• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Liverpool City Region Franchising model (Echo 20/02/20)

Status
Not open for further replies.

L401CJF

Established Member
Joined
16 Oct 2019
Messages
1,444
Location
Wirral
As reported in the following article on the Liverpool Echo Wesbite

The Liverpool City Region is moving towards a radical new bus system where local leaders will take control of routes, fares and timetables as part of a London-style integrated transport network.

Metro Mayor Steve Rotheram has announced that a new franchising model is his "leading option" for improving the region's bus network in a move that will signal the biggest shake-up of the way buses are operated around the region in decades.

Mayor Rotheram believes franchising will be a key way of delivering a London-style integrated public transport network around Merseyside and Halton - and no longer put up with a "second-class" bus network.

A TfL style franchising approach in which bus operators will bid for their routes and a proper integrated ticketing system will be brought in. This has been brought up before by the Metro Mayor, resurfacing the issue to win votes for upcoming region elections?

What are your thoughts?
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

higthomas

Member
Joined
27 Nov 2012
Messages
1,125
I've decided that the answer to pretty much every question in politics is "money". This is no different.
 

carlberry

Established Member
Joined
19 Dec 2014
Messages
3,169
Is this the same Liverpool that closed most of it's bus lanes as a way of improving things for car drivers? I look forward to the same people being in charge of buses!
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,540
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Definitely in support. Integration with the excellent Merseyrail should be a priority.

Liverpool is already better at that than some, but with a German-style local rail network with plenty of capacity (both as it is and with follow-on orders of units if required), a German-style fully integrated bus system (i.e. using buses primarily for railheading in areas where rail is available for that) should also be possible.
 
Last edited:

Llandudno

Established Member
Joined
25 Dec 2014
Messages
2,178
Definitely in support. Integration with the excellent Merseyrail should be a priority.

Liverpool is already better at that than some, but with a German-style local rail network with plenty of capacity (both as it is and with follow-on orders of units if required), a German-style fully integrated bus system (i.e. using buses primarily for railheading in areas where rail is available for that) should also be possible.
I am seem to recall pre-deregulation they tried this sort of integration thingy!! at Waterloo, Kirkby, Garston, Formby, Maghull,
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,540
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
I am seem to recall pre-deregulation they tried this sort of integration thingy!! at Waterloo, Kirkby, Garston, Formby, Maghull,

And it largely worked I believe. It still happens, quite a lot of bus services run to/from local Merseyrail stations instead of just Liverpool city centre. When you have good rapid transit rail with good coverage and slow road speeds it does to some extent happen naturally.
 

Llandudno

Established Member
Joined
25 Dec 2014
Messages
2,178
And it largely worked I believe. It still happens, quite a lot of bus services run to/from local Merseyrail stations instead of just Liverpool city centre. When you have good rapid transit rail with good coverage and slow road speeds it does to some extent happen naturally.
Yes, it did kind of work but bus routes were deliberately truncated to terminate at these interchange stations forcing people onto the trains.

Pre 1986 there were only two cross-river bus routes:
New Brighton via Liscard to Liverpool
Heswall to Liverpool

There were numerous local routes based around feeding Waterloo, Kirkby, Formby and Maghull Stations, plus the 84 from Garston Station to Speke via the Airport old entrance.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,540
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
What helps with Merseyside is that once you get out of the main bulk of the city it's very much "beads on a string", with large settlements centring on Merseyrail stations, so it does lend itself very well to this method of operation.

There is however a very large bulk of the city centring on West Derby and another on Woolton/Gateacre that doesn't and would need to retain direct bus services to central Liverpool.
 

Statto

Established Member
Joined
8 Feb 2011
Messages
3,208
Location
At home or at the pub
Is this the same Liverpool that closed most of it's bus lanes as a way of improving things for car drivers? I look forward to the same people being in charge of buses!

This is the same Liverpool that want to change all the routes in the City Centre so they start/terminate at Queen Square or Liverpool One, no longer serve deep into the City Centre, who have had so much opposition from the scheme that the plans have been put back until the Spring.
 

NorthernSpirit

Established Member
Joined
21 Jun 2013
Messages
2,184
Is this the same Liverpool that closed most of it's bus lanes as a way of improving things for car drivers? I look forward to the same people being in charge of buses!

Don't forget that it's the same Liverpool that scrapped the Merseytram too.
 
