Liverpool Exchange

[frodshamfella]

I recently came across a photo of a DMU in Liverpool Exchange Station, this might have been in the 1970s. The service was operating to Bolton direct, I had no idea this was possible, but thinking about it, it must have routed via Kirkby. I understand this was the terminus for Scottish service too, I don't know where else you could reach from Liverpool Exchange ?

 

[Scouseinmanc]

I recently came across a photo of a DMU in Liverpool Exchange Station, this might have been in the 1970s. The service was operating to Bolton direct, I had no idea this was possible, but thinking about it, it must have routed via Kirkby. I understand this was the terminus for Scottish service too, I don't know where else you could reach from Liverpool Exchange ?

Exchange used to be the terminus for most points North:

Southport, Blackpool, Rochdale, Bury, Bolton, Preston, Bradford, Leeds, Newcastle, Windermere, Glasgow & Edinburgh, to name a few

 

[Ploughman]

What was the date of closure of Exchange?

 

[Ploughman]

Just found out 30/04/1977
According to 6 bells Junction there was a farewell rail tour on 9th of April with a route from Exchange to Man Victoria via Kirkby with a return via Southport.
http://www.sixbellsjunction.co.uk/70s/770409wr.html

 

[Scouseinmanc]

What was the date of closure of Exchange?

Deleted!

 

[70014IronDuke]

Funny you should ask about Scottish services to Exchange just now. 49 years ago tomorrow, the station welcomed the last scheduled standard-gauge steam-hauled passenger train in the UK. It was the Liverpool portion of a Glasgow+Edinburgh express to Manchester and Liverpool. Driven by one Ernie Hayes, of Lostock Hall MPD.

Exchange was the terminus for the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway. I suppose you could say the L&Y was not a "glamour" railway, it didn't serve London on its own metals, and it is perhaps the least appreciated pre-grouping railways vis-a-vis its importance in terms of traffic - which was substantial.

 

[markindurham]

I was on the last train out of Exchange. (It was the last train through Kirkby too). Went to Wigan Wallgate, then crossed over to the WCML, St Helens & into Lime Street. It was a Friday night.

I was then on the first train into Central (Low Level) from Southport on the following Monday, and the following Monday I was on the first service round the Loop.

Sadly the collection of tickets I had for those trains are long gone

 

[Ploughman]

I did the same thing with the last to Wigan and first into Central as well.
I thought that one of the Electrics was actually the last, may have been unplanned though.

 

[AndrewE]

...It was the Liverpool portion of a Glasgow+Edinburgh express to Manchester and Liverpool. Driven by one Ernie Hayes, of Lostock Hall MPD.

Shall we see these services again? I'm hoping so.

The Belgians have managed for years to combine A and B to C and D using 3 short EMU's with gangway connections, so only passengers wanting 1 of the 4 options move within the train en route: Just combine at Preston and split at Carstairs, and Bob's your uncle! Maximum journey options for "customers" with the minimum of paths taken up...

Why [oh why] can't we manage it?

 

[SouthDevonian]

As mentioned above, Exchange was the L&Y’s main station for Liverpool. It competed for traffic to Manchester (using the L&Y’s Victoria station) with the LNW route (Lime St to Manchester Exchange) and the Cheshire Lines route (Liverpool Central High Level to Manchester Central). Surprisingly the best times were about the same for all 3 lines despite the L&Y line being longer and having adverse gradients (although there was a Wigan Wallgate avoiding line to avoid the speed restrictions there).

A couple of Manchester trains continued on to York / Newcastle using the L&Y trans-Pennine line via Rochdale & Wakefield Kirkgate as far as Altofts Junction where it joined the ex-NER line. A pair of summer Saturday trains went from Exchange to Scarborough and back but avoided Manchester by travelling via Wigan, Bolton, Bury Knowsley St & Rochdale.

The L&Y line between Liverpool & Preston was the most direct and so was the obvious route for services to Blackpool & Scotland

 

[frodshamfella]

I travelled last weekend from Liverpool to Preston via Ormskirk, not knowing this route very well, I was surprised to see how intact the curve is from the Southport line at Burscough. It has not been built on at all, and would if it ever happens be, I would have thought an easy to re connect link, therefore allowing Southport to Preston direct, which must be a useful thing.

