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Littlehaven to London

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johnnycache

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I'd be grateful if forum members could give their opinion on this.

Anytime day single Littlehaven to London Terminals route Any Permitted

Is this ticket valid for travel via Horsham ?
(The journey would be Littlehaven-Horsham and then Horsham-Victoria via Three Bridges)

Is this ticket valid for break of journey at Horsham ?
(same itinerary but with a several hours stay in Horsham)

Thank you
 
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maniacmartin

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I can't see how it would be valid via Horsham and Three Bridges in the same journey as that would involve doubling back through Littlehaven, unless an easement permit it.

However I think it would be valid via Horsham if travelling Littlehaven-Horsham-Dorking-Epsom, then via Wimbledon (shortest route) or Sutton (within 3 miles of shortest route).

As to the break of journey, none of the Littlehaven to London Terminals or Littlehaven to London Victoria standard class tickets appear to have a restriction code that forbids it, according to BRFares.com
 

Paul Kelly

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I can't see how it would be valid via Horsham and Three Bridges in the same journey as that would involve doubling back through Littlehaven, unless an easement permit it.
Bear in mind though that doubling back is allowed when using the 3 mile rule.

Using the mileages that ATOC supply to booking engines, the shortest route from Littlehaven to London Terminals appears to be 35 miles 30 chains to Vauxhall, via Horsham, Dorking, Epsom and Wimbledon. The other route via Three Bridges, East Croydon and Streatham Common is 1 mile 25 chains longer, at 36 miles 55 chains. Of course once you get to Vauxhall it is permitted to continue to Victoria as there are no other stations in between that aren't London Terminals (this bit might be wrong; see below).

If we start a journey along the second route with a double back to Horsham, that adds twice the distance from Littlehaven to Horsham (i.e. 2x 1 mile 6 chains) to the total mileage, which brings the total mileage Littlehaven - Horsham - Littlehaven - Three Bridges - East Croydon - Streatham Common - Vauxhall to 38 miles 67 chains.

That is 3 miles 37 chains longer than the shortest route! ATOC specify that booking engines should apply a margin of error to the three mile rule. If the margin of error was half a mile (40 chains), then this route would be allowed. So it's quite open to interpretation...

I haven't checked with mileages from the GB Rail Timetable. That would be an interesting comparison obviously.

Edit: I am confused about where Vauxhall is. Not sure if you can get from Vauxhall to Victoria or not. The same reasoning applies though if you choose Victoria instead of Vauxhall as the closest London terminal; in fact the difference in distance is then less than a quarter of a mile over 3 miles.

Edit again: I don't think the fact that we are using Vauxhall as the closest terminal is of much consequence. I think it would be a bit unenforceable to say to a passenger who had reached Clapham Junction that they now could only go to Vauxhall rather than Victoria, just because they had that double back to Horsham at the start of their journey. It is certainly very complicated though and hurts my head thinking about it. Maybe one for John@Home.
 
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maniacmartin

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Bear in mind though that doubling back is allowed when using the 3 mile rule.

Are you sure. The shortest route is mentioned in the NRCoC, but as far as I can see, the 3 mile rule is only mentioned in The National Routeing Guide in Detail (ATOC/RSP). This was discussed in this thread. (Section E).

THE NATIONAL ROUTEING GUIDE IN DETAIL said:
Journeys on direct trains or taking the route of shortest distance or a distance longer by no more than 3 miles are always following a permitted route.
It's not clear to me if this is able to override the rule against doubling back in the Routeing Guide. If so, surely one can travel to an extra 1.5 miles to a station on the end/start of any journey that is the shortest route.

I'd like to hear other people's opinions on this one.


The mileages in the NRT are rounded to the nearest quarter, whereas the data that the booking engines use is in a different format (decimal possibly). As such, rounding errors in both data sets may mean that a route allowed in the PDF copy of the NRT would not be valid when calculated with the booking engine's data. As such, they allow slightly more (believed to be 5 miles). But it is possible, albeit rare, that a booking engine could disallow a route that calculation with the NRT could allow.

Unless you can get a booking engine to produce an itinerary for a given ticket, then I don't think you can use it's workings as an argument for route validity however.
 