Joined
15 Sep 2019
Messages
708
Location
Back in Geordieland!
My understanding, and I am by no means an expert,is that these franchises put the authority in charge at risk financially should massive losses be incurred.
Is this the case?
 

carlberry

Established Member
Joined
19 Dec 2014
Messages
3,169
My understanding, and I am by no means an expert,is that these franchises put the authority in charge at risk financially should massive losses be incurred.
Is this the case?
It would depend on the nature of the franchise. They could be scaled up version of the current subsidised routes arrangement where most of the risk is removed through the contract (to allow for inflation for example) or specified via the arrangement for where the fare box revenue ends up. (i.e. if the operator retains the paid fares they have some risk or reward, if the LA gets paid the fares then they have the risk/reward). Mostly the real costs wont be known until the franchise bids have arrived and, at that point, it'll be a case of deciding which of the more pie in the sky ideas have to be dropped because the magic money tree is suddenly having a bad year.
 

S&CLER

Member
Joined
11 Jan 2020
Messages
785
Location
southport
And it largely worked I believe. It still happens, quite a lot of bus services run to/from local Merseyrail stations instead of just Liverpool city centre. When you have good rapid transit rail with good coverage and slow road speeds it does to some extent happen naturally.

The conclusion drawn from the experiments in the 1980s was that bus-rail integration attracted custom in a belt 4 to 10 miles from the city centre; beyond that, passengers found bus journeys too lengthy; for less than 4 miles there was no advantage over a direct bus journey. The public were very unwilling to make a long walk at the destination end. This partly explains why earlier bus-rail experiments before the opening of the Link line in 1977 all failed: Exchange station was just too far from where the off-peak traffic wanted to go. The other reasons were that zone ticketing hadn't yet been introduced then, the bus companies were not exactly cooperative in issuing through tickets (they refused to do so on Garston-Speke, I read), and the busmen's unions were fearful of job losses. I recall a bus inspector (remember them?) telling me that "we're being sacrificed to the great god railway".

It was also found that buses going direct to rail station yards worked better than buses that just happened to pass a station; and that the public were slow to change their habits. The Maghull circulars built up slowly but now are very popular. Waterloo interchange apparently had 29 buses an hour in the peak, but the Liverpool-Bootle-Crosby area always had lots more buses than most other parts of Merseyside (and even trams operated by the LOR at one time). When I'm in Liverpool nowadays I'm often amazed by the apparent frequency of buses to St Helens, but I don't know if the electrics have taken some of their patronage away.
 

ivanhoe

Member
Joined
15 Jul 2009
Messages
929
And it largely worked I believe. It still happens, quite a lot of bus services run to/from local Merseyrail stations instead of just Liverpool city centre. When you have good rapid transit rail with good coverage and slow road speeds it does to some extent happen naturally.
Not my experience in the 70/80’s. On the day that Garston Station was reopened and trains Garston to Kirkby were every 15 mins(I think) they introduced service 84 from Speke to Garston Station. At the same time, Route 500 which was limited stop,Speke to Kirkby, was pulled.
Result, it was not a lot quicker to get to Central from Speke and certainly not quicker than the 500.
Reasons, it was timetabled to arrive about 5 mins before Departure of train . Could easily miss that train so you had a waiting time of upto 20 mins for train. In that 20 mins, an 82C would have been near Dingle, about 15 minutes from Lewis’s. By the time you were out of Station, there was little difference in time and people don’t like making unnecessary transport mode changes if they can avoid it. Cost was also a consideration then. The 84 finished in late 70’s, not being a resounding success and it also duplicated the 80 route .
 

ivanhoe

Member
Joined
15 Jul 2009
Messages
929
London style funding on its way too??
As a betting guy, I don’t think I’ll put any cash on that one. I think it’s an opening gambit and what we may see is some halfway house based on developing current partnerships. It would be great to see if they were allowed to, is get Arriva and Stagecoach on board , do away with unnecessary duplication(competition) on routes such as the 82 for example and see where it goes. Stagecoach have unsurprisingly, given their initial thumbs down to franchising.
 

Man of Kent

Member
Joined
5 Jul 2018
Messages
590

Meerkat

Established Member
Joined
14 Jul 2018
Messages
7,420
London style funding on its way too??
TFL is self-funding now isn’t it?
Whilst franchising does seem preferable how much risk is there that the politicians decide the routes on the basis of where they want people to go, and not where people want to go? Rail-heading sounds a bit like that - wouldn’t people rather stay on the bus?
 

