use the GWSR. What can you do about it? Nothing.

Very surprised that some people don't think a connection with a National Rail station will increase visitors. I think it would increase visitors a lot.

If someone has a car then yes it will probably not make a difference. They will probably still travel by car to get there. However lots of people don't have cars and need to use public transport. These people will always choose somewhere because it is easy to get to by public transport. The train is always a much easier method than the bus.

To get to many of these heritage railways your only option is the bus. Most of these bus services are very infrequent and normally finish very early in the evening and have a very poor or no weekend services. This will simply put people off visiting as it means it is more hassle to get to.

Where as if people know that they can get there by taking a National Rail service then they are far more likely to visit. The train is far simpler and normally has a much more frequent service and runs much later than bus services do. So i would say that having a connection with National Rail services would definitely increase visitors. Not everyone has a car so these people will find this much more convenient and be more convinced to visit.

If you live in that area of the Cotswolds, you would know how poor the bus services are! Trying to get around on public transport that isn't the train in the area surrounding Toddington is like trying to knit fog; impossible! I think what some people on here have to remember, as you have said, is that not everyone owns a car, and, in my views, not everyone has the same thoughts.

 

[reddragon]

If you live in that area of the Cotswolds, you would know how poor the bus services are! Trying to get around on public transport that isn't the train in the area surrounding Toddington is like trying to knit fog; impossible! I think what some people on here have to remember, as you have said, is that not everyone owns a car, and, in my views, not everyone has the same thoughts.

There is a very frequent bus service every day & evenings from Cheltenham Station to the Racecourse!

 

[Paul Hitchcock]

Exactly what I think! If these railways stay isolated, it limits the possibilities for what they can do. Also, it would bring more people in to the railway. I can only imagine as to how many people don't currently go to the GWSR purely because it's not the easiest place to get to. I'm sure that a mainline link, even if it is just a cross-platform interchange (Paul Hitchcock), would bring in plenty of people to the railway.


I think you'll find that the GWSR ran multiple trains, of both DMU and steam varieties, specifically for the race days. Enough people used those services that they managed to make a fair bit of money off of it, I bet. If an "important" engine was to visit, I'm sure that it would be used for more high profile railway enthusiast events, such as galas.


I think you'll find that this is just your opinion and experience. Not everyone's experiences are like this; I visited the SVR last year, by train, and the day worked perfectly fine! Yes, many still choose to drive, but the number of people who will use the railway in years to come will eventually pay for the extension.

Thank you! If those reading this remember back to when the GWSR were building their extension to Broadway, you'll know that they built it slowly, in stages. Building an extension to Honeybourne could be done in very much the same way; it will make sure that the extension could be done.
On the subject of the Race Course trains, I agree again!
Think about it; each care driven to the racecourse takes up space. That's obvious. And I'd bet that most of these four-seater cars are only carrying two people. The train, which moves an awful lot more people per journey, can keep transporting people throughout the whole day! A car moves people twice; to the racecourse, and from the racecourse. The train is so much more efficient.

Yes! These trains were packed. May I propose the idea that if they extended south, to Cheltenham, the connection could be easier; the passengers almost certainly had to change for a bus.

Cor! Paragraph after paragraph of "Wouldn't it be nice" (or W.I.B.N. for short). Incidentally just how much first hand experience do you have of operating tourist lines?

 

[43096]

Cor! Paragraph after paragraph of "Wouldn't it be nice" (or W.I.B.N. for short). Incidentally just how much first hand experience do you have of operating tourist lines?

I'd call it "Wouldn't It Be a Bloody Lovely Experience". Or W.I.B.B.L.E. for short.

 

[Peter C]

Cor! Paragraph after paragraph of "Wouldn't it be nice" (or W.I.B.N. for short). Incidentally just how much first hand experience do you have of operating tourist lines?

I don't have any experience of running a heritage line, but I have been to the GWSR countless times and I know how it works. Do you have any experience of running a heritage line? Have you been to the GWSR, recently?

Cor! Paragraph after paragraph of "Wouldn't it be nice" (or W.I.B.N. for short). Incidentally just how much first hand experience do you have of operating tourist lines?

Also, may I suggest that you are turning to just moaning and being mean because you know that there are more people who think like me and not the same as you? That is a very childish and stupid thing to do, in my opinion.

I'd call it "Wouldn't It Be a Bloody Lovely Experience". Or W.I.B.B.L.E. for short.

May I suggest that you haven't actually given anything to this thread, just moaned about how our ideas aren't going to happen and that we are silly for using some imagination?

 

[Paul Hitchcock]

I don't have any experience of running a heritage line, but I have been to the GWSR countless times and I know how it works. Do you have any experience of running a heritage line? Have you been to the GWSR, recently?