If Merseyrail was ever to extend on to Preston and allow a direct service via Ormskirk, again great, the connections are a bit hap hazard as the Ormskirk to Preston train, has erratic timings.

 

[Bevan Price]

I travelled last weekend from Liverpool to Preston via Ormskirk, not knowing this route very well, I was surprised to see how intact the curve is from the Southport line at Burscough. It has not been built on at all, and would if it ever happens be, I would have thought an easy to re connect link, therefore allowing Southport to Preston direct, which must be a useful thing.

If Merseyrail was ever to extend on to Preston and allow a direct service via Ormskirk, again great, the connections are a bit hap hazard as the Ormskirk to Preston train, has erratic timings.

I think that the most we can ever expect is for Merseyrail Electric to be extended from Ormskirk to Burscough Bridge via the south to west curve at Burscough.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think that the most we can ever expect is for Merseyrail Electric to be extended from Ormskirk to Burscough Bridge via the south to west curve at Burscough.

TBH I think that is the most sensible outcome, as it allows an hourly single-unit service from Preston to Burscough Bridge via the North Curve. Rebuild the station to have two through platforms, one short and one long (ideally a big island containing the bays, but other options might work if there's not space), and Robert is your father's brother - a West Lancs transport interchange enabling a load of new journey opportunities.

 

[route101]

I travelled last weekend from Liverpool to Preston via Ormskirk, not knowing this route very well, I was surprised to see how intact the curve is from the Southport line at Burscough. It has not been built on at all, and would if it ever happens be, I would have thought an easy to re connect link, therefore allowing Southport to Preston direct, which must be a useful thing.

If Merseyrail was ever to extend on to Preston and allow a direct service via Ormskirk, again great, the connections are a bit hap hazard as the Ormskirk to Preston train, has erratic timings.

Funnily enough i went past Burscough yesterday and thought the curve was still there ! The connection at Ormskirk onto the merseyrail was 1 minute .
Have any railtours traversed the merseyrail 3rd rail network?

 

[Bevan Price]

Funnily enough i went past Burscough yesterday and thought the curve was still there ! The connection at Ormskirk onto the merseyrail was 1 minute .
Have any railtours traversed the merseyrail 3rd rail network?

Yes - a few, but only using their own EMU to cover the complete network. No "external" / loco-hauled stock is known to have traversed the "tunnel" sections.

Many years ago, a Class 25 plus hauled stock reached West Kirby & New Brighton, but used the now derelict line from Rock Ferry through the Birkenhead Docks.

 

[JohnW1]

Sandhills Goods pilot stabled at Exchange, 1974
02004 - http://www.flickr.com/photos/pics-by-john/6317198277/

 

[route101]

Yes - a few, but only using their own EMU to cover the complete network. No "external" / loco-hauled stock is known to have traversed the "tunnel" sections.

Many years ago, a Class 25 plus hauled stock reached West Kirby & New Brighton, but used the now derelict line from Rock Ferry through the Birkenhead Docks.

I see , very much its own system even if its heavy rail

 

[Bevan Price]

Originally Posted by Bevan Price View Post
Yes - a few, but only using their own EMU to cover the complete network. No "external" / loco-hauled stock is known to have traversed the "tunnel" sections.

I see , very much its own system even if its heavy rail

I think that the tunnel sections are the major problem, plus the lack of available paths. As far as I know, loco hauled coaching stock has never been checked to see if it would fit in the tunnel sections. IF it could fit in the tunnels, any tour would almost certainly have to occur overnight, when the normal services are not operating - a daytime tour would create too many problems over timekeeping of the electric services.
.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Originally Posted by Bevan Price View Post
Yes - a few, but only using their own EMU to cover the complete network. No "external" / loco-hauled stock is known to have traversed the "tunnel" sections.

Well...technically... One of the old Sandite units (aka the "old greasers" as a kid) was a couple of Class 501 trailers sandwiching a Class 73.