TheGrandWazoo

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Feb 2013
Messages
19,969
Location
Somerset with international travel (e.g. across th
TFL is self-funding now isn’t it?
Whilst franchising does seem preferable how much risk is there that the politicians decide the routes on the basis of where they want people to go, and not where people want to go? Rail-heading sounds a bit like that - wouldn’t people rather stay on the bus?

£1.2bn comes from other sources like the congestion charge, and then the £3.4bn on various grants to fund various things.

The TfL bus network has a shortfall of c.£700m IIRC
 

Meerkat

Established Member
Joined
14 Jul 2018
Messages
7,420
£1.2bn comes from other sources like the congestion charge, and then the £3.4bn on various grants to fund various things.

The TfL bus network has a shortfall of c.£700m IIRC
The congestion charge must count as self-funding.
Various grants for what? If it’s capital projects then it isn’t really relevant for a comparison with running a bus system in Liverpool.
 

markymark2000

On Moderation
Joined
11 May 2015
Messages
3,538
Location
Western Part of the UK
Commercial rents as well could be included in how TFL make money. Shops at tube stations and renting out arches. Liverpool might manage the arches (albeit only a few arches mainly Bootle to Liverpool) but the shops at train stations are all Merseyrail owned stations. And even then you wouldn't have as many places for renting out units compared to London.
 

carlberry

Established Member
Joined
19 Dec 2014
Messages
3,169
Commercial rents as well could be included in how TFL make money. Shops at tube stations and renting out arches. Liverpool might manage the arches (albeit only a few arches mainly Bootle to Liverpool) but the shops at train stations are all Merseyrail owned stations. And even then you wouldn't have as many places for renting out units compared to London.
Network Rail had to sell off most of the arches that it owned a few years ago so, I suspect, that includes the Liverpool ones.
 

TheGrandWazoo

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Feb 2013
Messages
19,969
Location
Somerset with international travel (e.g. across th
The congestion charge must count as self-funding.
Various grants for what? If it’s capital projects then it isn’t really relevant for a comparison with running a bus system in Liverpool.

Some are capital projects e.g. crossrail but others are not and are therefore gained from GLA precept or business rates retention

Only if you're allowed to run it, I suspect the car drivers of Liverpool would be as supportive of the idea as those in Manchester.

Absolutely. That's the point - it requires funding and a substantial chunk comes from the congestion charge. Is Steve Rotheram proposing that....?

Commercial rents as well could be included in how TFL make money. Shops at tube stations and renting out arches. Liverpool might manage the arches (albeit only a few arches mainly Bootle to Liverpool) but the shops at train stations are all Merseyrail owned stations. And even then you wouldn't have as many places for renting out units compared to London.

Indeed, part of the £1.2bn does come from commercial deals and sponsorship and yes, I'd agree that you've more chance of generating it in London. They will already be selling some commercial space, so how much more will they get? And if they aren't, do we think they can do it?
 

ivanhoe

Member
Joined
15 Jul 2009
Messages
929
The more I think about a 'London Style' system for Liverpool, I can see as many pitfalls as positives, given the current funding crisis in LA's. I see the issues as follows:
95% of the expertise (my guess) in running buses lay with the Bus Companies. Merseytravel fills in the gaps by providing funding for services that are not commercial. Such examples would be 166 ,188 and some very early or late buses and community services. Merseytravel provides very good information on its website, in respect of timetables.
Current Partnerships , which were quite innovative when first set up, are to a great extent protecting the status quo of the 2 major operators. They are providing a level of service on the routes which are almost turn up and go. Is it overkill,?
The bus operations are very good in Liverpool but the biggest concern, as in any city, is congestion. This is the area which provides so many problems in the peaks.
Merseytravel has to liaise, encourage and insist on better traffic prority for buses. When people in cars see buses going past them in the morning with a good possibility of getting there before the car, then that will help to decrease congestion. A congestion charge with no improvement in Public Transport, is just a tax. You have to get Mayor Anderson on board as well because it's his roads that need bus priority. He's stuck for cash.
Although I like the idea of a mini London scheme, the answer (without any extra cash) is to try build on the partnership, improving bus priority and perhaps come up with a ticketing scheme which is universal in Merseyside. No competing weekly tickets, but a scheme for the whole region.
Is it pie in the sky? Does anybody really believe the franchise system is appropriate for cities like Liverpool? Oh, and sort out the mess with' youth fares' and its misuse!
 

markymark2000

On Moderation
Joined
11 May 2015
Messages
3,538
Location
Western Part of the UK
Current Partnerships , which were quite innovative when first set up, are to a great extent protecting the status quo of the 2 major operators. They are providing a level of service on the routes which are almost turn up and go. Is it overkill,?
No, it isn't all overkill. You only have to go on some of these routes to see how busy they can be. I would argue that the 86 could cope without the Garston Arriva trips but then it would give Stagecoach an advantage over Arriva. 14s, 53s and 82s seem quite spot on. The majoirty of the high frequency routes in Merseyside are used enough for the frequencies. If 1 bus is late, you do find empty buses but that is due to bus bunching and operators not wanting to undertake complex solutions to speed up the late bus.