At least that is an honest reply but, alas, is exactly what was to be expected. I have been to the GWSR on several occasions but not since it reached Broadway. I have been a volunteer on preserved railways all my adult life.

Also, may I suggest that you are turning to just moaning and being mean because you know that there are more people who think like me and not the same as you? That is a very childish and stupid thing to do, in my opinion.

That sounds a bit of a desperate argument to take. Being realistic may seem "mean" to you but is your problem not mine.

 

[4141]

My humble opinion, for what it's worth, is that the GWSR will not extend further towards Cheltenham than they are now - they have a station which has plenty of parking space, is next to an A road, and has very regular bus services nearby, and there is nowhere nearer to the centre of town which could come close to that. An extension and connection to Honeybourne is a lovely idea, and maybe it will happen one day, but the cost will never be recouped by any extra passenger numbers. Better to enjoy the fruits of their hard work getting to Broadway, for which I have the utmost admiration, and concentrate on that for the present.

 

[43096]

May I suggest that you haven't actually given anything to this thread, just moaned about how our ideas aren't going to happen and that we are silly for using some imagination?

I suggest you go back and read this thread again. Love the idea that pointing out challenges and flaws in ideas are "moaning"; what do you want, a sycophantic "yes man" response polishing your ego?

If you don't want a critique of your ideas, then don't publish them here. It's a forum for debate.

 

[Peter C]

I suggest you go back and read this thread again. Love the idea that pointing out challenges and flaws in ideas are "moaning"; what do you want, a sycophantic "yes man" response polishing your ego?

If you don't want a critique of your ideas, then don't publish them here. It's a forum for debate.

I'm more than ready for someone to give me some constructive criticism for my work and what I do, don't get me wrong. I don't go around polishing my non-existent ego. I just don't like it when I suggest something and the main responses that I get are people saying that my ideas are stupid because they wouldn't work*.
I'd happily listen to your ideas; I'm just not prepared to listen to someone constantly saying the same point** and not giving any reasons.

*I know that these aren't the words used, but that's what I'm getting.
**I know that different points have been made, but most of them have been that it wouldn't work.

My humble opinion, for what it's worth, is that the GWSR will not extend further towards Cheltenham than they are now - they have a station which has plenty of parking space, is next to an A road, and has very regular bus services nearby, and there is nowhere nearer to the centre of town which could come close to that. An extension and connection to Honeybourne is a lovely idea, and maybe it will happen one day, but the cost will never be recouped by any extra passenger numbers. Better to enjoy the fruits of their hard work getting to Broadway, for which I have the utmost admiration, and concentrate on that for the present.

I agree with you in the fact that it would be lovely to see GWSR trains reach Honeybourne again. I also think that yes, we should concentrate on Broadway. I was proposing the fact that an extension to Honeybourne was an idea, but that seems to have gone to pot!

 

[Shenandoah]

My humble opinion, for what it's worth, is that the GWSR will not extend further towards Cheltenham than they are now - they have a station which has plenty of parking space, is next to an A road, and has very regular bus services nearby, and there is nowhere nearer to the centre of town which could come close to that. An extension and connection to Honeybourne is a lovely idea, and maybe it will happen one day, but the cost will never be recouped by any extra passenger numbers. Better to enjoy the fruits of their hard work getting to Broadway, for which I have the utmost admiration, and concentrate on that for the present.

This really sums up the realities in this debate.
The preservation movement is full of well meaning, but wholly unaffordable and improbable, ideas. All very fine suggesting what others should be doing and paying for, but those who have mileage in the preservation movement have seen and read it all before - and not just relating to the G&WSR.

 

[Peter C]

This really sums up the realities in this debate.
The preservation movement is full of well meaning, but wholly unaffordable and improbable, ideas. All very fine suggesting what others should be doing and paying for, but those who have mileage in the preservation movement have seen and read it all before - and not just relating to the G&WSR.

I'd be more than willing to help out in whatever way I could to get something done about an extension. I'm looking to volunteer at the GWSR at some point in the future. I feel as though it's the last I can do after I've been going for so many years.
I wouldn't consider myself to be one of "those people" who sit and tell others what they should do without thinking, as I like to know what I'm on about before I start arguing a point.

At least that is an honest reply but, alas, is exactly what was to be expected. I have been to the GWSR on several occasions but not since it reached Broadway. I have been a volunteer on preserved railways all my adult life.

I'd say that you should go to Broadway and see how much the line has moved on, especially if you have been up to Laverton in the past.

 

[Paul Hitchcock]

I wouldn't consider myself to be one of "those people" who sit and tell others what they should do without thinking.

Sadly, that appears just to be the case. Active involvement is the cure.

 

[4141]

I'd be more than willing to help out in whatever way I could to get something done about an extension. I'm looking to volunteer at the GWSR at some point in the future. I feel as though it's the last I can do after I've been going for so many years.

