Literal translations of placenames

[krus_aragon]

Diverging from this thread, discussing the name of Llwynypia station. (I'm trying to be good and not drag the thread off-topic.)

What's the matter with it ? It is a Welsh place name and there are hundreds more of them. I think the English meaning would sound more strange, "The Grove of The Magpie".

That's a thought-game I've sometimes played: coming up with literal English equivalents of Welsh place names that have no translation. They can give a completely different impression of a place. Here's a few that I've formed:

Well's Dale: Pantyffynnon
Fairfields: Maesteg
Little St Mary's : Llanfairfechan
White Isle: Ynyswen

I'd be interested in hearing non-Welsh-speakers' impressions of these names (and also those of our bilingual members).

 

[trainophile]

Great idea for a thread. Can we include Scottish ones?

What's the literal translation for that extremely long Welsh one, Llanfairpwl.......gogogoch?

 

[507021]

Great idea for a thread. Can we include Scottish ones?

What's the literal translation for that extremely long Welsh one, Llanfairpwl.......gogogoch?

"Saint Mary's Church in the hollow of the white hazel near a rapid whirlpool and the Church of St. Tysilio of the red cave."

 

[trainophile]

Haha, you can't miss it then!

 

[transmanche]

Great idea for a thread. Can we include Scottish ones?

How about we stretch it to Irish Gaelic ones?

My favourite is Dublin (or Dubh Linn): Blackpool.

 

[transmanche]

"Saint Mary's Church in the hollow of the white hazel near a rapid whirlpool and the Church of St. Tysilio of the red cave."

Although Llan is often translated as 'church' in this context, it's probably more accurate to say it's akin to 'parish' and effectively just means the place is/was a small town or village.

(In Welsh, a church is Eglwys.)

 

[Parallel]

Does anyone know if there is a literal translation for Pontarddulais and Penrhyndeudraeth?

I know that Minffordd translates to ‘Road side’

 

[Adlington]

Wikipedia says : A literal English translation of the name Pontarddulais is "Bridge over the Dulais", with Dulais meaning "black stream", probably due to its course through coal measures.

 

[transmanche]

Does anyone know if there is a literal translation for Pontarddulais and Penrhyndeudraeth?

Pontarddulais: Pont is a bridge, so Pontarddulais is 'Bridge on the (River) Dulais' (or Dulaisbridge).

Penrhyndeudraeth: Pen usually refers to the top, head or end; e,g, the top of a hill and Penrhyn means a headland or peninsula. Dreath is a mutation of treath, which is a beach. So my best guess is 'Headland with two beaches' (or 'Two-beach headland').

 

[507021]

Although Llan is often translated as 'church' in this context, it's probably more accurate to say it's akin to 'parish' and effectively just means the place is/was a small town or village.

(In Welsh, a church is Eglwys.)

Ah yes, I remember now.

I studied Welsh in Year 7, but that was a long time ago!

 

[Welshman]

post deleted

 

[hexagon789]

How about we stretch it to Irish Gaelic ones?

My favourite is Dublin (or Dubh Linn): Blackpool.

Technically I believe the more commonly used name for Dublin in Irish is Baile Atha Cliath - Town of the hurdle ford.

 

[transmanche]

Technically I believe the more commonly used name for Dublin in Irish is Baile Atha Cliath - Town of the hurdle ford.

Yes, the modern Irish name for the city of Dublin is Baile Átha Cliath, but Dubh Linn and Baile Átha Cliath originally referred to separate settlements. Dubh Linn was located where the River Poddle meets the River Liffey, roughly around the back of Dublin Castle. Baile Átha Cliath was a fording point located roughly where Father Matthew Bridge is today.

But regardless of that, the modern English name Dublin is a corruption of Dubh Linn, which means Blackpool.

 

[hexagon789]

But regardless of that, the modern English name Dublin is a corruption of Dubh Linn, which means Blackpool.

I believe that's because Dubh Linn was the area where the British stayed when Britain first ruled over Ireland, while the Irish themselves inhabited Baile Atha Cliath?

 

[transmanche]

I believe that's because Dubh Linn was the area where the British stayed when Britain first ruled over Ireland, while the Irish themselves inhabited Baile Atha Cliath?