 

[Taunton]

We moved from Somerset to The Wirral, must have been about 1965, and I made a couple of visits to Exchange while there was still steam around on local services.

One of the surprises was a turntable right at the platform ends, squashed between the approach tracks. Saw a Black 5 turned on it, and its buffers at both ends overhung the tracks at the midpoint. Must have been interlocked with the signalling somehow.

Both Exchange and Liverpool Central seemed to spend midday/weekends as storage points for LMS non-corridor sets, which still were universal on those local services which were not multiple unit. A hangover from the old days was an express service, every 2 hours I think, to Wigan, Manchester Victoria, and on to Yorkshire, which was worked by North Eastern BRCW dmus.

 

[markindurham]

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/l/liverpool_exchange/index.shtml

https://signalbox.org/diagrams.php?id=347

A couple of links which may be of interest. Not everybody is aware of these sites. A warning to newbies - they are addictive!

 

[markindurham]

Sandhills Goods pilot stabled at Exchange, 1974
02004 - http://www.flickr.com/photos/pics-by-john/6317198277/

From memory, there were 4 of these, 02001-4, for these duties - the last of their class, and the only ones to carry TOPS numbers

 

[Taunton]

From memory, there were 4 of these, 02001-4, for these duties - the last of their class, and the only ones to carry TOPS numbers

I know I'm being pernickety here but one at least of these four was never renumbered, they had been transferred from Bank Hall when that closed to Allerton, and years after the TOPS renumbering it was still sat pushed up against the buffers on the siding nearest the WCML fast lines. It was very heavily stripped for parts, I seem to recall the engine and covers were gone, but the cab side sheets with the old number were still there. Theoretically it was still on the books.

Ah, since writing that, did a web search, here's a photo of it there in 1976. Still had the D prefix and green livery even, probably the original factory paint.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/martynhilbert/16209851068/

 

[markindurham]

I know I'm being pernickety here but one at least of these four was never renumbered, they had been transferred from Bank Hall when that closed to Allerton, and years after the TOPS renumbering it was still sat pushed up against the buffers on the siding nearest the WCML fast lines. It was very heavily stripped for parts, I seem to recall the engine and covers were gone, but the cab side sheets with the old number were still there. Theoretically it was still on the books.

Ah, since writing that, did a web search, here's a photo of it there in 1976. Still had the D prefix and green livery even, probably the original factory paint.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/martynhilbert/16209851068/

Thanks for that - great photo

 

[L+Y]

Both Exchange and Liverpool Central seemed to spend midday/weekends as storage points for LMS non-corridor sets, which still were universal on those local services which were not multiple unit. A hangover from the old days was an express service, every 2 hours I think, to Wigan, Manchester Victoria, and on to Yorkshire, which was worked by North Eastern BRCW dmus.

It ran up until 1968, I think- with a single morning direct train to Leeds continuing on until 1970- off the top of my head.

By 1970 only the Glasgow train remained as an express serving Exchange, and after that, just the DMUs to Bolton and EMUs to Ormskirk and Southport- Ormskirk was severed in May 1970.

 

[Welshman]

Both Exchange and Liverpool Central seemed to spend midday/weekends as storage points for LMS non-corridor sets, which still were universal on those local services which were not multiple unit. A hangover from the old days was an express service, every 2 hours I think, to Wigan, Manchester Victoria, and on to Yorkshire, which was worked by North Eastern BRCW dmus.

The dmu service, scheduled to be worked by Cl.110 units, was introduced as part of the Calder Valley dieselisation of Jan. 1962.

The services were every 2 hours from 0830-2030, with the 0830, 1030 & 1230 extending to Harrogate, and the remaining services terminating at Leeds Central. They all called at Wigan Wallgate with the exception of the 1830 which went via the Pemberton Loop, and reached Manchester Victoria in a very creditable 45 minutes. In those days, there were "fast" lines from Crow Nest Junction and the Brindle Heath flyover.

I can't recall when the through service actually ended, as I went away to University in 1967, but I have a feeling it might have been shortly after the time Leeds Central closed in 1967.