Scooping the pot on the Euromillions lottery would be a big help - failing that, patience is a virtue...

 

[Peter C]

Scooping the pot on the Euromillions lottery would be a big help - failing that, patience is a virtue...

Wouldn't we all love to win the lottery....?

 

[Brush 4]

Don't worry about contrary opinions, because that's all they are in the end, mostly from the IOW. Saying something won't work is easy, because there is no way of disproving it. Offering constructive scenarios based on reality elsewhere is easy to dismiss airily. A lack of initiative helps the negative attitude. Best of all is that all existing operations that have gone down the same route are completely disregarded as an inconvenience.

Back to GWSR, if there was a main line connection, race specials may attract Northern Belle and VSOE, especially for the 4 day Gold Cup meeting. There seem to be 8 racing fixtures annually plus 6 non racing events. The notion that none of these would be revenue opportunities is unlikely.

I believe they own the route to Pittville stadium. A small station and loop there could serve Cheltenham better than the racecourse. The cycle route starts there so, the cycling leisure market could be captured out to the Cotswolds.
If the separate non heritage campaign to reopen Honeybourne to Stratford succeeds, this will put far more commercial pressure on the Broadway - Honeybourne revival, as part of the whole route from Birmingham. http://suawoox.com/index.html They are having their own fight with negativity from yes, you guessed it - the Government.

 

[Peter C]

Sadly, that appears just to be the case. Active involvement is the cure.

With the GWSR being my nearest railway, volunteering there isn't off the cards.
I'm definitely not the sort of person that sits around telling others what to do without putting in the effort. It's just here I've given my views and argued them for much longer than I normally would as the debate has continued for longer than I expected.

 

[4141]

I believe they own the route to Pittville stadium. A small station and loop there could serve Cheltenham better than the racecourse. The cycle route starts there so, the cycling leisure market could be captured out to the Cotswolds.

As a resident of Cheltenham, I have to say that a station of any size near the stadium would in no way be any better than the Racecourse. It's almost surrounded by housing these days, road access is far worse from any direction, the bus service is hourly IIRC, as opposed to every ten minutes in daytime at Racecourse...and all that for a gain of only a few hundred yards? Sorry, it's a no from me...

 

[Peter C]

Don't worry about contrary opinions, because that's all they are in the end, mostly from the IOW. Saying something won't work is easy, because there is no way of disproving it. Offering constructive scenarios based on reality elsewhere is easy to dismiss airily. A lack of initiative helps the negative attitude. Best of all is that all existing operations that have gone down the same route are completely disregarded as an inconvenience.

Back to GWSR, if there was a main line connection, race specials may attract Northern Belle and VSOE, especially for the 4 day Gold Cup meeting. There seem to be 8 racing fixtures annually plus 6 non racing events. The notion that none of these would be revenue opportunities is unlikely.

I believe they own the route to Pittville stadium. A small station and loop there could serve Cheltenham better than the racecourse. The cycle route starts there so, the cycling leisure market could be captured out to the Cotswolds.
If the separate non heritage campaign to reopen Honeybourne to Stratford succeeds, this will put far more commercial pressure on the Broadway - Honeybourne revival, as part of the whole route from Birmingham. http://suawoox.com/index.html They are having their own fight with negativity from yes, you guessed it - the Government.

Excuse me for being stupid, but when you say IOW, do you mean Isle of Wight?
Yes, I agree that a connection at Honeybourne would make a fair bit of money. I bet that there were people saying the same things now back when Broadway was being thought about!
If the GWSR could extend even slightly further south, which according to you they could, it would bring in a lot more money for the line as a whole.
In terms of Honeybourne - Stratford, I think, from looking at the diagrams, it would be excellent. At the moment, if I wanted to travel from my nearest station, Kingham, Stratford by train, I'd have to go up to Birmingham and back down! Living on the Cotswold Line and using it very regularly has told me one thing; this area of the world needs more rail connections. Even the redoubling of the line between Charlbury and Oxford would be amazing!*

*(Is there another thread for me to waffle on about this on? If so, please tell me - I've a lot to say!)

Excuse me for being stupid, but when you say IOW, do you mean Isle of Wight?
Yes, I agree that a connection at Honeybourne would make a fair bit of money. I bet that there were people saying the same things now back when Broadway was being thought about!
If the GWSR could extend even slightly further south, which according to you they could, it would bring in a lot more money for the line as a whole.
In terms of Honeybourne - Stratford, I think, from looking at the diagrams, it would be excellent. At the moment, if I wanted to travel from my nearest station, Kingham, Stratford by train, I'd have to go up to Birmingham and back down! Living on the Cotswold Line and using it very regularly has told me one thing; this area of the world needs more rail connections. Even the redoubling of the line between Charlbury and Oxford would be amazing!*

*(Is there another thread for me to waffle on about this on? If so, please tell me - I've a lot to say!)