The bus operations are very good in Liverpool but the biggest concern, as in any city, is congestion. This is the area which provides so many problems in the peaks.
Merseytravel has to liaise, encourage and insist on better traffic prority for buses. When people in cars see buses going past them in the morning with a good possibility of getting there before the car, then that will help to decrease congestion. A congestion charge with no improvement in Public Transport, is just a tax. You have to get Mayor Anderson on board as well because it's his roads that need bus priority. He's stuck for cash.
Cash isn't Mayor Andersons problem. His issue is that he doesn't like buses and fully supports cars. What sort of public transport supporting mayor would try to ban buses from the city centre but have zero issues with cars? There are road markings in the city which also favour cars (Bottom of Hanover Street). though no proof, it was rumored that Joe Anderson has shared in a car park company. It's worth pointing out that Joe Anderson was the one who decided to SCRAP bus lanes. If you look on Picton Road just near the railway bridge, you can see the lights where bus priority once stood, now it is turned into a right turn lane and the old bus lane is now just a through carriageway.
Need it be noted that it's also Joe Anderson who is pushing for the M62 to extend underground into Liverpool. Something which benefits... You guessed it, cars.

Although I like the idea of a mini London scheme, the answer (without any extra cash) is to try build on the partnership, improving bus priority and perhaps come up with a ticketing scheme which is universal in Merseyside. No competing weekly tickets, but a scheme for the whole region.
There is universal ticketing in Merseyside. It's called Solos, Trios and Saveaways. Weekly tickets offer better prices for those who only use certain operators, Solos can be used on ALL buses. Trios can be used on buses, trains and the ferry depending on the zones which you choose.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,540
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Anderson had a point about bus lanes, though. Most bus lanes in the UK are poorly designed and ineffective, filtering back into the car lane just in time to be stuck in congestion at the junction. What is needed is a shorter bus lane and traffic-light overtakes at every set of lights so the bus breezes past and cuts in front each time, including turning right from the left hand lane.
 

TheGrandWazoo

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Feb 2013
Messages
19,969
Location
Somerset with international travel (e.g. across th
Anderson had a point about bus lanes, though. Most bus lanes in the UK are poorly designed and ineffective, filtering back into the car lane just in time to be stuck in congestion at the junction. What is needed is a shorter bus lane and traffic-light overtakes at every set of lights so the bus breezes past and cuts in front each time, including turning right from the left hand lane.

Perhaps but that wasn't why he did it.

"Ultimately, the evidence we have indicates that bus lanes are not benefiting city as planned – either for buses or cars. This trial is about investigating this further so we can make an informed decision over whether the permanent removal of bus lanes will bring benefits to the city. Bus lanes are one of the biggest sources of complaints for our highways team. We receive a huge number of objections from motorists who stray by mistake into bus lanes and are hit with a fine of at least £30. We know they are a source of frustration for many people in the city. We have listened – and we are taking action.

Some people have suggested to me that we shouldn’t do this because the bus lanes generate income of £700,000-a-year for the council. But in my view it would be immoral to treat motorists as a cash cow, and that is why my priority is making sure that we take a look at this properly."


Blatant populism and nothing to do with improving bus lane design.
 

markymark2000

On Moderation
Joined
11 May 2015
Messages
3,538
Location
Western Part of the UK
Anderson had a point about bus lanes, though. Most bus lanes in the UK are poorly designed and ineffective, filtering back into the car lane just in time to be stuck in congestion at the junction. What is needed is a shorter bus lane and traffic-light overtakes at every set of lights so the bus breezes past and cuts in front each time, including turning right from the left hand lane.
Do you mean a bit like this? (move the map around to see in the 2012, it was a bus lane with a traffic light overtake, by 2018, the lights are still there but the bus lane taken out of use.

2012: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.4...xmMs5hbA!2e0!5s20121001T000000!7i13312!8i6656
2018: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.4...YVrsgMMw!2e0!5s20150401T000000!7i13312!8i6656
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top