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Paul Kelly

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It's not clear to me if this is able to override the rule against doubling back in the Routeing Guide. If so, surely one can travel to an extra 1.5 miles to a station on the end/start of any journey that is the shortest route.

Correct. Well, that's my interpretation anyway. A practical example that came up earlier this year was Wandsworth Common to Croydon doubling back via Clapham Junction; see this thread.

Unless you can get a booking engine to produce an itinerary for a given ticket, then I don't think you can use it's workings as an argument for route validity however.

True. I was kind of sort of prodding johnnycache for some hints as to the origin of his query by talking about it from that point of view!
 

MKD

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An idea if £saving is the plan as opposed to technical validity issues:

Looks as if its £17.xx for the single ticket from Littlehaven and most legs plan out as using Southern trains...

If you're travelling after 10am (or at weekend/bank-holiday) then getting a Southern All-Network Downlander online at £12.50 would give you a day's use of Southern trains across their entire network.

That would at the very least get you from Horsham (assuming having spent c2hrs there it'd be 10am working weekday anyway).

Just have to buy one clear working day ahead ie by midnight today 13/12 for 15/12 use. It's a print-at-home ticket.
https://www.southernrailwaytickets.com/main.php?page_id=281
 

RJ

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The journey planner seems to allow it (FGW webtis)

Yes but I'd take that with a pinch of salt as it also allows a route of over 300 miles for a 3 mile journey. TOCs seem to have varying policies on accepting tickets for questionable routes, especially if not booked from their own website.
 

johnnycache

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Thanks for the contributions so far. My approach was this. Littlehaven has two possible related routeing points Three Bridges and Horsham. If the fare from Horsham to London is the same as (or lower than) Littlehaven to London then Horsham is an appropriate routeing point. The fares are the same today and as far back as my information goes. The rule says you should take the most direct route to the routeing point and then any permitted routes from there. This I take to mean you can go from Littlehaven to Horsham and then on to London either via Dorking or via Crawley (which involves passing through Littlehaven). I don't think doubling back is allowed when using the permitted routes from the routeing point but I think it is ok in this case where you have to go to the routeing point first. I'm not very confident about my view so thought I'd check it out with you guys!
 

RJ

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Hmmm - does the NRG account for choosing an ARP you don't actually pass through?
 

maniacmartin

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National Routeing Guide in Detail said:
FINDING APPROPRIATE ROUTEING POINTS
Any routeing point can be used, provided it does not
· use routes not permitted for the journey
· cause doubling back (passing through the same station twice between origin
and destination)
· make the journey double back through the origin or destination station unless
the fare permits (for example Ealing Broadway to Swindon via London).
· allow travel by a route which does not satisfy the fare-check rule. This rule is
explained in the box below.

This to me would suggest that Horsham is not a valid RP for a journey that doubles back through Littlehaven.
 

johnnycache

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Further thoughts:

FINDING APPROPRIATE ROUTEING POINTS

Any routeing point can be used, provided it does not:
i) use routes not permitted for the journey
ii) cause doubling back (passing through the same station twice between origin and destination)
iii) make the journey double back through the origin or destination station unless the fare permits (for example Ealing Broadway to Swindon via London).
iv) allow travel by a route which does not satisfy the fare-check rule.

Commentary:

i) use routes not permitted for the journey

I’m not sure when this could be true except perhaps if the routeing was “not via x” and all the routes from a routeing point were via x

ii) cause doubling back (passing through the same station twice between origin and destination)

Using Horsham as a (related) routeing point does not inevitably lead to doubling back as it is possible to travel Littlehaven-Horsham-Dorking-London
If one allows that Littlehaven to Horsham is allowed then, at least for a season ticket, Littlehaven-Horsham-Three Bridges-London is allowed

iii) make the journey double back through the origin or destination station unless the fare permits (for example Ealing Broadway to Swindon via London).

Littlehaven is in the position of Ealing Broadway in the example given. However (as stated above) there is another route that does not involve doubling back (Littlehaven-Horsham-Dorking-London). Therefore you could argue that Horsham is not disqualified as a routeing point. Having chosen Horsham as a routeing point then all the permitted routes from Horsham are valid.

iv) Horsham does satisfy the fare-check rule as Horsham-London and Littlehaven-London are priced the same.
 
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