EDIT: When you say Northen Belle, do you mean this:

Spoiler

or something else? Again, excuse me for not knowing an awful lot!

 

[Brush 4]

No, that's the Brighton Belle. Yes, Isle of Wight from where most of the negativity emanates. Northern Belle is a luxury excursion train, like the VSOE. Do a search. The link I included, is for a group pushing for full redoubling of the Cotswold line, before reopening Honeybourne - Stratford.

 

[Peter C]

No, that's the Brighton Belle. Yes, Isle of Wight from where most of the negativity emanates. Northern Belle is a luxury excursion train, like the VSOE. Do a search. The link I included, is for a group pushing for full redoubling of the Cotswold line, before reopening Honeybourne - Stratford.

Ha! Isle of Wight - negativity capital of the country!
I'd love to see that group finally get the last two bits of the Cotswold Line redoubled. Much of the journey between Oxford and Kingham is waiting for a train to pass!

 

[4141]

If the GWSR could extend even slightly further south, which according to you they could, it would bring in a lot more money for the line as a whole.

I almost envy your bright eyed optimism, and believe me I don't want to be a grouch, I remember coming out of swimming lessons and seeing an ex-GWR 28xx on iron ore hoppers crossing Millbrook Street bridge in front of me, remember seeing 5019 Treago Castle on The Cornishman etc. etc...(the whole area has been redeveloped now)...but back to reality, exactly how would a short extension south bring in a lot more money, considering my post upthread about accessibility?

 

[Brush 4]

Look at satellite. Connects to cycle/footpath on the trackbed and is actually in Cheltenham.

 

[Paul Hitchcock]

With the GWSR being my nearest railway, volunteering there isn't off the cards.
I'm definitely not the sort of person that sits around telling others what to do without putting in the effort..

Well off you go then and prove this is so.

 

[Shenandoah]

Peter C, if you go to any of the stations on the G&SWR and volunteer your help you should receive a good welcome. I am sure that there will be some activity you can become involved with, after all there are many facets to railway operations.
Now as far as the southern terminus if the G&WSR is concerned I am sure they accept that Cheltenham Racecourse is as far as they should go, There is little beyond, just their linear scrapyard.
Brush 4 mentions the satellite view. It does show the track bed south - no track of course - but is is a linear park for walkers and cyclists it seems. South of the area of the playing field and stadium there is little chance or re-instatement south. I am pretty certain that the residents of Cheltenham and the surrounding area would mount a major protest if it was proposed that the linear park was to become a railway again.
The G&WSR owns the track bed from Broadway to Cheltenham Racecourse however a southerly extension - unlikely but let us say, if at all possible - would probably require purchase of the tack bed and given the subsequent maintenance of over bridges and large number of embankment walls would be a formidable sum.

 

[Cowley]

Peter C, if you go to any of the stations on the G&SWR and volunteer your help you should receive a good welcome. I am sure that there will be some activity you can become involved with, after all there are many facets to railway operations.
Now as far as the southern terminus if the G&WSR is concerned I am sure they accept that Cheltenham Racecourse is as far as they should go, There is little beyond, just their linear scrapyard.
Brush 4 mentions the satellite view. It does show the track bed south - no track of course - but is is a linear park for walkers and cyclists it seems. South of the area of the playing field and stadium there is little chance or re-instatement south. I am pretty certain that the residents of Cheltenham and the surrounding area would mount a major protest if it was proposed that the linear park was to become a railway again.
The G&WSR owns the track bed from Broadway to Cheltenham Racecourse however a southerly extension - unlikely but let us say, if at all possible - would probably require purchase of the tack bed and given the subsequent maintenance of over bridges and large number of embankment walls would be a formidable sum.

Constructive, succinct and spot on.

 

[Brush 4]

Fair enough. I had read somewhere a couple of years ago that they owned the route down to the Pittville Athletic Track. The cycle path ends at that point which seems to suggest different ownership onwards. In that case, extend the cycle path out to the tunnel mouth then up between the farm and tunnel to what seem to be grass car parks for the racecourse. Seems pointless leaving it semi derelict, when it could be a useful car free link to the railway and the racecourse.

 

[Richard Scott]

Fair enough. I had read somewhere a couple of years ago that they owned the route down to the Pittville Athletic Track. The cycle path ends at that point which seems to suggest different ownership onwards. In that case, extend the cycle path out to the tunnel mouth then up between the farm and tunnel to what seem to be grass car parks for the racecourse. Seems pointless leaving it semi derelict, when it could be a useful car free link to the railway and the racecourse.

The GWSR do own to the Pittville boundary. The tunnel at Hunting Butts is blocked up to stop unwanted visitors trespassing into Race Course station, hence cycle path is unlikely to ever go that far.