 

[Bevan Price]

The dmu service, scheduled to be worked by Cl.110 units, was introduced as part of the Calder Valley dieselisation of Jan. 1962.

The services were every 2 hours from 0830-2030, with the 0830, 1030 & 1230 extending to Harrogate, and the remaining services terminating at Leeds Central. They all called at Wigan Wallgate with the exception of the 1830 which went via the Pemberton Loop, and reached Manchester Victoria in a very creditable 45 minutes. In those days, there were "fast" lines from Crow Nest Junction and the Brindle Heath flyover.

I can't recall when the through service actually ended, as I went away to University in 1967, but I have a feeling it might have been shortly after the time Leeds Central closed in 1967.

Most of the Liverpool Exchange - Manchester Victoria - Leeds services were present in the May 1968 timetable. By the May 1969 timetable, only a single train remained, 08:30 Liverpool - Leeds calling at Sandhills then Manchester Victoria. I suspect that only remained because someone had forgotten to get authorisation for closure of the Wigan Wallgate avoiding line (Pemberton - Westwood Park - Hindley), and it had gone by the May 1970 timetable.

Liverpool Exchange was left with (mostly hourly) trains calling at most stations to Bolton; previously many of these would have continued to Bury Knowsley St. & Rochdale, until that line was closed. One or two peak hour trains ran to Manchester Victoria; a few terminated at Wigan Wallgate.

 

[Welshman]

Most of the Liverpool Exchange - Manchester Victoria - Leeds services were present in the May 1968 timetable. By the May 1969 timetable, only a single train remained, 08:30 Liverpool - Leeds calling at Sandhills then Manchester Victoria. I suspect that only remained because someone had forgotten to get authorisation for closure of the Wigan Wallgate avoiding line (Pemberton - Westwood Park - Hindley), and it had gone by the May 1970 timetable.

Thank you for clarifying the timeline.

 

[Springs Branch]

One other regular service from Liverpool Exchange not mentioned yet was direct trains to/from industrial East Lancashire via Ormskirk & Blackburn. These ran direct from Moss Lane Jn and Lostock Hall Jn, not going into Preston.

Into the early 1960s, these seemed to be timed to cater for old-school businessmen's travel between Colne, Burnley, Accrington, Blackburn and Liverpool and vice versa (at a time when the working day of a business owner or company executive could be much more leisurely than today).

In the 1960 timetable, into Liverpool there was a daily 08:21 from Skipton, stopping most stations via Colne to Blackburn and arriving in Liverpool Exchange at 10:46 (jump in a taxi, couple of business appointments, then maybe a long lunch in the Directors' Dining Room).
In the afternoon there was a 17:32 from Blackburn, direct to Liverpool Exchange (arr 18:30), which had a smart connection at Blackburn out of the afternoon "residential" train from Colne to Blackpool Central.

From Liverpool, shipping or insurance company officers could call on their cotton mill clients using the 09:13 Liverpool Exchange to Blackburn (stopping only at Ormskirk & Burscough Jn, with a good connection forward from Blackburn for East Lancashire stations).
Later in the day, cotton mill owners & the odd prosperous farmer could return from the port city on the 16.40 express from Liverpool Exchange, which stopped and divided at Midge Hall (of all places) into one portion for Blackpool Central and another going express to Blackburn, then most stations via Burnley & Colne to Skipton.

I'd imagine by the 1960s this world would be evaporating with the decline in the area's industries and Liverpool's commercial importance, and especially with people being much more likely to have company cars and drive them on business trips. Not sure exactly when Exchange/ East Lancashire trains ended, but certainly before the Glasgow/Edinburgh, Blackpool and Leeds via Calder Valley services ceased. I doubt this style of travel would transfer from steam to 2-car DMUs.

 

[Taunton]

These ran direct from Moss Lane Jn and Lostock Hall Jn, not going into Preston.

A curiosity, which I can just recall from those youthful steam-hauled services from Exchange, was that the local services from Liverpool to Preston did not take the direct connection onto the WCML like the Glasgow express portions did, but ran through Lostock Hall, stopping at the station and passing the loco shed, then round the curve and into the east side of Preston station, which was semi-separated from the WCML side.