Possibly. Although, there wasn't a political entity called Britain then - and the 'British' were more accurately the Anglo-Normans.

Getting closer back to the topic, the modern Welsh name for Dublin is Dulyn, which means Black Lake...

 

[hexagon789]

Possibly. Although, there wasn't a political entity called Britain then - and the 'British' were more accurately the Anglo-Norma

Forgive me, I may be part Irish but my irish history is a bit lacking in some areas!

 

[Howardh]

The literal translation for Bolton couldn't be shown on a family messageboard, although I can use the latter of the two words, Hole.

 

[eastwestdivide]

While we're at it, don't leave out the derivations of English place names from various languages...
http://kepn.nottingham.ac.uk/ is a searchable academic place to start, from which:
Crewe = weir (from Primitive Welsh)
Bristol = bridge place (Old English)
Derby = deer farm/settlement (Old Norse)
Settle = dwelling (Old English)

 

[Josie]

I'm fond of the River Dore, whose name is said to come from Welsh dŵr ('water') but later be misinterpreted by the Normans to d'or ('of gold'). The part of Herefordshire it flows through is now called the Golden Valley.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Porthcawl - "gate soup"

 

[gg1]

If we expand the rules to translations from languages other than Welsh, Bredon Hill in Worcestershire translates as Hill Hill Hill and the River Avon is River River.

There are also a few other location/geographical features in Britain who's names are derived from the same word in more than one language.

 

[transmanche]

Porthcawl - "gate soup"

That sounds like an Uxbridge English Dictionary definition!

More likely is Harbour of the Gauls. (Porth, in the sense of a gateway, can also mean a harbour. Cawl is probably a corruption of Gaul rather than a reference to a delicious soup or broth.)

 

[61653 HTAFC]

That sounds like an Uxbridge English Dictionary definition!

More likely is Harbour of the Gauls. (Porth, in the sense of a gateway, can also mean a harbour. Cawl is probably a corruption of Gaul rather than a reference to a delicious soup or broth.)

It was a tongue-in-cheek one, should've used a smiley!

 

[pdeaves]

Swindon is 'pig hill' (make of that what you want). Its suburb Penhill is 'hill hill'.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Swindon is 'pig hill' (make of that what you want). Its suburb Penhill is 'hill hill'.

Pendle Hill in Lancashire is "hill hill hill".

 

[etr221]

There is a story that somewhere on a map of one the farther reaches of the Empire there was a place whose name translated into English was "I don't know" - result of the the surveying team having asked a native less likely than he looked what it was called...

 

[Ianno87]

The literal translation for Bolton couldn't be shown on a family messageboard, although I can use the latter of the two words, Hole.

Wikipedia says it comes from the Olde English Bothl-tun or 'settlement with a dwelling'

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

That sounds like an Uxbridge English Dictionary definition!

More likely is Harbour of the Gauls. (Porth, in the sense of a gateway, can also mean a harbour. Cawl is probably a corruption of Gaul rather than a reference to a delicious soup or broth.)

I wouldn't be so sure... Welsh place names can be strange indeed... near me there is a village called Nant-y-Caws which literally translates as "the Cheese Brook" and in Carmarthen {or to give it it's Welsh name Caerfyrddin - Merlin's Fort} the park & ride is at Nant-y-Ci or Dog Brook.

 

[transmanche]

[QUOTE="Teflon Lettuce, post: 3534692, member: 21764]I wouldn't be so sure... Welsh place names can be strange indeed... near me there is a village called Nant-y-Caws which literally translates as "the Cheese Brook"[/QUOTE]Probably not the same one, but I've been to the one near Oswestry. I discussed its meaning, at length, with my Mum. She wonders if it was a place where cheese was left in the stream to cool.

Anyhoo, the Ordnance Survey seems to think that the cawl in Porthcawl comes from sea kale.

 

[Merseysider]

Touching on Germanic place names for a moment, Todmorden in West Yorks literally translates from German as Deathmurder.

The western German town of Geilenkirchen translates as Horny Churches.

And the northern German town of Fickmühlen translates as f*ckmills